Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Pilgrimshope

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Welcome to CC. = )

Matthew 24:29-31 (at the "GREAT trumpet") corresponds with same in Isaiah 27:12-13, and no one in that passage is experiencing the "SNATCH [G726 - harpazo / rapture / caught UP]" thing... rather, those folks (spoken of in the Isa27:12-13 context, parallel to Matt24:29-31) will be "gathered" by ANGELS "He shall SEND" to do so, and they will be gathered "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE," as *we* will be) to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM (that is, to an EARTHLY location, not "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"). In every way distinct to that of the event spoken of in 1Th4:17 regarding "the Church which is His body" ("us"), see.


Nice to meet you. Hope to see you around the boards! = )
while I’m not sure of the approach you’ve used I agree with the conclusion thanks for taking the time to post and welcome

possibly consider this also if you are able

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When people have doctrine wrong d they believe they have it right , it’s a volitile situation regarding faith if we approach one another in the wrong spirit it won’t be productive , if we realize the difference in someone who is cleverly deceived , and someone whomis intentionally misrepresenting things there is value

God bless I enjoyed the post
 

Runningman

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Ahwatukee (whose post you quoted) wasn't referring to "raptured" saints ("the Church which is His body"), he was referring to those saints who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," who will exist in / during the 7 year tribulation and [those of them who] will be "still-living" upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, like the ones in the following text (among many other passages speaking of this same point in the chronology):

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 (and its parallel passage in Matt24:42-51): "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal (G347)--the saints in this text will have never lifted off the earth; they will ENTER the MK age (aka "the meal [G347]" / aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"), UPON HIS "RETURN" there (to the earth, where they will still be located), ENTERING the MK in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children--but also whom the Lord Himself said "SHALL NEVER DIE" (John 11:26[24,25])

--same as what Daniel 12:12 speaks of: "BLESSED is he that WAITETH, and COMETH TO the 1335 days" [i.e. "still-living" saints (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the TRIB yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") the ones of them who will still be existing on the earth at the END of the trib, surrounding the time of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth] (i.e. the Subject in about 8 total "BLESSED" passages that speak of this same time-slot and circumstances: Rev16:14-16, Matt24:44-46 [as mentioned above], Matt25:31-34, Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7], and few other "BLESSED" passages...)




IOW, Ahwatukee (in the portion you quoted of his, in that post) was not speaking of the "RAPTURED" saints, there (who will have already been "raptured" well-prior to the point-in-time he was referencing) ;)
The first resurrection and rapture occur immediately after the tribulation. The only possible remaining people who will be left are unbelievers who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ. This is what happens to unbelievers when Jesus returns:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So you think that unbelievers will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus comes with His angels and then they'll go on to repopulate the earth? o_O
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The first resurrection and rapture occur immediately after the tribulation. The only possible remaining people who will be left are unbelievers who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ. This is what happens to unbelievers when Jesus returns:
First off, the verses you are about to quote are not entirely speaking ONLY of the moment He "RETURNS"... but ALSO include the time-period LEADING UP TO that point (i.e. the Trib yrs, when He along with His powerful angels will be "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who know not God..." [same persons and time-period when "God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" in the TRIB yrs, 2Th2:10-12, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])...

... and Secondly, explain why and how the "2W" are resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time entirely DISTINCT from when all others will be... and...

...explain why 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER / RANK". Why say anything like this if there REMAINS ONLY ONE AT ONE POINT IN TIME (as you suggest)... ['having A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST'='resurrection OF LIFE']... and...

