Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

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Jul 22, 2014
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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]In John chapter 2: Jesus created unfermented wine. Jesus could not have made the water into alcoholic wine or fermented wine for several reasons:

#1. Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advise or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#2. Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not?

#3. The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

For example:

Lets say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

Also, lets say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

For drinking soberly and in the privacy of your own home is not the same thing as drinking openly where others could see you and potentially stumble.

So while it is lawful to drink soberly and in private, Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine as if he placed his seal of approval upon it for you to do the same in public. Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life. For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness. We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you all.

Source:
Bible & Alcohol


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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
This has been covered numerous times and context dictates what the bible teaches about wine.....

Question.....

Were the Pharisees stupid and or the bible not inspired when they raked Jesus over the coals for eating and drinking with the people when they called him a

1. Wine bibber

or

2.Grape juice drinker

Can straight grape juice expand old wineskins to bursting point without having help?

Was God stupid and or misinformed when Jesus said...

I sent John unto u (strait laced and walking the line and your refused to dance)...

I came eating and drinking and was accused of being a WINEBIBBER and friends of sinners.....

And they would not (dance).....obviously paraphrasing

Jesus was not called a winebibber because he drank unfermented grape juice.....

It is not those things that enter into a man that defiles a man.......

I agree with some things you say....
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#3
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Self explanatory.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#4
This is not correct to say the wine could not have been alcoholic.

That is a false assumption for those who want to look at all alcoholic drinks as being wrong.
Many of renowned people of the bible had vineyards, and drank the wine that came from that vineyard. It was not wrong to drink it until they used it for the purpose that they got drunk off it. Then it became wrong.

A glass of wine a day is proved to have health benefits.

Plus, remember what the man said in this passage about the wine that Jesus turned from the water.

He said what is this, why have you saved the best for last.

It was custom back then at celebrations to serve the good well fermented wine tell the people got drunk, then to bring out the cheep diluted wine so that they did not waste the good wine.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#5
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Self explanatory.
I know it is crazy....I don't understand how some can read into the scriptures things that are not there and or just simply reject the obvious context of what is said...LOGICALLY deduced conclusions of the obvious seem to be missing from many a theologian HAHAH
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
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#6
Lol its hilarious how much some people will expand on one story just to fit their viewpoint of alcohol being bad. Seriously if you dont like it, dont drink it. The world will keep spinning and you can quit wasting your time with trying to convince others, who honestly don't care.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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This has been covered numerous times and context dictates what the bible teaches about wine.....

Question.....

Were the Pharisees stupid and or the bible not inspired when they raked Jesus over the coals for eating and drinking with the people when they called him a

1. Wine bibber

or

2.Grape juice drinker

Can straight grape juice expand old wineskins to bursting point without having help?

Was God stupid and or misinformed when Jesus said...

I sent John unto u (strait laced and walking the line and your refused to dance)...

I came eating and drinking and was accused of being a WINEBIBBER and friends of sinners.....

And they would not (dance).....obviously paraphrasing

Jesus was not called a winebibber because he drank unfermented grape juice.....

It is not those things that enter into a man that defiles a man.......

I agree with some things you say....
I am an Abstentionist. That means I believe while it is not a sin to drink soberly and moderately in private, I do believe it is important to warn the brethren about the dangers of alcohol and the realities of it as described in the Scriptures. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink but it is joy in the Holy Ghost.

Anyways, as you might know, the Bible mentions both unfermented wine and fermented wine.

Here is unfermented wine.

Joel 1:10 says "The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth."

This refers to grapes dried up in the fields, which could not be intoxicating.

Isaiah 65:8 says "Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."

Alcoholic wine in the cluster? No, the juice of the grape while in the cluster could not be intoxicating.

Jeremiah 48:33 says "And joy and gladness is taken from the plentiful field, and from the land of Moab; and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: none shall tread with shouting; their shouting shall be no shouting."

The wine of fresh squeezed grapes coming out of the winepress is grape juice and could not be fermented. Certainly other passages could be considered, but these are sufficient to illustrate that the word "wine" can refer to alcoholic wine or simply grape juice.

So one must look at the context and compare Scripture with Scripture to determine whether it is unfermented wine or fermented wine.

One has to look at all the facts in Luke chapter 7 so that they are making the right kind of comparison. Otherwise they are not looking at all the facts and it would be like a person trying to say that a car is the same thing as a non-powered bicycle.

So lets look at the facts here in context by looking at these passages and by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

John (the Baptist):

#1. The lie that John the Baptist had a devil.

(a) The Bible mentions that demon possessed people hung out in remote areas such as tombs (Mark 5:2 KJV).

(b) John the Baptist was but a voice crying in the wilderness (Matthew 3:3 KJV) (Luke 3:4 KJV). Wilderness was not a forest, but it was a remote location like a desert where not many people would normally reside.

(c) John the Baptist was told that he had a demon. It has been recorded in the Bible that a demon possessed person has hung out in a remote area (away from people).

