Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
What are you talking about? *Pre-Tribbers* are the ones who concocted the Secret Rapture theory!!
I am pretrib, but I have never used the word "secret" for the rapture. How can something SO NOISY be kept secret? Everyone in the world will hear the trumpet - but perhaps only those in Christ will know what it is. And when perhaps half the population suddenly is gone, how in the world can that be kept "secret?" Husbands around the world will be looking for their missing wives, wives will be looking for their missing husbands, both husbands and wives will be looking for their kids. It is going to be pandemonium - anything but secret.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
The second coming, resurrection and rapture happen at almost the same time. In Revelation 21 the bride is New Jerusalem and she is already in heaven. Christ and the former dead and those living that were changed all will live on the Earth for the thousand years. After the GWTJ the Father will come to the Earth and live there with everyone. Even NJ descends out of heaven to be on the Earth forever. So, the home where the bridegroom and bride live in is actually the Earth, the new Earth to be specific.
Find a resurrection somewhere in the text of Matthew 24 and perhaps someone will believe you. There is a gathering, but since it is not the gathering of dead people, there is no resurrection involved.

The truth is, when Jesus returns after the marriage, heaven will be emptied as all the saints, OT and NT alike, return with Him, along with millions if not billions of angels. Therefore it is not the church that will be gathered, it will be Jews and Hebrews still alive after the week has finished. God has promised not to leave even one scattered where they are found. All will be returned back to Israel.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
No, it comes from pre-tribbers. Most of them claim the coming at the rapture is secret and isn't really a coming at all because he doesn't step on the ground.
I am pretrib, and I call it a coming because Paul called it a coming. But it will only be a coming to the air.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,123
1,026
113
I am pretrib, and I call it a coming because Paul called it a coming. But it will only be a coming to the air.
Yes only in the air at first but he will step upon ground at some point.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
Yep, just keep making your brash claims. Why is it impossible? Can't you explain that?

2 Thess 2:1 actually says in very plain language that the Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. I shared that in an earlier post to you.


Here's the FACT. There are NO verses that show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Doesn't happen. f

In fact, Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for the wedding supper, and then immediately accompanying Christ to earth to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon.

It is when Jesus comes to earth, ends the Trib, and sets up His Millennial kingdom, that the wedding supper occurs.
But there IS a verse that tells us God will take people to the homes He has prepared for His bride. So what if He did not call them resurrected. Do you deny John wrote that passage? Or do you deny that the church will be taken to the homes?

The truth is, some people have died, SEEN their own mansion, but God had to send them back to earth because people were praying. There can be no doubt there are mansions He has built. They are going to be our homes for seven plus years.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,123
1,026
113
Find a resurrection somewhere in the text of Matthew 24 and perhaps someone will believe you.
Christ didn't speak of in chp 24 but he did in chp 22.

There is a gathering, but since it is not the gathering of dead people, there is no resurrection involved.
The resurrection is already completed before the gathering of the living saints so seeing that gathering at the second coming means the resurrection had already taken place.


The truth is, when Jesus returns after the marriage, heaven will be emptied as all the saints, OT and NT alike, return with Him, along with millions if not billions of angels. Therefore it is not the church that will be gathered, it will be Jews and Hebrews still alive after the week has finished.
No unbelievers are going to be gathered at second coming. Only Christians will be.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
FreeGrace2 said:
1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.

If there are ANy verses that teach that Jesus takes resurrected believers to heaven, please share. It seems you believe there are verses in which the "dots need connecting". Well, be my guest.


You really think so? Then study what Jesus said in Acts 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

So, according to your theory, which resurrection was Jesus referring to? Those "in Christ" or those "not in Christ"?

Then, after you figure that one out, consider what Paul said in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

So, Paul, the greatest theologian in history, taught that there will be ONLY 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Then, after you try to figure that out, consider what else Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So now you get to try to figure out just what does "those who belong to Him" refers to. Do ANY believers from the OT "belong to Christ"? Of course they do.


Just the opoposite is true. In that chapter, we find the Bride GETTING READY for the wedding supper. Just look at the actual wording.