...explain why Paul says, "Behold, I SHOW YOU a MYSTERY" ('mystery' means something NOW being disclosed), and goes on to use the phrases "THIS corruptible" (speaking particularly of "the DEAD IN Christ") and "THIS mortal" (speaking particularly of the "we which are ALIVE and remain" portion [same in 2Cor5:2-4], who is also "IN Christ"--"IN Christ" being a NT designation--aka "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--who BOTH will be "caught up / snatched" at the SAME MOMENT)--where this passage is saying that this is when the saying "Death is swallowed up in victory," when we know that "death" will exist in the MK age for another 1000 yrs before the GWTj happens for "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times, just like Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows there to be A TIME-PERIOD intervening BETWEEN the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that passage (which FIRST of TWO [Isa24:21,22a] is parallel to the Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 point in time i.e. His Second Coming to the earth; and a TIME PERIOD intervening before the SECOND of the TWO [Isa24:22b] takes place at the LATER GWTj in Rev20:11-15); Martha and Job and Daniel ALREADY WELL-KNEW of "resurrection"... it was NO MYSTERY to them!

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
This is saying "who SHALL BE [future tense]" (from the 'time-period' being referenced in these 3 verses)... and "AWAY FROM the presence of the Lord" (whereas "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty/powerful angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON those that..." referring to a SPANS OF TIME [think: 7 angels with 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials... that unfold upon the earth OVER TIME], where there it says (there, in/within that spans of time), 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" (i.e. prior to being sent "AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF" Him)

So you think that unbelievers will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus comes with His angels and then they'll go on to repopulate the earth? o_O
No, I think you are getting both "PERSONS" and "CHRONOLOGY" all blurred together, so that you cannot tell what is what, in the texts of Scripture you've presented.

2Th1:7-9 (your passage) is speaking of both a SPANS OF TIME (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth), and ALSO what will commence at a particular point of time that follows that SPANS OF TIME... this passage is not speaking merely of the point in time of [/commencing at] His "RETURN" to the earth (as you suggest).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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So you think that unbelievers will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus comes with His angels and then they'll go on to repopulate the earth? o_O
To be clear, only "the righteous / the BLESSED" (i.e. saved persons / 'SAINTS') will ENTER the MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [this is not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"] ...(whereas, the children "born to them" [grandchildren, etc] are not "BORN automatically righteous," thus it is these [children, grandchildren, and so forth] who will be the only ones susceptible to "death" in / during the MK age [where in the MK age 'death' will be much more RARE, reserved only for the rebellious])
 

Ahwatukee

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I don't understand it as you explain in this particular way.

What are we reading nonstop from the prophets in the old testament that kept saying wrath, wrath, wrath? All this was ongoing. All the talk about the desolate places. The cities. The high places, all desolate. The doleful creatures dwelling in them. If Daniel, Job and Noah were in them, they would only save their own souls alive. Flee the cities, come to the wilderness. The voice crying in the wilderness. Get out of her. All these warnings. Come to my mountain. Come to the wilderness, water will be abundant there.

And on and on and on. None of that sounds like what you are describing. All of it sounds like the gathering of saints and getting them out of the cities (churches/organized apostate religious centers) that are being prepared for destruction.

I admit I don't understand it, but sometimes things have to strike you as true. And this physical, repopulating scenario doesn't make sense to me. It's not a spiritual existence if we are still in our physical broken bodies. What if I'm 80 years old when this happens? I don't want to live for 1000 years in an 80 year old body. I mean, that's just a typical, earthly human response to the possibility of looking at 1000 years in an old broken down body. What if you're younger, like 15. You will never grow up. What if you're 30 with an infant. It will never grow up. I don't get this physical, human existence. It doesn't sound spiritual or right to me.

But, who knows, maybe it will all be revealed to me.
Hello Orphaned,

The reason why I listed the events in the previous post is so that you could see the chronological order in which they take place.

That said, everyone who is currently in Christ, when the resurrection takes place those living will be changed into their immortal and glorified body and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If you are in Christ, you will not be a part of that group that goes through the tribulation period, but will have already been changed into your immortal and glorified body and taken to heaven with the rest of the church. Therefore, you will not be an 80 year old man living in the millennial kingdom..