#2. John the Baptist was told not to drink wine or strong drink. This probably included all forms of wine because it does not specify what type of wine it actually is. So if this is the case, then it would be like the Nazarite vow that had forbidden even the consumption of moist or dry grapes, too (Numbers 6:3 KJV).

#3. John the Baptist was told not to drink wine and eat bread. Both wine and bread are products of yeast or a leavening type process. Grape juice straight from the vine is not the result of a process of yeast and Jesus could drink this version of wine because it was considered a natural or good wine.

Versus.

Jesus Christ (Our Eternal God & Savior)

#1. Jesus (Son of Man) has come drinking and eating. The lie was that he was a winebiber and a glutton. We already know that wine can refer to unfermented wine. So this had to be a reference to drinking unfermented wine because Scripture warns against the dangers of wine and the Jews lies were always the polar opposite of what was actually true. For John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit and not a devil. So Jesus was the polar opposite of what of what would make a winebiber. For the far opposite extreme of a winebiber is an abstainer of alcoholic wine; And Jesus was far the exact opposite of being a glutton because he fasted for 40 days and 40 nights.

#2. The lie that Jesus is a friend of publicans and sinners. In fact, there is a popular song in Christian media today that promotes Jesus being a friend of sinners. Well, just look at the lyrics line by line here and then see if it matches up with the Word of God or not. Most of what is in the lyrics is a lie or a polar opposite of what the Bible actually says. For Jesus did not make friends with people that would continue to sin against Him. Jesus was around sinners to evangelize them. Jesus told men to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery that she was forgiven, but he also told her to sin no more. Jesus is not a friend of sinners who stay as sinners. He came to heal the sinners and to help them to destroy the works of the devil in their life (i.e. sin).

#3. Wisdom is justified by all her children (Luke 7:35 KJV). Wisdom is a woman (Proverbs 1:20 KJV) (Proverbs 7:4 KJV). Wisdom being a woman produces like kind of itself. God is the embodiment of wisdom; And what are the 9 fruits of the Spirit? Solomon talks about wine and wisdom in Ecclesiastes 2:3; He says, "I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly," Jesus did not give himself unto wine. He was the Holy Son of God and walked a life of perfection so that others could walk with Him if one struggled with a particular sin (like alcoholism).

So in conclusion:

We can see that John's life mission of evangelization was to reach people by them coming to a desert to hear him; And Jesus mission of evangelization was to reach people by evangelizing them in their own homes. Many of these men were probably considered winbibers and gluttons and so Jesus was associated with being friends of these types of sinners. Yet John was far away from where sinners hang out and he was but only a voice in the wilderness (Preparing the way for the Lord). Hence, why they called him a devil because devils hung out in remote areas such as tombs. So the contrast is one of taking into account all of the facts here; So we learn that the contrast here is one of John and Jesus's social life styles of how they evangelized the lost.
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Jul 22, 2014
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#8
Also, the Jews lies were not founded on truth. How do we know? In John chapter 8, the Jews accused Jesus of being born of fornication because they believe Jesus' mother Mary had relations with a man outside of marriage. However, does this accusation or lie mean that Jesus had a human father because he was born of fornication? No, it doesn't. It was completely an unfounded lie.
 
May 15, 2013
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#9
It was fermented wine or else it wouldn't have been considered as a miracle. It takes time for wine to reach its peak, but it only had taken seconds for the water to have fermented. And the drunkards wouldn't have had said that they has save the best for last, but most likely, they would of have spit it out. But making Kool-Aid isn't a miracle because everyone can make it in seconds.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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#10
All I can say is that good wine is wine from the best grapes, and aged for the proper amount of time. For the master of the feast to call it good wine, it had to contain alcohol. Grape juice would not cut it at a wedding feast during this era.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#11
I do not believe Jesus created high content alc wine so that people could get drunk off of it, for drunkenness is a sin. Remember, Jesus could only do what He saw the Father do.

John 5:19-20 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Now, what did Jesus see the Father do that day? Get drunk?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#12
I do not believe Jesus created high content alc wine so that people could get drunk off of it, for drunkenness is a sin. Remember, Jesus could only do what He saw the Father do.

John 5:19-20 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Now, what did Jesus see the Father do that day? Get drunk?
Maybe Jesus saw his father be happy. Have you ever been to a wedding reception?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#13
The things that seem impossible to man are possible to God. These folks were well drunk by the time Jesus made the wine. It is possible that they could no longer really taste much of anything. It does tell us that it was customary to serve the lower quality drink later because no one would care.

The only thing I can say with certainty is that the beverage Jesus made was no like any other that ever came before it. It's flavor and quality was far superior to any seen before. Alcohol is unimportant from a flavor aspect. Alcohol is not really a flavor enhancer. It does deaden the taste buds and the brain.

The bottom line is that we cannot know with certainty. We can only speculate until we see the Lord face to face and if we then think it important enough we can ask Him directly. As for me I don't expect to be all that obsessed about it then or now.

