Jesus is God

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Mar 4, 2020
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#41
This has been covered already, there is another at least one thread called 'Christ is God', but I think there is too much lowering of Jesus' status in these forums at the moment.

When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus, it was for blasphemy. Jesus was making Himself equal with God. So.. that does not mean that He *wasn't* God. It means He is equal. Jesus is distinct from the Father.. but not inferior. Inferiority.. and you are getting into Polytheism.

Jesus also says to them 'before Abraham was, I AM'... that is a clear reference to God talking to Moses at the burning bush. He is again making Himself equal with God.. and saying those words from God are His words. He is identifying Himself with Yahweh.. the national God of Israel... and beyond that.

Jesus saying 'The Father is greater than I'

With this verse, in the passage He ascends to be one with the Father later, after saying it.

If I say.. the president is greater than I.. is he an ontologically superior being?

No.. he is not. He is a flawed human being like I am, but he is in a greater position.

In Revelation.. this is Jesus' words to the churches.. it also the Holy Spirit's word to the churches.. and then Jesus is referred to with 'Alpha and Omega' terms.. which is used for the Father.

You can't avoid this! Jesus DID claim, indirectly to be God!

Then there is also the Jewish concept of agency.. the messager taking an originators message.. the agent becomes equal to the messenger. So when Jesus says 'by the hand of the Father'.. 'and I and the Father are one'.. things like that... to the Jews... that is saying 'I am God'.. His words are equal to the Fathers.

It goes on and on.. such as 'all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily'

And also that Jesus accepted worship of Himself.

'Son' meaning 'image' 'expression' 'manifestation' of God.. not 'inferior, born out of'

If anyone is going to claim Jesus is not God.. equal to the Father.. that is not christianity. It's something else.
Which verse shows Jesus plainly saying "I am Lord God Almighty?" I am not talking about verses that can be interpreted based on opinion. Where does Jesus plainly, undeniably, unequivocally say "I am Yahweh."

Like all things in the Bible, clear and direct answers are very important.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#42
Which verse shows Jesus plainly saying "I am Lord God Almighty?" I am not talking about verses that can
be interpreted based on opinion. Where does Jesus plainly, undeniably, unequivocally say "I am Yahweh."

Like all things in the Bible, clear and direct answers are very important.
Do you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ?


John 1:1
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. :)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#43
Do you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ?


John 1:1
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. :)
Thank you. I didn't think there was a plain verse of Jesus claiming to be God.

Any other takers?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#45
Which verse shows Jesus plainly saying "I am Lord God Almighty?" I am not talking about verses that can be interpreted based on opinion. Where does Jesus plainly, undeniably, unequivocally say "I am Yahweh."

Like all things in the Bible, clear and direct answers are very important.
Plaine speaking is easy on the earthly level but even plain statements become complex when speaking 'into/out of' the spiritual realm. When Moses asked God, "Who should I say sent me?" God answered, "Tell them, 'I am that I am,' which also means 'I was what I was,' and 'I'll be what I'll be,' and in this sense is how Jesus answered the question, "Are you..." in Mark 14:62, "I am... sitting at the right hand of power...and coming with the clouds of heaven." That is, He wasn't speaking solely of the puffy while accumulations of water vapor.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#46
Plaine speaking is easy on the earthly level but even plain statements become complex when speaking 'into/out of' the spiritual realm. When Moses asked God, "Who should I say sent me?" God answered, "Tell them, 'I am that I am,' which also means 'I was what I was,' and 'I'll be what I'll be,' and in this sense is how Jesus answered the question, "Are you..." in Mark 14:62, "I am... sitting at the right hand of power...and coming with the clouds of heaven." That is, He wasn't speaking solely of the puffy while accumulations of water vapor.
The Old Testament is packed with unambiguous and direct quotes attributed to God where He said He is God. No interpretation required. Jesus never said any such things like "I am God." That's the only point I'm making.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#48
The Old Testament is packed with unambiguous and direct quotes attributed to God where He said He is God. No interpretation required. Jesus never said any such things like "I am God." That's the only point I'm making.
I understand that but, what I'm saying is the audience He was speaking to understood what He was saying, evidenced by them picking up stones. It was clear to them what He was saying, though we have to go to HELPS Word-studies 1510, eimi, for Mark 16:20.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#49
John 8:58...Before Abraham was, I am...
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Verse 58 is in reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the Son of God.
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#50
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Verse 58 is in reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the Son of God.
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Yes. It's the same name God told Moses...tell them I am sent me
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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#51
Yes. It's the same name God told Moses...tell them I am sent me
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Verse 58 is in reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the Son of God.
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
To the eternal preexistence of Jesus, as discussed at length in our other engagements (see post #34): https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/one-god-worship.208537/page-2

In John 8:58, Jesus expresses an existence of a different order than that of Abraham by contrasting between Abraham, who “came into being” (genesthai), and He, who simply is (ego eimi). As I have expressed elsewhere on various forums,