Please go back and read the order of events in post #101. As a believer in Christ, you would be a part of the group after the "You are here" where the Lord descends to gather the church.

The more you study, the more you will be able to understand the chronological order of events. Currently, all believers are watching and waiting for the Lord's imminent return to gather His church, of which you would be a part of. After that event God's wrath will take place.

I would be happy to help you with any questions you might have.
 

Ahwatukee

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You've claimed a paradox in your own statements. The first part is true: after the 62 weeks (total of 69 weeks), Messiah was cut off. But the second part is wrong: Messiah wasn't cut off at the end of 62 weeks.

You stated AFTER and AT THE END. You're basically stating Messiah was cut off twice. impossible.
==============================================================================================
Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.f

25Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.k

- Daniel 9:24-27
=================================================================================================


7 seven year period = to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

After (at the end of) sixty-two seven year periods = the Messiah was cut off

The above completes sixty nine of the 7 seven year period or 483 years

In the future, the seventieth seven year period will be fulfilled completing the decree.

Jesus (the Messiah) was cut off (crucified) at the end of the sixty ninth seven. Since the last seven years is still future, Jesus could not have been cut of in the middle of it.
 

Runningman

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First off, the verses you are about to quote are not entirely speaking ONLY of the moment He "RETURNS"... but ALSO include the time-period LEADING UP TO that point (i.e. the Trib yrs, when He along with His powerful angels will be "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who know not God..." [same persons and time-period when "God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" in the TRIB yrs, 2Th2:10-12, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])...

... and Secondly, explain why and how the "2W" are resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time entirely DISTINCT from when all others will be... and...

...explain why 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER / RANK". Why say anything like this if there REMAINS ONLY ONE AT ONE POINT IN TIME (as you suggest)... ['having A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST'='resurrection OF LIFE']... and...

...explain why Paul says, "Behold, I SHOW YOU a MYSTERY" ('mystery' means something NOW being disclosed), and goes on to use the phrases "THIS corruptible" (speaking particularly of "the DEAD IN Christ") and "THIS mortal" (speaking particularly of the "we which are ALIVE and remain" portion [same in 2Cor5:2-4], who is also "IN Christ"--"IN Christ" being a NT designation--aka "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--who BOTH will be "caught up / snatched" at the SAME MOMENT)--where this passage is saying that this is when the saying "Death is swallowed up in victory," when we know that "death" will exist in the MK age for another 1000 yrs before the GWTj happens for "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times, just like Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows there to be A TIME-PERIOD intervening BETWEEN the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that passage (which FIRST of TWO [Isa24:21,22a] is parallel to the Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 point in time i.e. His Second Coming to the earth; and a TIME PERIOD intervening before the SECOND of the TWO [Isa24:22b] takes place at the LATER GWTj in Rev20:11-15); Martha and Job and Daniel ALREADY WELL-KNEW of "resurrection"... it was NO MYSTERY to them!



This is saying "who SHALL BE [future tense]" (from the 'time-period' being referenced in these 3 verses)... and "AWAY FROM the presence of the Lord" (whereas "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty/powerful angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON those that..." referring to a SPANS OF TIME [think: 7 angels with 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials... that unfold upon the earth OVER TIME], where there it says (there, in/within that spans of time), 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" (i.e. prior to being sent "AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF" Him)



No, I think you are getting both "PERSONS" and "CHRONOLOGY" all blurred together, so that you cannot tell what is what, in the texts of Scripture you've presented.

2Th1:7-9 (your passage) is speaking of both a SPANS OF TIME (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth), and ALSO what will commence at a particular point of time that follows that SPANS OF TIME... this passage is not speaking merely of the point in time of [/commencing at] His "RETURN" to the earth (as you suggest).
This 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 is referencing the return of Christ in regards to unbelievers. Verse 10 is referencing the return of Christ in reference to believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Christ will be glorified in His saints when He returns. This is referencing our gathering to Him as evidenced by the text just a few verses later in 2 Thessalonians 2:1:

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Being glorified in His saints is what happens when we are gathered to Him. The gathering to Christ is a reference to the rapture.

