Jesus: Both Son and Father?

[apostolic862004]

How do trinitarians deal with the below passage of scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage clearly states that there is a day coming when the Son will have no power and will be subject to the Father. If the Son is Coequal, Co-eternal, and Co-existing with the Father, then there is coming a day when he will no long be Coequal because he will be subject to the Father and he will have no power or authority. How do you explain that if you believe God is a trininty?

 

[oldhermit]

How do trinitarians deal with the below passage of scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage clearly states that there is a day coming when the Son will have no power and will be subject to the Father. If the Son is Coequal, Co-eternal, and Co-existing with the Father, then there is coming a day when he will no long be Coequal because he will be subject to the Father and he will have no power or authority. How do you explain that if you believe God is a trininty?

A better question is, how can he be subject to another if he is alone in his deity?

 

[trofimus]

How do trinitarians deal with the below passage of scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage clearly states that there is a day coming when the Son will have no power and will be subject to the Father. If the Son is Coequal, Co-eternal, and Co-existing with the Father, then there is coming a day when he will no long be Coequal because he will be subject to the Father and he will have no power or authority. How do you explain that if you believe God is a trininty?

As oldhermit says, I see no problem with submitting of one person to another.

I see a problem in a belief that there is only one person submitting somehow to himself.

 

[oldhermit]

As oldhermit says, I see no problem with submitting of one person to another.

I see a problem in a belief that there is only one person submitting somehow to himself.

I notice he is not willing to examine John 1:1. Looks to me like he is running off to another text and demanding a response to that one rather than dealing with the one he cannot answer.

 

[Noose]

Bingo tourist! You got it! The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one and the same being! Let me give some examples:

Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead.
John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Paul said God raised him from the dead.
Acts 13:30 - But God raised him from the dead.

Who raised him from the dead?

Jesus said the Father would send another comforter.
John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Two verses later, Jesus said he would comfort us.
John 14:18 - I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

Then he said the Holy Ghost is the comforter.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

God (the Father) said he is the first and the last.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Jesus said he is the first and the last.
Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:


Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And that is why Colossians 2:9 says in him is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Verse 10 says that you are COMPLETE in him. When you get Jesus, you don't need anything else because when you get Jesus, you get it all!

This is also why Jesus said to baptize in the NAME(singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. His name(singular) is Jesus!

I can't put it any better than you have, that is all the scripture teaches.

 

[trofimus]

I can't put it any better than you have, that is all the scripture teaches.

It is not. Bible has about 2000 pages.

 

[Noose]

That does not answer why for example Jesus was praying to Father if he can avoid the cross, but that the will of Father must be done.

Or why Father sent His son into the world.

Etc. You need to throw out half of Bible if you want to get rid of Trinity.

Again you people just misunderstand; Jesus being God, becomes the son (authority of the son) so that He demonstrates to us how to relate to the father in heaven, hence the frantic prayers and submission. Once He ascends, He is our Father in heaven, now we take up the authority of the son and the Holy spirit who comes from the Father indwells us- this basically means, He comes in us.
The idea is very simple- Only God lives forever, if anyone is to live forever with God, they must be one with God so that it is said that God is in them and them in God. In the end, we will be all like God or we will be God. The reason these authorities- Father/son are one.

 

[trofimus]

Again you people just misunderstand; Jesus being God, becomes the son (authority of the son) so that He demonstrates to us how to relate to the father in heaven, hence the frantic prayers and submission. Once He ascends, He is our Father in heaven, now we take up the authority of the son and the Holy spirit who comes from the Father indwells us- this basically means, He comes in us.
The idea is very simple- Only God lives forever, if anyone is to live forever with God, they must be one with God so that it is said that God is in them and them in God. In the end, we will be all like God or we will be God. The reason these authorities- Father/son are one.

God did not become son. God send His son.

Thats the difference.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.
J 3:16

 

[blue_ladybug]

Well since God, Jesus and the HS are one and the same, technically God DID become the Son. But He also remained God at the same time.

 

[followjesus]

God did not become son. God send His son.

Thats the difference.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.
J 3:16

absolutely the Gospel IS that God sent His Son to be savior of the World. but in the same way as a father here on earth, is the life in the child God the Father, was in Jesus by the spirit as all of our fathers are in us, our life came from our father so He is in us always and is not seperable from us. that is the same with Jesus. God did indeed send Jesus His Son it is the entire Gospel the prophets always were saying it.

romans 1:1-4 "

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had ​

promised afore by his prophets

in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead"​

without the parenthesis

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead"​

The Gospel is now and always has been that God would send His Son , that whoever would accept His Gospel would be saved. He came as the prophets promised, and then the apostlesare explaining " the messiah the prophets promised has come it is Jesus Christ the Son of God.....He is the One God sent, to announce the Gospel. he is the promised seed of david, the promised seed of Abraham, the promised Messiah of moses, the promised servant of Isaiah, the promised King of Samuel, the propmised shepherd of zechariah and ezekeil, He is Shiloh of the prophets, He is Joshua in the vision of zechariah the High priest who is no longer wearing filthy garments....

the prophets are the best place to grasp who Jesus is. the Son of God the Christ. and His purpose was to give us the spirit

Galatians 4 " Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. "



if people realized He is the SWon of God, they may then realize the offer of the gospel is to be called a Son of God through Him, and of course an Heir of God through His sole Heir Jesus Cjrist His Only begotten Son. theres a reason the gospel speaks of inheritance, inheritance goes to the children, eternal Life is the inheritance offered By Jesus the Son of God.