Immediately following that, we find these same people, dressed exactly as they are described preparing for the wedding, accompanying Jesus to earth at the Second Advent.


It is very easy to make claims. It's a totally another thing to actually support your claims with evidence from Scripture.

So, instead of just making claims, go ahead and quote any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That will END all argument. Immediately.


Before you plug in the toaster, you need to AT LEAST think about the wording in Rev 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

So, explain WHY John would write "blessed are those who ARE INVITED tao the wedding supper". The common view re: pretrib rapture is that the wedding supper occurs immediately when the resurrected/raptured believers are taken up to heaven.

If that were true, John would have written "blessed are those who WERE invited". Since it would have occurred 7 years previously.

But because the wedding supper hasn't occurred yet, John's words make total sense. They make no sense if the wedding occurred in heaven when the crowd came back to heaven.


How about a bit of honesty here? Let's look at v.5 as well. v.5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Please explain how the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, noting that both Jesus and Paul clearly indicated that there will be ONE resurrection of the saved and one for the unsaved.


It is I who am "pigeonholed" by God's Word. YES, there is only one resurrection of the saved. And Rev 20:5 calls the post trib resurrection of trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection, the only rational view is that the "rapture" occurs when Christ comew back to earth at the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, (rapture) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (refers back to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Then YOU have a problem with what Jesus and Paul said. Jesus mentioned A resurrection of the saved in Luke 14:14 and Paul noted A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.

There is ONLY ONE resurrection for saved people and one for the unsaved. Rev 20:5 SAYS that the post tribulation resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST one. The one for the saved. And ALL of the saved.

Again, I repeat 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, you need to grapple with this: first, "when He comes". What else could he have meant than the Second Advent? Then, "those who belong to Him". Who would Paul have been referring to? Just the NT believers? Of course not. EVERY believer belongs to Him.

You have no evidence for your theories.


Just keep in mind 1 Cor 15:23. When He comes, those who belong to Him. That's all believers. Just as Rev 20:5 says. That resurrection is the FIRST resurrection.

We know that the SECOND resurrection will be for the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:11-15).


You have demonstrated your failure to understand the Scripture that refutes your theory.
You can try to force the resurrection of all the righteous into ONE resurrection, but you will be wrong. The truth, as you have stated, is that there are only TWO resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 for all people, saved and unsaved. One is titled "the first resurrection. I have called the second one, the "second death resurrection.

What you have missed: Jesus own resurrection was the firstfruits of that "first" or most honorable resurrection. The next wave will be the church, resurrected pretrib. The next wave will be the Old Testament saints, resurrected on the last day - the last 24 hours - of the 70th week. (Their resurrection will be marked by the world's worst earthquake.) Along with the OT saints, the Two witnesses and the beheaded will be resurrected at the same time. God did not tell us that this resurrection for all the righteous would happen all at once. Scripture tells us otherwise.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
Yep, just keep making your brash claims. Why is it impossible? Can't you explain that?

2 Thess 2:1 actually says in very plain language that the Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. I shared that in an earlier post to you.


Here's the FACT. There are NO verses that show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Doesn't happen. f

In fact, Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for the wedding supper, and then immediately accompanying Christ to earth to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon.

It is when Jesus comes to earth, ends the Trib, and sets up His Millennial kingdom, that the wedding supper occurs.
It is easy to explain: the pretrib rapture will happen over 7 years before the gathering "after the trib" of those days. How can two events that will happen 7 years apart also happen at the same time? Impossible.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead. He was assuring His disciples that when they die, they would be with Him, as He was going to prepare a place for them.

Thank you for your opinion.


No, actually, that seems to be what the pretribbers must think when they cite Jn 14:1-3 as some kind of proof of pretrib rapture.

That's the fantasy.


OK, let's go with your theory. Where does the text say that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?

Which verse, specifically?
That is easy: WHERE did Christ go? He said He was to GO and build homes for us. WHERE are the homes?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
No that is incorrect, if thats what you think then your both wrong. The second coming and the rapture cannot happen at the same time that's impossible. How can Christ take His bride to his father's house and return to Earth at the same time, doesn't make any sense. Weird doctrine to say the least.
Actually, the "second coming" by its very title will be His coming as shown by Paul in 1 Thes. 4. Armageddon will be His THIRD coming.