I do not drink alcohol or smoke because as well as lieth within me I want to abstain from all appearance of evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#14
It was fermented wine or else it wouldn't have been considered as a miracle. It takes time for wine to reach its peak, but it only had taken seconds for the water to have fermented. And the drunkards wouldn't have had said that they has save the best for last, but most likely, they would of have spit it out. But making Kool-Aid isn't a miracle because everyone can make it in seconds.
You are equating modern day tastes on wine with the Biblical version of tastes on wine. It is speaking quality and not the level of alcoholic content. In fact, wine tasters like the taste of the wine and do not judge a wine by how much alcoholic content is in it unless you are planning on getting drunk. But the Bible forbids a person in being drunk. So why would Jesus promote such a thing? As turning water into grape juice versus turning water into fermented wine, there is no difference between the two. Both would require an act of God in order to do this. Mixing powder into a glass is not a miracle or the same thing as turning water into unfermented grape juice.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#15
The things that seem impossible to man are possible to God. These folks were well drunk by the time Jesus made the wine. It is possible that they could no longer really taste much of anything. It does tell us that it was customary to serve the lower quality drink later because no one would care.

The only thing I can say with certainty is that the beverage Jesus made was no like any other that ever came before it. It's flavor and quality was far superior to any seen before. Alcohol is unimportant from a flavor aspect. Alcohol is not really a flavor enhancer. It does deaden the taste buds and the brain.

The bottom line is that we cannot know with certainty. We can only speculate until we see the Lord face to face and if we then think it important enough we can ask Him directly. As for me I don't expect to be all that obsessed about it then or now.

I do not drink alcohol or smoke because as well as lieth within me I want to abstain from all appearance of evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The bible says that Jesus turned water into wine. It does not say that He turned water into grape juice as that would be ludicrous. According to the chief wine steward it was high quality too. Wine is alcohol or maybe words don't really matter much in the bible.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#16
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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]Also, within the Scriptures, the Lord was about to destroy the cluster of grape and make new wine (or grape juice). For the voice said to the Lord in Isaiah 65:8, "destroy it (cluster) not." This is clearly unfermented wine (grape juice). This is in view because Jesus refers to "new wine" that goes into new wine skins.

In fact, this juice that is called the "new wine" is also referenced by Jesus, too. This new wine is recommended by Jesus to go into new bottles. This new wine is unfermented wine that has not gone thru the process of fermentation yet. Fermention is what causes the old bottle that has already been previously stretched to it's capacity from a previous batch of wine that has already undergone the fermentation process. Another process of fermentation would burst the old wine skin. So new unfermented wine needs to go into new wine skins that have not been stretched yet. For the process of wine going into the bottles was the way they fermented the wine (in Jesus' example). If you put old wine that has went thru it's full fermentation process, then old wine can reside within old skins.

Jesus favored the new wine because the wine at the Lord's supper represents His blood that was shed for the remission of sins for the NEW Testament and not the Old Testament. See, that is what the whole purpose of the wine miracle was all about. The Jews at the wedding had filled the ceremonial washing containers with water (Which represented the Old Testament). But Jesus turned them into wine. So the Jews could no longer wash themselves with these containers because it now contained wine that represented his blood that was shed for the remission of sins for the NEW Testament.

That's the whole point of the wine skins parable. You can't mix the Old Testament with the New Testament because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law of Moses upon the cross. Jesus established the New Covenant by his shed blood.
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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#17
I do not believe Jesus created high content alc wine so that people could get drunk off of it, for drunkenness is a sin. Remember, Jesus could only do what He saw the Father do.

John 5:19-20 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Now, what did Jesus see the Father do that day? Get drunk?
Here is the thing, God made all things.

But often do we humans abuse what God has given us. Even when it comes to salvation, our Lord gives us the salvation but we can chose to accept it or deny it.

Put this in place of the wine, He made the alcoholic wine, now it falls on the person who drinks it rather they drink it in the proper fashion or abuse it.

Once again alcoholic wine is not wrong, it is how it is drank that makes it wrong.

Making alcoholic wine would not be faulted on our Lord, the one who drinks it for the purpose to get drunk is who is faulted.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#18
The Lord did not drink alcoholic wine. Alcoholic wine is a drug and the Bible calls it a mocker and says it is not for kings. It also says it can bite you like a serpent. Alcoholic wine is a process of death. Yeast eats the sugar and poops out the by product of alcohol. It's a waste product from a micro organism.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#19
If God created alcoholic wine, then He would be encouraging all alcoholics that it is okay to drink alcoholic wine. This would be wrong.
 
May 15, 2013
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#20
In those times they had skinned the legs of an animal and had tied it at the bottom;and then pour wine into it and tied the top as well. But the skin could only last for so long until it use is finished. And so when a fresh batch is made, they throw away the old skin because there is a chance that its life is use up. So to make sure that no mistakes occurs they put new batches of wine into new batches of skin.