Jesus say: to be save you have to do good

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#1
Matthew 19:16-26 King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Why Paul say salvation by faith not by work

And the same Paul say

1 Corinthians 6:9

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

Is salvation nothing to do with work or doing good
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,022
5,037
113
#2
Again, many teach we do nothing once we are saved, like obeying God is a work and not our due to Him. They are like the pharisees of old, blinded by the veil of Moses.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#3
Again, many teach we do nothing once we are saved, like obeying God is a work and not our due to Him. They are like the pharisees of old, blinded by the veil of Moses.
Thanks for your warning brother.

In my discussion with some friend, I heard again and do with work, good work produce reward but nothing to do with salvation.

My Christian friend steal money from credit card, because he believe good work nothing to do with salvation.

I think we need study deeper about correlation between faith and work.

Why Jesus say if you want save, keep the commandment

Why not say, keep commandment is only for reward, but for salvation you only need faith,
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#4
Matthew 19:16-26 King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Why Paul say salvation by faith not by work

And the same Paul say

1 Corinthians 6:9

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

Is salvation nothing to do with work or doing good
The last time I discussed this with you, I concluded you have the Methodist view regarding the link between works and salvation.

Have you changed your mind, or do you still have the same view?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
10,549
113
#5
Matthew 19:16-26 King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
this man did not believe Christ is the Son of God -
he called Him '
good teacher' / rabbi
he asked what he can '
do' to earn eternal life


so he did not have faith, and did not believe. since all his thoughts were about the law, Jesus responded to him, you know what the law says.
Jesus is challenging his thinking:

  • why do you call Me good?
  • you know what the law says ((so what are you asking??))

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
(Galatians 3:11-12)

His questions are leading him to two conclusions:
  • the divinity of Christ
  • the incapability of the law to lead to life
Jesus is teaching him. what He tells him to do - sell everything and give to the poor - isn't something from the law at all. the law says to do good to the poor, but it doesn't say sell everything and give all to the poor - so what is Jesus teaching him about 'goodness' ? it is giving everything - and Christ, God, is there, giving everything.
man can't truly give anything - all we have, was given to us. when we give, we only are letting go of the things we first received. God truly gives, because He is the Origin and Creator.


this man was trusting in doing something to earn life.
that's what he asks about.
he finds out the thing to '
do' is a price he can hardly pay: everything.


Jesus did not go around preaching 'whoever keeps the law will have eternal life'
He went around preaching, '
whoever believes in Me will have eternal life'
this is not different; it is a complex conversation with a very smart man who did not understand who Jesus is, but who understands that even though he is keeping the law, it is not leading him to eternal life -- if it did, he would not have any reason to ask Jesus how to receive it.


the disciples after this are amazed and think no one can reach eternal life. 'who then can be saved??' they ask.
but they do not understand what they have just seen and heard. Jesus explains to them: '
with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible'


'with man' is the idea the young man had. that he could earn salvation by doing something. impossible. that's the law.
'
with God' is what Jesus is pushing this man's thoughts towards. possible. that is faith - faith in God, not ourselves.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#6
this man did not believe Christ is the Son of God -
he called Him '
good teacher' / rabbi
he asked what he can '
do' to earn eternal life


so he did not have faith, and did not believe. since all his thoughts were about the law, Jesus responded to him, you know what the law says.
Jesus is challenging his thinking:

  • why do you call Me good?
  • you know what the law says ((so what are you asking??))

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
(Galatians 3:11-12)

His questions are leading him to two conclusions:
  • the divinity of Christ
  • the incapability of the law to lead to life
Jesus is teaching him. what He tells him to do - sell everything and give to the poor - isn't something from the law at all. the law says to do good to the poor, but it doesn't say sell everything and give all to the poor - so what is Jesus teaching him about 'goodness' ? it is giving everything - and Christ, God, is there, giving everything.
man can't truly give anything - all we have, was given to us. when we give, we only are letting go of the things we first received. God truly gives, because He is the Origin and Creator.


this man was trusting in doing something to earn life.
that's what he asks about.
he finds out the thing to '
do' is a price he can hardly pay: everything.