If Christ returns pre-tribulation to take vengeance on those who did not obey the gospel there would be no one left to in the great tribulation or even the anti-Christ.

Therefore, your conclusion is severely flawed in placing the return of Christ pre-trib. You need to invent multiple comings of Christ in order to have any semblance of rationale in your position, but I'm pretty sure you agree Christ only returns once so I'm not sure how you intend to prop up what you just said using scripture.
 

Ahwatukee

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@Ahwatukee
The end of 69th was followed by the donkey arrival. Read Dan Ch. 9 carefully. Angel said, "From the issuance (...) to Messiah the prince will be 7 weeks and 62 weeks, (...) and after the 62 weeks will the Messiah be cut off, but not for himself." The crucifixion was 3.5 years after the 69th.

I do not say the 70 weeks were fully completed, however. But the Day of Atonement was at Jubilee (release), so it truly should've been fulfilled with crucifixion. I don't know where the last 3.5 yrs went tho.
Those are weeks are heptads which is a group or set of sevens. In this case it is seventy weeks of years or 490 years

The scripture says no such thing. The Lord was cut off at the end of sixty nine seven year period or at the end of 483 years. The fact that the last seven years of that decree has not yet taken place also supports that fact. For that last seven years hasn't even taken place yet.

That last seven years is the time period in which God will be deal with Israel and will be pouring out His wrath out upon a Christ rejecting world, with the Lord returning to the earth to end the age at then of that seven.
 

Rondonmon

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This 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 is referencing the return of Christ in regards to unbelievers. Verse 10 is referencing the return of Christ in reference to believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Christ will be glorified in His saints when He returns. This is referencing our gathering to Him as evidenced by the text just a few verses later in 2 Thessalonians 2:1:

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Being glorified in His saints is what happens when we are gathered to Him. The gathering to Christ is a reference to the rapture.

If Christ returns pre-tribulation to take vengeance on those who did not obey the gospel there would be no one left to in the great tribulation or even the anti-Christ.

Therefore, your conclusion is severely flawed in placing the return of Christ pre-trib. You need to invent multiple comings of Christ in order to have any semblance of rationale in your position, but I'm pretty sure you agree Christ only returns once so I'm not sure how you intend to prop up what you just said using scripture.
There were Jews who BELIEVED on God (Abraham, Daniel, Ezekiel) and it was counted unto them as Righteousness, they believed in the coming Promise (Jesus/Salvation/Yeshua means Salvation). Daniel was told in Dan. 12:1-2 that he would be raised up at the very end, they are the bride of God. The Church is the bride of Christ, we will be taken to the wedding chambers (in heaven) at the sounding of the Trump (Last Trump as in the Feast of Trumps which ends the Harvest or Church Age).

Jesus came unto the Jews only as per his ministry, so when Jesus tells the Jews they are the Wheat, and they will grow together until the very end with the Wicked Tares, he is speaking about Israel as a Nation, thus all the Messianic Jews are raptured with the Church, because they are a part of the bride of Christ, and will include Paul, Peter, Stephen, etc. all Messianic Jews. But those Jews who repent during the 70th-week tribulation (3-5 million Jews/or 1/3 as Zechariah 13:8-9 says) are the Wheat Jesus spoke of, thus indeed, when Jesus returns, there are 3-5 million Elect Jews waiting on him to save them from their plight in the wilderness of the Bozrah/Petra Mountainous are where they have been residing for 1260 days. Living in those mountains ain't easy !! The Wheat (Israel) and the Wicked Tares (those who took the Mark of the Beast) grow together until the end, then the wicked tares are bundled into the grave to be burned in 1000 years whilst the Jews or Wheat is gathered into God's Barn.
 

Ahwatukee

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I'm not so sure about that either.

