Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,128
2,349
113
#21
Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/


The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15
The gathering of the church is not a lie, but a promise from the Lord.

Those scriptures that you posted above are all in regards to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Where the event of the church being gathered is a separate event, which takes place prior to the tribulation. By believing that the church is gathered after Christ returns to the earth, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

I see that by all of the websites that you provided, that your belief is based on the teachings of men that you have adopted and not the word of God. Until you understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events and having different purposes, your conclusion to end-time events will always be in error.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,542
7,663
113
#22
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib. It's that simple.
Only for someone who is so thoroughly confused that he does not know whether up is down or down is up. A typical Lewis Carroll scenario!

1. You will not find a single Scripture which connects the resurrection of the saints with the Second Coming of Christ.

2. You will not find a single Scripture which says that the Rapture happens AFTER the resurrection, other than within nanoseconds of each other.

3. You will not find a single Scripture which connects either the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation to the Rapture.

"'Curiouser and curiouser! ' cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English). "
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,878
1,925
113
#23
Well in that case you would have to have a very good explanation for how the Church comes from Heaven with Christ at His Second Coming, when they are still on earth at that time. Will you propose a bizarre scenario, since both the Tribulation and Great Tribulation precede the Second Coming of Christ? Or will you simply admit that the OP is totally mistaken?
Thanks for asking that because the Bible does directly answer that question:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

At the return of Christ, God brings with Jesus those who are asleep. These are deceased saints who are members of the church. These sleeping saints will be resurrected then the saints who are still alive on Earth, who are not deceased, will be caught up together as one group to meet Jesus in the air - that is the Earth's atmosphere.

So God does not bring the entire church with Jesus at His return, only the sleeping ones. That doesn't create any theological problems with a post-tribulation rapture.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,542
7,663
113
#24
see that by all of the websites that you provided, that your belief is based on the teachings of men that you have adopted and not the word of God.
And then he says that he is hated for no reason.:D
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,542
7,663
113
#25
So God does not bring the entire church with Jesus at His return, only the sleeping ones.
You have completely MISUNDERSTOOD both passages. So do you want a proper exposition or are you satisfied with half-baked ideas?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
6,264
5,263
113
#27
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.
Verse 16 refers to when we who are alive shall meet up with those of the Church who have died. We will then be glorified and arrayed in fine clean white linen to participate in the wedding feast of the Lamb. It is only after this that we come back down with Jesus to rule on Earth for 1000 years. Revelation 19 makes this all very clear...

Revelations
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,878
1,925
113
#28
You have completely MISUNDERSTOOD both passages. So do you want a proper exposition or are you satisfied with half-baked ideas?
I'll be glad to hear your exposition. Enlighten me using scripture.
 
Jan 25, 2019
71
32
18
canada
#30
Thanks for asking that because the Bible does directly answer that question:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

At the return of Christ, God brings with Jesus those who are asleep. These are deceased saints who are members of the church. These sleeping saints will be resurrected then the saints who are still alive on Earth, who are not deceased, will be caught up together as one group to meet Jesus in the air - that is the Earth's atmosphere.

So God does not bring the entire church with Jesus at His return, only the sleeping ones. That doesn't create any theological problems with a post-tribulation rapture.

Wow this is really messed up, it clearly states that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then we will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is without a doubt referring to the rapture not the second coming.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,143
583
113
#31
Wow this is really messed up, it clearly states that the dead in Christ shall rise first and then we will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is without a doubt referring to the rapture not the second coming.
The rapture happens at the second coming when Christ is in the clouds of the Earth. He has literal left heaven and come to the Earth. He doesn't have to set a foot on the Earth for the second coming to have happened. He will even fight at Armageddon in the air. It is not until after the battle that he will set foot on the Earth.
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
58
28
#32
The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Actually, Matthew 24 says they will "see the sign of the Son of man" in heaven. Not the physical appearance of Jesus.

It's important to know that the end of Tribulation does not mean the Second Coming. The trumpets have to sound before He comes. Paul was clear in writing that the Resurrection of the Dead precedes rapturo. It is unclear how much time there is between those events, and while people keep mixing up the two, that theology is based on no proof.
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
58
28
#34
By believing that the church is gathered after Christ returns to the earth, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.
People seem to believe that the Tribulation-Great Tribulation thing is part of the wrath of God, but that is an idea that came from nowhere but their minds.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,143
583
113
#35
Actually, Matthew 24 says they will "see the sign of the Son of man" in heaven. Not the physical appearance of Jesus.
Except you cut off part of the verse that p[roves they indeed do see the physical appearance of Jesus.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why cite the first part of the verse and not the rest of it??
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
58
28
#36
As for the wrath of God, Isaiah already wrote: @Ahwatukee
  • Isa 26:16-21 LORD, in trouble have they sought Thee, silently they poured out a prayer when Thy chastening was upon them.

    Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been at Thy presence, O LORD.

    We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the land; neither are the inhabitants of the world come to life.

    Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise - awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust - for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades.

    Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

    For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
See the text in blue font. It refers to the birth pang Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 & Luke 21 & Mark 15. That's for the children of Zion to conceive Jesus in their hearts!
And after that, he wrote the Resurrection of the dead, which is the beginning of the harvest, the new beginning, and then the wrath of God from which he will hide his people. It gives you the picture of the parable of the weeds from Matthew 13: Collecting the weeds for burning => the gathering-in of the wheat.

And Isaiah clearly identified that the wrath of God is visited when God himself enters from Heaven. (Ref. => 1 Thess 4:16) And there is a certain chastisement of the woman in travail according to him.
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
58
28
#37
Except you cut off part of the verse that p[roves they indeed do see the physical appearance of Jesus.
Why cite the first part of the verse and not the rest of it??
Because the OP quoted "Immediately after the tribulation" from Matthew, and what happens then is actually "the sun will be darkened, ..." and yada yada, and it's not the "coming of the Son over cloud." So there was a slight mistake by the OP.

In other words, I also made a mistake bcs "sign of the Son of man" is also not "immediately after", but after the "darkening of the sun, ... etc"
 
Feb 26, 2021
389
58
28
#38
I think you're right. It says when he comes, he brings his reward with him. People think that he's bringing a reward for "us." Not so, I believe the "his reward" is "us" as we are his reward and he is our reward.

In other words, he comes bringing his saints with him.
In your thinking, will those saints, when allegedly "he comes bringing his saints" from above, be in their new transformed bodies?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
1,294
221
63
#39
I'd like to make two points, atm.

First, I want to say that, before modern medical intervention that are use to 'stall' labor pains, a birth pang simply meant birth is eminent and there is no 'I change my mind, I don't want to...' about it. I bring this up because it has been suggested, around the forums in general, that birth pangs imply a series of 'waves' of events. That's not to say that certain events don't happen in waves, such as the elements of wrath of God but I don't believe this applies to the second coming.

Second, Isaiah 25 claims, "On this mountain the LORD will prepare a feast for all the peoples..." (v.6. cited in 1Cor 15:54), and where, "He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth." (v.8, cited in Rev 7:17 and Rev 21:4)

And in the context of the Slaughter of Gog's Armies, Ezekiel 39:17 writes of God's call to every kind of bird and every beast of the field to come to a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel He is preparing for them. This appears to be reflected in Rev 19:17, when an angel standing in the sun cries out to all the birds flying overhead, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,"...

It appears to me that the Supper of the Lamb is not such a "private" affair in heaven...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
1,294
221
63
#40
I'd like to make two points, atm.

First, I want to say that, before modern medical intervention that are use to 'stall' labor pains, a birth pang simply meant birth is eminent and there is no 'I change my mind, I don't want to...' about it. I bring this up because it has been suggested, around the forums in general, that birth pangs imply a series of 'waves' of events. That's not to say that certain events don't happen in waves, such as the elements of wrath of God but I don't believe this applies to the second coming.

Second, Isaiah 25 claims, "On this mountain the LORD will prepare a feast for all the peoples..." (v.6. cited in 1Cor 15:54), and where, "He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth." (v.8, cited in Rev 7:17 and Rev 21:4)

And in the context of the Slaughter of Gog's Armies, Ezekiel 39:17 writes of God's call to every kind of bird and every beast of the field to come to a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel He is preparing for them. This appears to be reflected in Rev 19:17, when an angel standing in the sun cries out to all the birds flying overhead, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,"...

It appears to me that the Supper of the Lamb is not such a "private" affair in heaven...
Reference to the supper of the Lamb comes 10 verses earlier in Rev 19:7, and so it can be argued, and no doubt will be, that it is a separate supper than that of v.17 yet, but this occurs after the fall of Babylon and immediately before the antichrist and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire...And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh." (v. 21)

So, if the sequence in Rev 19 shows nothing else, it shows the wedding supper happening after the seven bowls of wrath and after the fall of Babylon ( chapter 18) just before (if not involving), and so then after) casting man of sin and the false prophet into the lake of fire.