But you nailed the other part: He comes to the clouds, calls up the church, and then takes us to the homes He has prepared. He will not come to Armageddon until about 7 years later.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,123
1,026
113
But you nailed the other part: He comes to the clouds, calls up the church, and then takes us to the homes He has prepared.
That last part is not scriptural. It exists only as a belief. Not one scripture says that.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
All of what you just said is false.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's the devil's wrath. As shown by Revelation 12:12, the great tribulation doesn't occur until immediately after the devil comes to earth with great wrath:

Rev. 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


The Day of the Lord (or the Day of Christ , also known as the day of God's wrath) doesn't occur until after Jesus returns and the church is gathered. It's definitely post-tribulation:

2 Thess. 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
No, not false: its scripture.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you don't want to take God's escape plan, I believe God will honor your faith and leave you behind to either take the mark or be beheaded. I don't know why ANYONE would want that, but it seems many do.

Therefore, your first statement is false. You accused me of being false, when in reality it was YOU. There certainly will be a escape, and God's escape plan is the pretrib rapture. I cannot advise you staying behind.

The great tribulation is not God's wrath, it's the devil's wrath. Anyone making such a statement is showing the readers how little they understand of John's book of Revelation. Yes, OF COURSE when the Beast and False prophet enforce the image and the mark, that is God's doing. I think everyone believes this.

What you miss: while the devil's is using his wrath in the murder of the saints, GOD IS POURING OUT THE VIALS of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. God started getting angry at the 6th seal where John shows us the Day of His wrath begins. This is before the start of the Week which starts at the 7th seal.

Did you catch that? God placed the 70th week INSIDE the Day of the Lord, so that the ENTIRE WEEK will come with His wrath. How could you have missed this? The truth is, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are SIMULTANEOUS - concurrent - happening at the same time. Just so you know, the days of GT will not begin until God sends angels to warn people not to take the mark. That is in Rev. 14. The days of GT Jesus spoke of then will begin late in chapter 14. The beheaded only begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

This is two points in which you have been in error.

The Day of the Lord (or the Day of Christ , also known as the day of God's wrath) doesn't occur until after Jesus returns and the church is gathered. It's definitely post-tribulation:


This is the biggest MYTH you have written yet. Are you and I reading the SAME BOOK?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

...

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Did you catch that? The DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal in chapter 6, NOT IN CHAPTER 19!
Perhaps you don't understand. This is a seal sealing the book, so that no one unauthorized can get that book open until the ONE who sealed it is present. God's goal is to get the book opened, because at the minimum, the trumpets are written INSIDE the book. Did you not read that the FIRST thing to happen when the 7th seal is opened is that the 7 angels each get their trumpet? This is proof positive that NO TRUMPET can sound until all seven seals are opened.

IT IS THEREFORE IMPOSSIBLE to move the 6th seal anywhere. Any attempt to move a seal will certainly be proven as WRONG. (And you said what I wrote was false. The truth is, what YOU wrote is false.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
No, we don't need to make up anything about the pretrib theory.


What you are describing here is the Second Advent. You bet it will be seen by the whole world.


Could you please quote the verse that says this?
Let's see: He came first to die on the cross. CHECK!
His next coming will certainly be His SECOND coming. CHECK!

Where you disagree with scripture is you imagine His coming to Armageddon will be His second coming. No, His second coming is found in 1 Thes. 4. It is a coming before wrath and before the DAY. You need to rethink where you place the DAY. John and the Holy Spirit start the DAY Of the Lord before the 70th week.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
Separate subject. I never said all of prophecy was historically fulfilled. Preterists tend in that direction. I do not.

Jesus did say that he was giving prophecy, in the Revelation, of things to happen *after* the things that presently were. So after detailing the things that were happening at that time with the 7 churches of Asia Jesus went on to show John things that would happen later.

He did not give a precise time--only said these things would follow. The imagery is of the 2nd Coming, but was only intended to show that these things were leading to the 2nd Coming. Each seal opening and each trumpet described things that were happening in history, leading to the 2nd Coming.

