Jesus Never Taught About His Crucifixion, Resurrection......

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#1
........well, I have read that assertion right here on CC.........So it MUST BE true right?

Well, let's see...........

John 2:18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 .) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 .) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 .) But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 .) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Luke 9:20) He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. 21 .) And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; 22 .) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. 23 .) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 .) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 .) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 .) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 .) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 .) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 .) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 .) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 .) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 .) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 .) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 .) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 .) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 .) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do…………………9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine…………18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 .) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 .) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 .) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 .) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Matthew 26:38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 .) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

(uh, hmmm, well, maybe He did?)

 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#2
Suppose I should include this just for reference............

Comment #59 on thread........found here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83286-why-nt-only-grace-only-theology-off-mark.html

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!
 
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#3
If he did he would not have been Jesus
He was not here to glorify self.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#5
Suppose I should include this just for reference............

Comment #59 on thread........found here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/83286-why-nt-only-grace-only-theology-off-mark.html

Mainstream Christian believers insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!
You are exactly coorect here. The good news (gospel) was teh good news that Christ would return and establish His Kingdom on earth. Kinda knocks the great Controversy doctrine into a cocked hat.
 
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#6
Christ did not come to glorify Himself and the Trinity alone, but instead to bestow and allow us to share in the glory and all that is our God. However, it is by the grace of God alone that we are saved, for Jesus said that any who come to Him are sent by the Father. So to deny grace or that Christ preached the way in which God would glorify Himself and share that glory with His beloved Bride, borders on hiding that Light of the World under a bushel.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#7
Jesus did teach the disciples of His ascending into heaven in John 6:62-69. It's there if you look for it and the Holy Spirit reveals it to you. The unsaved will not see it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#8
........well, I have read that assertion right here on CC.........So it MUST BE true right?

Well, let's see...........

John 2:18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 .) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 .) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 .) But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 .) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Luke 9:20) He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. 21 .) And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; 22 .) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. 23 .) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 .) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 .) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 .) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 .) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 .) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 .) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 .) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 .) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 .) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 .) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 .) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 .) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 .) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do…………………9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine…………18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 .) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 .) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 .) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 .) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Matthew 26:38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 .) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

(uh, hmmm, well, maybe He did?)
I don't think they fully understood at the time what he was saying but later when he was risen from the dead they remembered and understood. (John 2:18-22)

Lord, we know not whither thou goest and how can we know the way? (John 14:1)

In John 17:1 - Did they hear Jesus pray that prayer to his Father? I believe that Jesus prayed alone to the Father and not in any one's presence . . . .


also the prayer in Matt. 26:38 - I don't believe they heard that prayer either . . . .

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Why were they so surprised when they realized his body was not in the tomb?

Mark 16:7,8 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any; for they were afraid. . . .11) And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it to the residue: neither believed they them.

Luke 24:10,11 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

John 20:2b . . .They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. - 7) and the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

I believe that Jesus taught them but I believe also that they did not fully understand what he was teaching them and that is what I tend to see. :)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,193
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#9
QUOTE:

I believe that Jesus taught them but I believe also that they did not fully understand what he was teaching them and that is what I tend to see. :)

ENDQUOTE:

True, but the point is.............He SURELY DID preach/teach on these things.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#10
They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him.
“We are going up to Jerusalem,”
he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

(Matthew 10:33-34)


i don't see why there is controversy. do people not read the book?

 
Aug 5, 2013
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#11
They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him.
“We are going up to Jerusalem,”
he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles,who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

(Matthew 10:33-34)


i don't see why there is controversy. do people not read the book?

That's Matthew 20:18-19, not Matthew 10:33-34. Perhaps you ought to cite your scripture with links for reasons like this.

The reasons for controversy often come from contradictions within the bible. The phrase "son of man" can be interpreted in more than one way, and bible scholar Bart Ehrman believes that Jesus was talking about someone after him that would come and rule the Earth. You may think "why not Jesus himself? He was the son of God, after all" but that's because you think that all of the gospels are the same and carry the same message. Only in the gospel of John is Jesus clear about who he is... the gospel starts off by saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and was God. Every single one of the "I am" declarations (such as "I am the truth, the life, and the way") are found in John and only in John. But in the other gospels Jesus tells his disciples to keep his identity a secret.