 

[BillG]

Again you people just misunderstand; Jesus being God, becomes the son (authority of the son) so that He demonstrates to us how to relate to the father in heaven, hence the frantic prayers and submission. Once He ascends, He is our Father in heaven, now we take up the authority of the son and the Holy spirit who comes from the Father indwells us- this basically means, He comes in us.
The idea is very simple- Only God lives forever, if anyone is to live forever with God, they must be one with God so that it is said that God is in them and them in God. In the end, we will be all like God or we will be God. The reason these authorities- Father/son are one.

When he ascended and is now the Father who is he interceding to on behalf of us?

 

[apostolic862004]

A better question is, how can he be subject to another if he is alone in his deity?

As oldhermit says, I see no problem with submitting of one person to another.

I see a problem in a belief that there is only one person submitting somehow to himself.

It makes sense when you understand that the distinction between Father and Son is the distinction between Spirit and flesh, no persons in the Godhead.

Galations 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The Son is not eternal. The Spirit that was in the Son (The Father) is eternal. The Son was made of a woman. He is flesh. The Father is the eternal Spirit of heaven. The Son(flesh) did not exist prior to his birth at Bethlehem. And once the world has ended, and judgement is finished, there will no longer be a need for the Son(flesh) because then, everyone will know beyond any shadow of doubt that he is the everlasting Father.

The bible clearly tells us why the Son came into existence. It was to save humanity and give us a way to access the Father. Once everyone that is going to be redeemed has been redeemed, there is no need for that role anymore. In heaven, you will not need to go through the Son to get to the Father because you will be there with the Father yourself! Right now, we need a mediator. But when the church has been changed from corruptible to incorruptible, we will no longer need a mediator. That was the whole point of Jesus coming, so that we could be reconciled to God!


2 Corinthians 5:19 - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Noose]

God did not become son. God send His son.

Thats the difference.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.
J 3:16

Yeaaa, the difference between me and you; you read the 2000+ pages and conclude that God did not become the messenger, i read these passages, i conclude differently:

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling:“In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord[SUP]a[/SUP] ;make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[SUP]a[/SUP] the Son of God,[SUP]b[/SUP] 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[SUP]c[/SUP] —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”[SUP]d[/SUP]

4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with[SUP]e[/SUP] water, but he will baptize you with[SUP]f[/SUP] the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

The 3 passages talk of the same event, in Malachi, God Almighty says he is coming as a messenger. Isaiah foretells the same events but calls Him God. Mark explains both prophesies and clearly tells us, that Jesus is this messenger who promised to send Himself who is also God Almighty.

 

[apostolic862004]

I notice he is not willing to examine John 1:1. Looks to me like he is running off to another text and demanding a response to that one rather than dealing with the one he cannot answer.

I gave a detailed response to John 1:1. You simply called me crazy and offered no biblical explanation yourself. In everyone of my posts I give scripture to back what I am saying. You guys simply say no that's not true and expect me to respect your opinion. Sorry, but i don't know any of you personally and I am not gonna take your word for anything. Give me scripture to support your claims as I have done in all of my posts.

If you are referring to the fact that you claim I have a bad understanding of Greek, I clearly stated that I am no Greek scholar so i will not make a fool of myself in attempting to debate Greek nuances. Firstly, I can only take the word of accomplished Greek scholars that have made easy references in the English. All the lexicons I've read translate the word "Word" in John 1:1 as "logos" and give the definition as a plan or concept. You may be a Greek scholar but I haven't read any of your works and if yours differ with the hundreds of others that are published, I would tend to believe the majority that have been scrutinized through due process before being published vs the opinion of one unverifiable source.

Secondly, If we cannot read the bible in plain English, and come to the knowledge of the truth without having to study Greek, why is there an English bible at all? I submit to you that the truth is written there in plain English and in the English, One means One every time. Not Three in One, just plain One. One God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And jesus said, Before abraham existed, I always existed (before abraham was, I Am) stating he was around before abraham was even born.

Jesus, when praying, asked the father to glorify him, with the same glory that Jesus had with the father BEFORE creation. Meaning he and the father were together, as two seperate beings before time began

Thomas called Jesus God, Jesus did not (as he alsways would if someone was wrong) correct him.