By itself, ego eimi does not imply eternal pre-existence; however, when placed alongside genesthai and referring to a time anterior to that indicated by genesthai (“came into being”), ego eimi or its related forms (because it denotes simple existence and is a durative form of the verb “to be”) stands in sharp contrast to the aorist genesthai which speaks of “coming into being.” It is this sharp contrast between being and becoming which makes it clear that in a text like John 8:58 that ego eimi implies eternality, not merely temporal priority. Jesus’ words closely echoes Psalm 90:2, which speaks of the eternal being of God in contrast to those things that “came into being” — “Before the mountains came into being (genethenai) and the earth and world were formed, even from age to age, You are (su ei, second-person equivalent of ego eimi),” Psalm 90:2 (see LXX).
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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#52
Yes. It's the same name God told Moses...tell them I am sent me
Do you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ?
We can deduce several things about Runningman's theology. He believes in the preexistence of Jesus (as indicated by Post #49), but he also cited a litany of passages in Post #31 of this thread (click me!) to argue that Jesus is not God. Though, by the use of "God" he was conflating it with "the Father."

Putting two-and-two together seems to suggest one of two things. Either Runningman holds to an Arian type Christology, similar to that of the JW's. Or he believes in the eternal preexistence of the Son of God, so you have two eternal divine figures.

Runningman hasn't come out officially and said it; and some of his interpretations don't follow standard Watchtower interpretations. So it may be that he was influenced in his thought by reading JW material. Though this is speculation. It could be that Runningman hears the word "God" and automatically thinks "the Father."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#53
We can deduce several things about Runningman's theology. He believes in the preexistence of Jesus (as indicated by Post #49), but he also cited a litany of passages in Post #31 of this thread (click me!) to argue that Jesus is not God. Though, by the use of "God" he was conflating it with "the Father."

Putting two-and-two together seems to suggest one of two things. Either Runningman holds to an Arian type Christology, similar to that of the JW's. Or he believes in the eternal preexistence of the Son of God, so you have two eternal divine figures.

Runningman hasn't come out officially and said it; and some of his interpretations don't follow standard Watchtower interpretations. So it may be that he was influenced in his thought by reading JW material. Though this is speculation. It could be that Runningman hears the word "God" and automatically thinks "the Father."
True... this is not the first thread of late where this theme of his has become evident...
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#56
We can deduce several things about Runningman's theology. He believes in the preexistence of Jesus (as indicated by Post #49), but he also cited a litany of passages in Post #31 of this thread (click me!) to argue that Jesus is not God. Though, by the use of "God" he was conflating it with "the Father."

Putting two-and-two together seems to suggest one of two things. Either Runningman holds to an Arian type Christology, similar to that of the JW's. Or he believes in the eternal preexistence of the Son of God, so you have two eternal divine figures.

Runningman hasn't come out officially and said it; and some of his interpretations don't follow standard Watchtower interpretations. So it may be that he was influenced in his thought by reading JW material. Though this is speculation. It could be that Runningman hears the word "God" and automatically thinks "the Father."
Read my responses in that thread again. My entire thesis in that thread is about what the Pharisees believed about Jesus and how their claims that Jesus claimed he is God is false because Jesus never said that. I am not even talking about what I believe there.

I think you’ve added a lot of your commentary and you’re free to make deductions, but you’re misrepresenting me. I have never even read the Watchtower magazine, fellowshipped with any JWs, or been to a Kingdom Hall. So you got me all wrong, as most people seem to do on this forum.

I’ve said this at least a half dozen times now, but Bible discussions are scholarly to me and I’m staunchly Biblical and a lot of people will find it impossible to pry me away from what the Bible doesn’t plainly say.

That’s why I prefer to keep it more scholarly and academic and less personal.

As far as the Trinity Goes, I am a Trinitsrian since I believe in the Trinity, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t the same Person; that’s very clear. The Father is God who delegated power and authority to Jesus for the time being. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.

Please refer to Paul’s theology about the Father and Son, below: this is how I view it too.

1 Corinthians 15
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
 

ThewindBlows

Active member
Sep 30, 2019
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#57
Thank you. I didn't think there was a plain verse of Jesus claiming to be God.

Any other takers?
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

From the beginning it shows that the word is God, when Thomas Called Jesus God Jesus told him he has believed
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#58
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Alpha and Omega are Greek letters. Remember, Jesus is often referred to as the Word. Right? This is a reference to power and authority of Jesus’ words, but he isn’t coming out and saying “I am God” there.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#59
Alpha and Omega are Greek letters. Remember, Jesus is often referred to as the Word. Right? This is a reference to power and authority of Jesus’ words, but he isn’t coming out and saying “I am God” there.
Did the Father ever simply say, "I am God"? He said, "I am the LORD thy God," didn't He? What scripture is there that He would've excluded the Son, or the Spirit from His identity?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#60
Did the Father ever simply say, "I am God"? He said, "I am the LORD thy God," didn't He? What scripture is there that He would've excluded the Son, or the Spirit from His identity?
The Spirit of God, Jesus' Father, didn't rest on Jesus until after his water baptism. This voice from heaven speaking is Jesus' Father, aka God, who referred to Jesus as His Son.

Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”