Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Apr 26, 2021
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The word actual word in the Greek is 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up.' Those saints who came out of their tombs after Jesus was resurrected, did not get caught up to meet the Lord in the air and therefore it cannot be a rapture. Also, while it is true that they were resurrected, it was similar to when Lazarus was resurrected, which was in their mortal bodies and not in their immortal and glorified bodies and so they all experienced death again. When the saints of Israel are resurrected, so then will those people be resurrected and that in their immortal and glorified bodies.
This is where I have to disagree with you. When the saints arose from their opened graves with a resurrection, they were seen in the holy city by many which is New Jerusalem, not Jerusalem here on earth.

God called Jerusalem Egypt and Sodom where also the Lord was crucified there. (Revelation 11:8)
Jesus also wept over Jerusalem saying their house was left to them desolate. That is hardly the description of the holy city where resurrected saints would be seen.

There is mention of a "second death" and it's not attributed to saints. I don't know any bible doctrine that teaches any saint will die a second time.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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OrphanedRepublican said:
Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.
I want to look more into this idealism of yours. See what I find before answering you. Excellent point made.
While on earth, Jesus and His disciples raised a number of people from the dead, plus the many who came out of their graves at the crucifixion.

The key question regarding a resurrection is this: did any of these people receive an "imperishable body"? The Bible doesn't say this about any of these "raised from the dead". Scholars say that Lazarus died again.
 

Absolutely

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Ah, the ye olde word game.


OK, just point me to the verse that has raptured believers going to heaven. Let's absolutely focus on only the rapture verses.

So, where is the mention of going to heaven post rapture?

You really opened yourself up there.
acts 1
mat 25
mat 24
1 thes 4
rev19
rev 14
the last supper dialogue

all off the top of my head. I am sure there are others.

you sit back and generalize verses away.

you will not pick even one of those verses and honestly unpack it.

"we see no fingernail clippers in the bible...therefore there were none"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is the template of your study technique^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 

Absolutely

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At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.
This is for you:

God says "I love you"
 

Absolutely

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This is where I have to disagree with you. When the saints arose from their opened graves with a resurrection, they were seen in the holy city by many which is New Jerusalem, not Jerusalem here on earth.

God called Jerusalem Egypt and Sodom where also the Lord was crucified there. (Revelation 11:8)
Jesus also wept over Jerusalem saying their house was left to them desolate. That is hardly the description of the holy city where resurrected saints would be seen.

There is mention of a "second death" and it's not attributed to saints. I don't know any bible doctrine that teaches any saint will die a second time.
yes
they went to heaven with Jesus.
 

Absolutely

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OrphanedRepublican said:
Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.

While on earth, Jesus and His disciples raised a number of people from the dead, plus the many who came out of their graves at the crucifixion.

The key question regarding a resurrection is this: did any of these people receive an "imperishable body"? The Bible doesn't say this about any of these "raised from the dead". Scholars say that Lazarus died again.
yes
he died again
 
Apr 26, 2021
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In the case of Lazarus, his body was restored the same as other people Jesus brought back. You have a good point. His life restored, he went on living until his death. In that case, he died a second time as did the others Jesus brought back from the dead.

I wasn't thinking of them as the saints that arose at the resurrection at the cross. So, good point. It seems it was appointed for some to die more than once.
 

Absolutely

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In the case of Lazarus, his body was restored the same as other people Jesus brought back. You have a good point. His life restored, he went on living until his death. In that case, he died a second time as did the others Jesus brought back from the dead.

I wasn't thinking of them as the saints that arose at the resurrection at the cross. So, good point. It seems it was appointed for some to die more than once.
there is a saying
"God is bigger than his book"

Jesus told the disciples " not a hair on your head shall be harmed"

...yet all but one died a horrible death of martyredom
 
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The OP doesn't say that gathering of the church is a lie. It says a pre trib secret rapture is the lie.

In both verses that mentions the "gathering" specifically, the context is the end of the age.