The 7 trumpets show God's judgments upon the earth. They have been happening all throughout history, but we know they will culminate towards the end, because we are told the last days will consist of a 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, followed by a great mobilization to Armageddon. Then judgment will be poured out in final measure, leading to the greatest judgment of all--sentencing for eternity.
This sounds like you know what you are talking about. But ANY historian would disagree. I do too. In Rev. 1, John is alive and it is sometime in his life: 95 AD or before. In Rev. 21 John is far out into our future. It makes good sense then that somewhere between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where the church is NOW.

I think the church has been waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr of the church age - who are all waiting for the Judgment to begin - at the 6th seal. The fifth seal is history. The sixth seal is future. Everything John wrote after the 5th seal is events future to use today. See how simple this is?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
That last part is not scriptural. It exists only as a belief. Not one scripture says that.
It seems you read John 14 differently that millions of believers do. Why is that? Could it be you read with preconceptions?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,123
1,026
113
It seems you read John 14 differently that millions of believers do. Why is that? Could it be you read with preconceptions?
Actually it would be that for anyone who thinks Jesus said he would come and take anyone anywhere. He doesn't say that but people like yourself think he did. I showed you that you were wrong before and I will again:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what you think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode here on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!


If you can't read the verses correctly, how can you possibly understand?? You can't.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,881
1,224
113
Hard to have a marriage supper without all of the wedding guests present. That would exclude "those who are alive and remain" on Earth at the time of Christ's return if it occured before Jesus returns.

Are living and breathing saints invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb or not? Because if it occurs before He returns He just left out everyone who hasn't been raptured. Seems highly unlikely.

See how that measures up against 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
I know this thread is fairly old, but I recently encountered someone who said the 144,000 would just "miss out on that" or something along those lines.

I'm like...do you hear yourself? Sucks for them then doesn't it. Everyone else is experiencing what believers should ALL be looking forward to but these ones just "have it rough".

Somewhat disturbing to me because I've tried with some people to just get them to "simulate" that they may be wrong that no one gets a free pass to escape tribulation.

How in anyone's life/walk is the "blessed hope" to escape tribulation...did martyrs have no "blessed hope"? Did they get scammed?

What is persecution? What is martyrdom?

I digress.
 
Jun 12, 2021
398
83
28
I know this thread is fairly old, but I recently encountered someone who said the 144,000 would just "miss out on that" or something along those lines.

I'm like...do you hear yourself? Sucks for them then doesn't it. Everyone else is experiencing what believers should ALL be looking forward to but these ones just "have it rough".

Somewhat disturbing to me because I've tried with some people to just get them to "simulate" that they may be wrong that no one gets a free pass to escape tribulation.

How in anyone's life/walk is the "blessed hope" to escape tribulation...did martyrs have no "blessed hope"? Did they get scammed?

What is persecution? What is martyrdom?

I digress.
It's common trait among God's elect that they will be outcasts and hated for no reason since they were born.
Than after God gives his elect the Holy Spirit, they find out why. It's because we are God's elect=sheep=wheat=children of light.
Yea all nonelects will not listen and obey the truth. So God will send strong delusion on all nonelects. So it's pointless to wrestle with swine.

John 15:16-27
King James Version


16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord (agreement or harmony) hath Christ with Belial (Satan)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

James 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Proverbs 29:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.

Genesis 3:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent (Satan), Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (All nonelects) and her seed (All of God’s elect); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
 
Jun 12, 2021
398
83
28
I know this thread is fairly old, but I recently encountered someone who said the 144,000 would just "miss out on that" or something along those lines.

I'm like...do you hear yourself? Sucks for them then doesn't it. Everyone else is experiencing what believers should ALL be looking forward to but these ones just "have it rough".

Somewhat disturbing to me because I've tried with some people to just get them to "simulate" that they may be wrong that no one gets a free pass to escape tribulation.

How in anyone's life/walk is the "blessed hope" to escape tribulation...did martyrs have no "blessed hope"? Did they get scammed?

What is persecution? What is martyrdom?

I digress.
Isaiah 55:11

King James Version

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So much of the word is being fulfilled.