So did Jesus teach about *his* crucifixion and resurrection? Only in John, the most doubtful and different of the gospels.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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#12
I don't think they fully understood at the time what he was saying but later when he was risen from the dead they remembered and understood. (John 2:18-22)
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
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#13
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
I was about to post a similar but let's give it a fuller weight and notice it takes ones eyes being opened to 'see' Jesus for who He is even after the Scriptures have been applied.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
(Luk 24:24-32)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
That's Matthew 20:18-19, not Matthew 10:33-34. Perhaps you ought to cite your scripture with links for reasons like this.
whoops! thanks for the correction. i probably had 8 or 10 tabs of scripture opened up and read from the wrong one. =p

also we're both wrong, it's Mark 10:32-34 (so i read the right tab but put Matthew instead of Mark)

i don't like to put links into the post - i want the scripture to be posted clearly and right here for all to see, so no extra clicking or searching needs to be done to find it. not everyone can open new windows or tabs easily, depending on what sort of device they navigate to this site with.
 
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#15
Threads like this wouldn't be necessary if most of you were in churches that opened the Gospels occasionally. But all I hear about is being directed to the other books at the end of the New Testament.

Knowing exactly what Jesus taught whilst on earth (aka the Gospels) should be the foundation of all Christian teachings.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#16
HAH! Whoever taught that needs to wake up from their stupor! WOW, 1st thought was John Chapter 3 and Jesus being lifted up even as the brazen serpent was lifted up by Moses.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#17
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
I am not saying that Jesus did not teach them - I am saying that at the time they did not fully understand the things he told them and there is scripture to support that.

Yep . . . all that prior teaching and they did not fully understand until he expounded unto them all the scriptures the things concerning himself - and they had all those OT teachings plus what he told them in person but not until he expounded further . . .sat at meat with them, took the bread, and blessed it and brake and gave to them . . . . only then were their eyes opened. I wonder if the breaking and blessing of bread reminded them of this:

Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body . . . . .

And that previous experience together with the scripture is what opened their eyes? - Pretty neat!

 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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#18
That's Matthew 20:18-19, not Matthew 10:33-34. Perhaps you ought to cite your scripture with links for reasons like this.

The reasons for controversy often come from contradictions within the bible. The phrase "son of man" can be interpreted in more than one way, and bible scholar Bart Ehrman believes that Jesus was talking about someone after him that would come and rule the Earth. You may think "why not Jesus himself? He was the son of God, after all" but that's because you think that all of the gospels are the same and carry the same message. Only in the gospel of John is Jesus clear about who he is... the gospel starts off by saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and was God. Every single one of the "I am" declarations (such as "I am the truth, the life, and the way") are found in John and only in John. But in the other gospels Jesus tells his disciples to keep his identity a secret.

So did Jesus teach about *his* crucifixion and resurrection? Only in John, the most doubtful and different of the gospels.
Did I miss something? What's your reasoning (or for that matter, Ehrman's reasoning) about why son of man must be a separate person? If that is the case, we have to conclude that the error was made by followers of Jesus very early on, as Matthew (ch 10) identifies Jesus as the subject of words spoken by Jesus in Mark (ch 8), not to mention the clear parallels between what is described of Jesus life, what statements Jesus makes about himself, and those statements he makes about the son of man
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#19
The reasons for controversy often come from contradictions within the bible.

this link takes you to a page where some nutjob says the fact that at the empty tomb the disciples still didn't understand that Jesus would be raised up is a contradiction.
that's patently false. read:

He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
(Mark 9:31-32)

the disciples lack of understanding isn't a contradiction, it's human nature. you don't have to look far to find a human not understanding God's word... (ahem)


The phrase "son of man" can be interpreted in more than one way, and bible scholar Bart Ehrman believes that Jesus was talking about someone after him that would come and rule the Earth. You may think "why not Jesus himself? He was the son of God, after all" but that's because you think that all of the gospels are the same and carry the same message.

yes, we might think that, because it's true. to be honest i don't care what mr. Ehrman thinks, or who he is, but thanks for pointing out that he's someone i shouldn't listen to.