2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the rapture/gathering is AFTER the Tribulation and the man of perdition revealed.
NO, those verses prove beyond doubt that the rapture happens BEFORE the great tribulation, if you cant decern that then i'd advise you to pray about it.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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This is where I have to disagree with you. When the saints arose from their opened graves with a resurrection, they were seen in the holy city by many which is New Jerusalem, not Jerusalem here on earth.

God called Jerusalem Egypt and Sodom where also the Lord was crucified there. (Revelation 11:8)
Jesus also wept over Jerusalem saying their house was left to them desolate. That is hardly the description of the holy city where resurrected saints would be seen.
Consider:

In Revelation 11:2, it is also called "the holy city"... but in this verse it says, "... for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they shall TREAD UNDERFOOT [/SHALL BE TRODDEN DOWN / WILL TRAMPLE - *G3961] 42 months"


*G3961 - https://biblehub.com/greek/3961.htm [which word is describing a NEGATIVE SITUATION] - same word (and circumstances) as in Luke 21:24c





[listing of versions: Rev11:2 - https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-2.htm ]
 
Apr 26, 2021
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Consider:

In Revelation 11:2, it is also called "the holy city"... but in this verse it says, "... for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they shall TREAD UNDERFOOT [/SHALL BE TRODDEN DOWN / WILL TRAMPLE - *G3961] 42 months"


*G3961 - https://biblehub.com/greek/3961.htm [which word is describing a NEGATIVE SITUATION] - same word (and circumstances) as in Luke 21:24c





[listing of versions: Rev11:2 - https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-2.htm ]
I think in that case God is referring to Jerusalem. That's in another context. I think in the context of the risen saints, he was speaking of New Jerusalem. I don't pigeon hole God into his meanings obviously. If he calls Jerusalem Sodom one day and calls it a holy city in a divine revelation on another day, it's to his glory to conceal a matter and to our honor to search it out.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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there is a saying
"God is bigger than his book"

Jesus told the disciples " not a hair on your head shall be harmed"

...yet all but one died a horrible death of martyredom
He also told King Josiah he would be gathered to his grave in peace and King Josiah went on to be killed in war. I think in those instances, peace and safety refers with our Father, not our worldly existence.

I think in the resurrection, all hair will be accounted for! :)
 

DWR

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NO, those verses prove beyond doubt that the rapture happens BEFORE the great tribulation, if you cant decern that then i'd advise you to pray about it.
OK----So explain my post #245
 

TheLearner

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Factor in the following;
mark of the beast
flying scorpions
hailstones of fire
No buy or sell
anyone refusing the mark beheaded.
the 4 horsemen
"tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will"

conclusion; gt is future...without a doubt
19 Bible results for “"This generation "” from
King James Version.

Genesis 7:1
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in This generation .

Psalm 12:7
Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from This generation for ever.

Psalm 71:18
Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto This generation , and thy power to every one that is to come.

Psalm 95:10
Forty years long was I grieved with This generation , and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Matthew 11:16
But whereunto shall I liken This generation ? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with This generation , and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with This generation , and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon This generation .

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 8:12
And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth This generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto This generation .

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 7:31
And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of This generation ? and to what are they like?

Luke 11:30
For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to This generation .

Luke 11:31
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of This generation , and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Luke 11:32
The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with This generation , and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of This generation ;

Luke 11:51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of This generation .

Luke 17:25
But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of This generation .

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Every use of This Generation means the generation of Jesus' day on earth.
 

DWR

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Apr 27, 2020
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52 post now and no one has responded to my post # 245.
Good night.
 

Absolutely

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In the case of Lazarus, his body was restored the same as other people Jesus brought back. You have a good point. His life restored, he went on living until his death. In that case, he died a second time as did the others Jesus brought back from the dead.

I wasn't thinking of them as the saints that arose at the resurrection at the cross. So, good point. It seems it was appointed for some to die more than once.
Yes
It says " it is appointed to die once...""

Appointed...not written in stone