In Is 48, The god of israel calls Isreal to come near to him, He said he has never spoken in secret, even from the begining, And now the father, and his spirit has sent him (father son and spirit in the OT as three distinct beings)

 

[Noose]

When he ascended and is now the Father who is he interceding to on behalf of us?

The Father comes in us in the form of the Holy spirit.

John 14:23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 16: 12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
.........23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

John 14/15/16 is about this relationship (Father/son/Holy spirit) it is a complicated one but read it carefully.

 

[Noose]

A better question is, how can he be subject to another if he is alone in his deity?

Here is the explanation; Most people have this idea that God is some physical being seated on a throne- i would define God as eternal attributes that are true (meaning that they must be accomplished at certain time) found in His spirit, expressed as His word. So far nothing physical about God.
Example; God is eternal love, found in the spirit of love expressed as His word (Jesus) who took on flesh and died for us.
He is eternal knowledge & wisdom, found in the spirit of knowledge and wisdom, expressed in His word when he created everything. So, the idea is, God is attributes- the reason Jesus says the father is in me and we can't see God/Father.

When God created everything, He used to say "and it is good.." but sin came and destroyed everything meaning that things are bad as we speak. But the son comes to reconcile everything back to the Father and when Paul says that eventually the son will hand over everything to the father and submit, he means that the good (Love/patience/humility/knowledge & wisdom etc) shall be restored to it's original form as it were in the garden of Eden. And the believers here are what we call the Kingdom of God and the believers at this stage have the authority of the son and the Father will be in them and them in the Father so that they become one.
There will be no physical Kingdom being handed over to a physical being.

 

[Noose]

It makes sense when you understand that the distinction between Father and Son is the distinction between Spirit and flesh, no persons in the Godhead.

Galations 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The Son is not eternal. The Spirit that was in the Son (The Father) is eternal. The Son was made of a woman. He is flesh. The Father is the eternal Spirit of heaven. The Son(flesh) did not exist prior to his birth at Bethlehem. And once the world has ended, and judgement is finished, there will no longer be a need for the Son(flesh) because then, everyone will know beyond any shadow of doubt that he is the everlasting Father.

The bible clearly tells us why the Son came into existence. It was to save humanity and give us a way to access the Father. Once everyone that is going to be redeemed has been redeemed, there is no need for that role anymore. In heaven, you will not need to go through the Son to get to the Father because you will be there with the Father yourself! Right now, we need a mediator. But when the church has been changed from corruptible to incorruptible, we will no longer need a mediator. That was the whole point of Jesus coming, so that we could be reconciled to God!


2 Corinthians 5:19 - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I beg to disagree on this one. The son is eternal; don't look at the son as a physical being; the son is one of the authorities of God. The father/son/Holy spirit are all authorities of God and God is eternal. The idea is, only God lives forever and if there's any hopes of anyone living forever with God, they must be one with God- God must be in them and them in God.
That's the whole point of God having these authorities- He becomes son so that He demonstrates in actions how we the sons should relate to Him as the Father. As soon as He (the Father) comes in us in the form of the Holy spirit, we are given the RIGHT to be called the son of God - meaning that we are now with the authority of God because we are part of God. With this authority, we can hope to overcome death (which is usually eternal) and being one with God, we shall live forever.

 

[BillG]

Here is the explanation; Most people have this idea that God is some physical being seated on a throne- i would define God as eternal attributes that are true (meaning that they must be accomplished at certain time) found in His spirit, expressed as His word. So far nothing physical about God.
Example; God is eternal love, found in the spirit of love expressed as His word (Jesus) who took on flesh and died for us.
He is eternal knowledge & wisdom, found in the spirit of knowledge and wisdom, expressed in His word when he created everything. So, the idea is, God is attributes- the reason Jesus says the father is in me and we can't see God/Father.

When God created everything, He used to say "and it is good.." but sin came and destroyed everything meaning that things are bad as we speak. But the son comes to reconcile everything back to the Father and when Paul says that eventually the son will hand over everything to the father and submit, he means that the good (Love/patience/humility/knowledge & wisdom etc) shall be restored to it's original form as it were in the garden of Eden. And the believers here are what we call the Kingdom of God and the believers at this stage have the authority of the son and the Father will be in them and them in the Father so that they become one.
There will be no physical Kingdom being handed over to a physical being.

No physical Kingdom?

Please explain

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Father comes in us in the form of the Holy spirit.

John 14:23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 16: 12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
.........23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

John 14/15/16 is about this relationship (Father/son/Holy spirit) it is a complicated one but read it carefully.

[FONT=&quot]Luke 11: 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [/FONT]your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

[FONT=&quot]John 14: 26 But the Helper, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you[/FONT]

The father did not send himself. He sent another person.