Jesus did not go around preaching 'whoever keeps the law will have eternal life'
He went around preaching, '
whoever believes in Me will have eternal life'
this is not different; it is a complex conversation with a very smart man who did not understand who Jesus is, but who understands that even though he is keeping the law, it is not leading him to eternal life -- if it did, he would not have any reason to ask Jesus how to receive it.


the disciples after this are amazed and think no one can reach eternal life. 'who then can be saved??' they ask.
but they do not understand what they have just seen and heard. Jesus explains to them: '
with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible'


'with man' is the idea the young man had. that he could earn salvation by doing something. impossible. that's the law.
'
with God' is what Jesus is pushing this man's thoughts towards. possible. that is faith - faith in God, not ourselves.
So you believe this man not believe that Jesus is God.

But this man ask how to be save isn't it?

Than why Jesus not say, believe that I am God than you save and if you keep the commandment you get reward.
Keep commandment nothing to do with salvation. Murder only decrease your reward.

Why Jesus say (to be save) keep the commandment?
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,405
2,645
113
65
#7
Why Paul say salvation by faith not by work?
Hi Jackson, there are a few things that I'd like to talk about from your couple of posts in this thread, but I'll start here with two quotes concerning salvation, one by Jesus, and the other one by Paul.

They sound pretty similar to me. What do you think :unsure:

John 5 (Jesus)
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Romans 10 (Paul)
9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's a thought that might interest you, a quote actually, from the Protestant Reformation by Calvin (I believe Luther said the exact same thing, nearly word for word :)):

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith the justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin
.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#8
1 Corinthians 6:9

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

Paul say unrighteousness shall not inherit the kingdom/not save

Paul not say unrighteousness not get reward but go to heaven.

Than Paul continue

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Why don't he say as long as you believe that Jesus God, stealing is only decrease your reward but nothing to do with your salvation?

Nor thieves...........inherits the kingdom/save

Is that mean work nothing to do with salvation only reward?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#9
The last time I discussed this with you, I concluded you have the Methodist view regarding the link between works and salvation.

Have you changed your mind, or do you still have the same view?
I never study about Methodist view, brother, so I afraid to say if my view is exactly like Methodist Verwoerd.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#10
I never study about Methodist view, brother, so I afraid to say if my view is exactly like Methodist Verwoerd.
Basically, if you don't have the time to do works, then faith alone can save. This applies to the thief on the cross and potential bedside conversions.

But once you have the time, works become necessary for salvation, on top of having faith.

Is that still your view now?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#11
Hi Jackson, there are a few things that I'd like to talk about from your couple of posts in this thread, but I'll start here with two quotes concerning salvation, one by Jesus, and the other one by Paul.

They sound pretty similar to me. What do you think :unsure:

John 5 (Jesus)
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Romans 10 (Paul)
9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's a thought that might interest you, a quote actually, from the Protestant Reformation by Calvin (I believe Luther said the exact same thing, nearly word for word :)):

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith the justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin
.
So why Jesus answer to young men in mat 19

If you want to save you have to keep the commandment,

Why don't Jesus answer this young men, if you want to save, just believe Me than if you murder you will not face judgments
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#12
Basically, if you don't have the time to do works, then faith alone can save. This applies to the thief on the cross and potential bedside conversions.

But once you have the time, works become necessary for salvation, on top of having faith.

Is that still your view now?
Not exactly that,
My view is there is correlation between faith and work.

I do not believe that a man of faith murder every day. A man of faith will naturally produce love because Jesus say if a branch abide in the vine he will bear fruit, and the fruit of Holy Spirit is love, not murder.

So I am not agree, as Son as you believe that Jesus God, you can murder and not face judgment
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#13
Not exactly that,
My view is there is correlation between faith and work.

I do not believe that a man of faith murder every day. A man of faith will naturally produce love because Jesus say if a branch abide in the vine he will bear fruit, and the fruit of Holy Spirit is love, not murder.

So I am not agree, as Son as you believe that Jesus God, you can murder and not face judgment
Do you know of any Christian who ever told you, "Yipee, now that I am a Christian, I can murder anyone I want?"