1 Corinthians 15:51 says that not everyone will be "sleeping" or, in other words, deceased. That would mean that some people will be alive prior to being "changed."

1 Corinthians 15:51
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
Description of how raptured saints will be changed:
1 Corinthians 15:53-54
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We will be like Christ when He appears:
1 John 3:2
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It sounds like to me that the resurrected church and the living church will both undergo the same kind of change to receive a glorified body.

Question:
Which verse(s) say, or suggest living, raptured, saints will retain a full flesh& blood body capable of marriage and reproduction?[/QUOTE]

Runningman, by asking this question it demonstrates that you have not been paying attention to my posts nor have you understood the order of events.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, is in regards to when the Lord comes to gather His church and has nothing to do with the great tribulations saints. Those who have died in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at that time will be changed and caught up. This event takes place prior to the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath.

After the Lord gathers the church and during the time of His wrath, there will be people who will come to believe in Christ, with many of them being killed. Those who will have been killed during that last seven year period will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Revelation 20:4-6. This resurrection will be the resurrection of those saints who will have died during the tribulation. Out of those saints some will make it alive through the entire tribulation period. It is these who are still in their mortal bodies who will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it.

* The Lord descends from heaven and gathers His church, where the dead are resurrected and the living are changed and caught up, all in their immortal and glorified bodies.

At this point the church is no longer on the earth. After the church has been removed, there will be another group from every nation, people, tribe and language (Gentiles) who will believe in Christ, as described below:

==========================================================================
"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
=========================================================================

Again, for the sake of confusion, the group above is not the church, but is another group of Gentile believers who will believe in the Lord after the church has been removed from the earth and during the time period of God's wrath.

Many in this group will be killed by order of the beast. These are those who John sees resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6

Out of this group of saints, there will be some who will make it alive through the entire tribulation period. Those who do, will be those who will enter into the millennial kingdom, still in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth along with the remnant of Israel who will also still be in their mortal bodies.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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but I'm pretty sure you agree Christ only returns once so I'm not sure how you intend to prop up what you just said using scripture.
Recall, the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) speaks only of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, like in these passages:

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44[45-48] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom)... THEN the meal [G347], as I mentioned in an earlier post (which Lk12 passage is PARALLEL to Matt24:42-51); and

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 CITIES" and "likewise be thou over 5 CITIES" (see also Rev2:26-27 "he that overcometh... to him WILL I GIVE authority over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter they shall be broken to shivers: EVEN AS I RECEIVED of My Father")

Those ^ speak of the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (which is also the point in time that 2Th1:9 speaks of, but not vv.7-8 which is the specific, future LIMITED time-period LEADING UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth;

...so... "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty/powerful angels [i.e. 7 angels 7 Trumpets 7 Vials] in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." is over the course of a SPANS OF TIME (IN / WITHIN the TRIB yrs), whereas this text states of the Church which is His body, "ye who are troubled [now, in this present age] REST / REPOSE with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty/powerful angels, in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." (in / during the TRIB yrs, aka "the DOTL" earthly-located time-period," aka the "IN THAT DAY" v.10 of this chpt...
...IOW, [v.10] referring to the "saints" who will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," not referring to the Thessalonian believers in this present age "having believed" [themselves], but in this verse is Paul presenting the CONTRAST of the TWO DISTINCT "beliefs" ppl WILL be coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [i.e. "IN THAT DAY," not in this one; SAME TIME-FRAME that 2Th2:10-12 "God SHALL SEND TO THEM [the CERTAIN ONES of the unbelievers] great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... that being IN / DURING the TRIB yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])

Paul is showing a CONTRAST in these passages...

so I've pointed out two places already, showing this contrast in this two-chpt context (about "beliefs" ppl will be coming to, in / during the TRIB yrs)... and the following two verses ALSO are distinct points in the chronology:

--[in the same way / similar way] 2Th2:1

is not the same point in time as

--2Th2:8b
 

Runningman

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There were Jews who BELIEVED on God (Abraham, Daniel, Ezekiel) and it was counted unto them as Righteousness, they believed in the coming Promise (Jesus/Salvation/Yeshua means Salvation). Daniel was told in Dan. 12:1-2 that he would be raised up at the very end, they are the bride of God. The Church is the bride of Christ, we will be taken to the wedding chambers (in heaven) at the sounding of the Trump (Last Trump as in the Feast of Trumps which ends the Harvest or Church Age).