Only in the gospel of John is Jesus clear about who he is... the gospel starts off by saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and was God. Every single one of the "I am" declarations (such as "I am the truth, the life, and the way") are found in John and only in John. But in the other gospels Jesus tells his disciples to keep his identity a secret.
there's a glaring logical fallacy here. how could He warn His disciples not to reveal that He was the son of God if He hadn't intimated this very fact to them?
John's gospel was written much later than the other 3, and wasn't meant to repeat the same already circulated information, but to expound on it.


So did Jesus teach about *his* crucifixion and resurrection? Only in John, the most doubtful and different of the gospels.
i'm starting to think you have never read the gospels. . .

even the dubious "contradiction" link gives six specific verses in Matthew, Mark and Luke where Jesus told the disciples that He would be crucified and resurrected. do you even read the links you post?

what's missing is the verses immediately following all these references, like the one i posted above ^^
where it is written that they did not understand what He said, until after it had taken place. now if i teach you some things about measure theory and the calculus of variations, but you don't understand it, does that mean i never taught math? of course not. it means you didn't pay attention in class.


 
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#20


the disciples lack of understanding isn't a contradiction, it's human nature. you don't have to look far to find a human not understanding God's word... (ahem)




yes, we might think that, because it's true. to be honest i don't care what mr. Ehrman thinks, or who he is, but thanks for pointing out that he's someone i shouldn't listen to.




there's a glaring logical fallacy here. how could He warn His disciples not to reveal that He was the son of God if He hadn't intimated this very fact to them?
John's gospel was written much later than the other 3, and wasn't meant to repeat the same already circulated information, but to expound on it.




i'm starting to think you have never read the gospels. . .

even the dubious "contradiction" link gives six specific verses in Matthew, Mark and Luke where Jesus told the disciples that He would be crucified and resurrected. do you even read the links you post?

what's missing is the verses immediately following all these references, like the one i posted above ^^
where it is written that they did not understand what He said, until after it had taken place. now if i teach you some things about measure theory and the calculus of variations, but you don't understand it, does that mean i never taught math? of course not. it means you didn't pay attention in class.


You're starting to think that " have never read the gospels"? I cited them. I'm an atheist, so obviously I may not have read them with the same assumptions that you have, but it's absurd to think that I haven't read them.

Yes, John was written much later than the other gospels. It didn't "expound" on the other gospels as much as blatantly change them. Jesus' attack on the moneychangers happens between Jesus' first and second miracles in John, rather than in the last week of his life. Jesus died on the day before passover rather than the day after in John. Mary is not accompanied by women to the tomb but rather by two disciples and sees Jesus face-to-face right there inside the tomb. The reason that John doesn't repeat the same stories found in the first 3 gospels is because it didn't use them as a source. I could go on and on, but it's clear that this gospel is very different from the others. Whatever reasoning might be used to explain why the other 3 gospels needed to repeat the same stories is logically contradictory to whatever reasoning you might use to explain why John didn't repeat them.

Speaking of logical fallacies, you didn't name one when discussing my alleged error in reason. Because I see the bible as containing contradictions, there's no reason why I should see a problem with the disciples both recognizing and not recognizing Jesus as God, any more than I have a problem with John the Baptist announcing that Jesus is the Messiah and then later having his disciples ask if Jesus was the Messiah. I just see this as another bible error.

Don't blame my "lack of understanding" on bad interpretation, especially if it comes from a supposedly inspired book from a perfect author that is supposedly written in such a way that no one can be blamed for not following its commandments. I come from a different viewpoint because I don't automatically rationalize everything that opposes the alleged perfection of the bible. Your math teacher could have very easily taught you that 2 + 2 = 5, and you'd defend it until the end because you can't accept that your source could have been fallible... it's not about how well you paid attention in class, but about how much credulity you approached your course with.