Almost always no one correct? There are natural consequences to murder for one thing. In many countries with the death penalty, you will see God much earlier in heaven if you do murder someone :)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,022
5,037
113
#14
I have consistently followed what I believe to be from God that our work (works) can only be works given us by God. When I refer t our obedience to God, I only refer to what is our due……….we can do nothing for God unless He gives it to us to do. All the glory, no mater how people may try to twist hti understanding it to God...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#15
Do you know of any Christian who ever told you, "Yipee, now that I am a Christian, I can murder anyone I want?"

Almost always no one correct? There are natural consequences to murder for one thing. In many countries with the death penalty, you will see God much earlier in heaven if you do murder someone :)
Some Christian believe stealing money from credit card nothing to do with salvation but why Paul say

1 cor 6
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


No thieves .......inherit the kingdom..

No thieves go to heaven but if that thieves believevthat Jesus is God go to heaven! Only reduce his reward?

Seem to me some Christian not agree with Paul.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#16
I have consistently followed what I believe to be from God that our work (works) can only be works given us by God. When I refer t our obedience to God, I only refer to what is our due……….we can do nothing for God unless He gives it to us to do. All the glory, no mater how people may try to twist hti understanding it to God...
Yep if a branch abide in the vine, it will bear fruit, not that a branch have ability to produce the fruit, but the vine produce for the branch.

In contrast, if a branch claim to abide in the vine but not bear the fruit, he is lie,
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,160
6,571
113
#17
So why Jesus answer to young men in mat 19

If you want to save you have to keep the commandment,

Why don't Jesus answer this young men, if you want to save, just believe Me than if you murder you will not face judgments

Jesus was getting him, and by extension us, to see the IMPOSSIBILITY of keeping the commandments. He lays this out more clearly in Matthew chapter 5, where even illicit THOUGHTS are sins that break the commandments. Also sins of OMISSION.

Here was a RICH man, with poverty and need all about. How could he have ALWAYS loved his neighbors seeing them in need and do nothing with his wealth?

This much is CERTAIN. If you mix YOUR works with God's GRACE, you have nullified God's GRACE, and it will not save you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
10,549
113
#18
So you believe this man not believe that Jesus is God.

But this man ask how to be save isn't it?

Than why Jesus not say, believe that I am God than you save and if you keep the commandment you get reward.
Keep commandment nothing to do with salvation. Murder only decrease your reward.

Why Jesus say (to be save) keep the commandment?
This man isn't asking how he can 'be saved' - - he's asking how he can save himself.
he thinks he's just talking to a famous rabbi, and he thinks eternal life is something he can earn or buy somehow. It's like he is asking, where is the eternal life store, and how much does it cost?

Jesus describes the whole conversation, it is very hard for a rich man to be saved. How would that make sense if it is about works? A rich man has all kinds of time and few worries. Why couldn't a rich man have even more opportunities to do good works and keep laws? He's not tempted to steal, and he has lots of possessions so he isn't tempted by covetousness as much, because what he wants, he buys.

But this is the danger to the rich:

Proverbs 30:8-9
Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, "Who is the LORD?" or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.

Maybe with all their possessions and power and easy life, they forget God.

That is exactly what Christ immediately reminds the young man about:
No one is good, but God alone.

This means the man is not good either. How can you earn life, if you are not good? To be given it by God, without deserving it, is the only way.

I believe this man went away sad because he was starting to understand. I have hope for him that he went and thought more about it and that he turned to God for life instead of his own works. As Jesus said about it all, with God all things are possible. He didn't tell us the rest, but this isn't the end of that man's story.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
#19
Jesus was getting him, and by extension us, to see the IMPOSSIBILITY of keeping the commandments. He lays this out more clearly in Matthew chapter 5, where even illicit THOUGHTS are sins that break the commandments. Also sins of OMISSION.

Here was a RICH man, with poverty and need all about. How could he have ALWAYS loved his neighbors seeing them in need and do nothing with his wealth?

This much is CERTAIN. If you mix YOUR works with God's GRACE, you have nullified God's GRACE, and it will not save you.
Thanks for your respon brother,

What do you mean by mixing work and grace?
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,135
17,523
113
#20
Again, many teach we do nothing once we are saved, like obeying God is a work and not our due to Him. They are like the pharisees of old, blinded by the veil of Moses.
Do not listen to this person. He does not understand what a pharisee is, and he does not understand the gospel.

A pharisee teaches we earn salvation by works, they claim God demands works.

He is blinded himself by the veil of moses,