Jesus came unto the Jews only as per his ministry, so when Jesus tells the Jews they are the Wheat, and they will grow together until the very end with the Wicked Tares, he is speaking about Israel as a Nation, thus all the Messianic Jews are raptured with the Church, because they are a part of the bride of Christ, and will include Paul, Peter, Stephen, etc. all Messianic Jews. But those Jews who repent during the 70th-week tribulation (3-5 million Jews/or 1/3 as Zechariah 13:8-9 says) are the Wheat Jesus spoke of, thus indeed, when Jesus returns, there are 3-5 million Elect Jews waiting on him to save them from their plight in the wilderness of the Bozrah/Petra Mountainous are where they have been residing for 1260 days. Living in those mountains ain't easy !! The Wheat (Israel) and the Wicked Tares (those who took the Mark of the Beast) grow together until the end, then the wicked tares are bundled into the grave to be burned in 1000 years whilst the Jews or Wheat is gathered into God's Barn.
That's a brilliant summary of it. Thanks for sharing that!

Here's a little excerpt from Matthew 13:

Parable of the weeds:
Matt 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Parable of the weeds explained:
Matt 13:36-43
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ [EDIT to ADD to my post] ...the mistake being, some seeing this context as referring solely to a singular point in time, rather than a SPANS of time wherein MUCH will transpire...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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thus all the Messianic Jews are raptured with the Church, because they are a part of the bride of Christ, and will include Paul, Peter, Stephen, etc. all Messianic Jews. But those Jews who repent during the 70th-week tribulation (3-5 million Jews/or 1/3 as Zechariah 13:8-9 says) are the Wheat Jesus spoke of
(y) I agree with you that the "WHEAT" is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [/US] (which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, but considered NEITHER in our standing before God "IN Christ"); and that once "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" takes place, THEN [after that] is when the "WHEAT" is dealt with (the harvest which is harvested by means of a "tribulum [harvesting implement]"; whereas the EARLIER "harvest" is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR [and BLOWING away the chaff]"--So, WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest, just as you say... I believe Scripture shows us that the "144,000" are the "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, as I've put in past posts... [there's more than ONE "firstfruit" according to Scripture])
 

Ahwatukee

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The first resurrection and rapture occur immediately after the tribulation.
By making this claim, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which is one of the main reasons why the post-tribulation view is in error.

Why is it that you and others make the claim that the Lord is going to gather His church after the tribulation when He returns to the earth to end the age, yet you don't combine it with the scriptures that state that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. You claim one spiritual truth and then trample all over the others.

Your claim infers that you do not truly believe that Christ took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. For since God's wrath has already been satisfied for those who believe, how is it that you still have us on the earth going through God's wrath?

The only possible remaining people who will be left are unbelievers who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ.

So you think that unbelievers will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus comes with His angels and then they'll go on to repopulate the earth? o_O
There will be both the wicked and the righteous who will make it alive until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The wicked will all be killed and the righteous, which will be those saints who make alive through the entire tribulation, will enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.

There will be no unbelievers who will enter into the millennial kingdom. They will all be killed by that double-edged sword of the Lord. And the birds that the angel will have gathered in Rev.19:17-18 will eat their flesh.

Only the survivors of the saints who make it through the entire tribulation period will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel. These are those who will repopulate the earth.
 

oyster67

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I don't know if you're on pre or post side, but basically you're saying that everyone including the ones undergoing tribulation will be considered part of the bigger "church", yes? (If not, please give a reason(s) )

So if someone said "Jesus comes to get the Church" before the beast/antichrist period while he identifies the Church to be all born-again, then he'd be making a statement of a paradox, right?
Nothing paradoxical. Everything is lucid and clear once you see the truth. Those who get onboard before the Rapture will go up in the Rapture.

Many shall miss the Rapture. There are many verses that address those who are left behind also. Not all who miss the Rapture will go to Hell, but Paul wants us to be comforted by the fact that we can be ready for the Rapture and thereby avoid the 7 years of Tribulation. Nothing paradoxical about that.

No matter what we believe about the Rapture, lets all encourage one another to have our lamps trimmed and burning, with plenty of oil on hand as we see that Glorious Day approaching when we shall be caught up together, amen?
 

Ahwatukee

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Nothing paradoxical. Everything is lucid and clear once you see the truth. Those who get onboard before the Rapture will go up in the Rapture.

Many shall miss the Rapture. There are many verses that address those who are left behind also. Not all who miss the Rapture will go to Hell, but Paul wants us to be comforted by the fact that we can be ready for the Rapture and thereby avoid the 7 years of Tribulation. Nothing paradoxical about that.

No matter what we believe about the Rapture, lets all encourage one another to have our lamps trimmed and burning, with plenty of oil on hand as we see that Glorious Day approaching when we shall be caught up together, amen?
Well said!
 

ewq1938

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The bride is the 5 wise virgins. There are also 5 foolish virgins. All 10 virgins are the church. only 5 are the bride.

The other five left the true Church as Apostates.
 
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There you go.
That's a false doctrine. For 3 reasons:

  1. John saw the souls of "those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."
Before their Resurrection, the beast and its mark has to have come. And the verb forms are past tense (aorist), so the 1000yr reign must begin after the time of beast.
2. If you say that the 1000 yr reign is spiritual, the you'd have to say the Resurrection will also be spiritual, and it's already happened. And because the Resurrection is real and about the transformation of old bodies, that is wrong.​

3. the Millennial reign is another way of saying "Day of the Lord" for the simple fact that a day with the Lord is as a thousand yrs (- Peter). If you say the Millennial kingdom has already come, it's the same as saying, "the Day of the Lord has already come," and the same saying is warned of by apostle Paul.​
If the 1000yr kingdom had not come at the time of Paul, then HOW could you say, "it's already come"?

I don't know how people reach this type of conclusions, but it's nothing short of corruption. And it's concerning.
After true gospel is preached all over the world, read everything for list of future events after true gospel.
If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.


1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit if you are one of God's elects. Read James 4:4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually.

Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)

Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.


Back to prophecy, after true gospel is preached every where. Than read Matthew 24, my first post and after posts.

Please what is the 1000 year kingdom to you. The way I see it, its a spiritual kingdom which started when Jesus ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. Why does Jesus need a physical kingdom for 1000 years? I know for sure only God's elects will enter the new heaven and earth. When everyone heard the gospel, so no one is without excuse. 1st coming is when Jesus lived a sinless life and paid the price for all of God's elects. The rapture and 2nd coming is same event.

List of present and future events

-Christ already started his the symbolic 1000 year spiritual kingdom when Christ ascended to Heaven after his resurrection. Also the time where, Satan was thrown down from Heaven to sinful earth to be sealed until true gospel is preached to everyone.

Revelation 20:3 King James Version



3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

-Read Matthew 24 for beginning for the first signs of the great tribulation.

-Matthew 24:12-14


King James Version



12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

-After true gospel is preached to every nation, Satan comes to have all nonelects worship him.

-God's elects get Jailed or killed

-Judgement Day

-Jesus Christ throws all nonelects (all nonelects, Satan and his demons into the lake of fire, which they will stay there forever.

Revelation 21

King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Those are the main events, we will find more truth when the signs come.