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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,637
10,814
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#41
Let me try this then- If christ is God then God is man, part of the creation- but god made everything, then he made man.
but- If God was christ and we are of christ then we are part of what was made like everything else and God is distinct from the creation.
-and as soon as he came up from the water of Johns baptism, the holy spirit descended upon him and when he had breathed his last, he gave up the spirit.
Your logic is flawed. Jesus is uniquely both God and human. He is fully human and fully God.

Read the other thread.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#42
No. You said plainly, quote;



But "love" is an emotion, not a function of FAITH.

But now you compound the issue by quoting Ezekiel 36:26. This refers to Israel, NOT the Church. Ezekiel 36:22 (KJV)
22 says who is addressed, and there can be no error for Israel alone "went among the heathen". "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went." See verse 24 as well. Added to this, the Church is not yet revealed to the prophets of old (Eph.3:5, 9, etc.)

But this is not all, you now write, quote,

But it is not a matter of the heart - but the human SPIRIT. "... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).



Corban, I really was shocked to hear you say what you said. I will answer only with the Scriptures:

(Deu 6:5) and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

(Jos 22:5b) .... to love Jehovah your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(Mat 22:37) And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(Rom 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

(Rom 8:39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(1Co 2:9) but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

(1Co 13:2) And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

(1Co 13:13) But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

(Gal 5:22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

(1Jn 5:2,3) Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

As far as your other statements, about the Spirit, rather than love, I have no comment other than to say, We worship in Spirit and Truth. Without the Spirit, no worship. Without the Truth, no worship. Finally, What is the fruit of the Spirit? See Gal.5:22
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#43
When you say "conversion"Is that the same as renewing the mind to the (regenerated) New Creation that the reborn person has become?
Conversion, like our sanctification (setting ourselves apart for Christ), is an ongoing experience. Conversion is not only the renewing of our minds but also the putting away of the old man and becoming a new creation in Christ. The more we grow in Grace and Knowledge, the more we become Christ like. Regeneration is all of God. Conversion is an ongoing process throughout our temporal existence, a process worked out by us with the help of the Holy Spirit.

PS Sorry I did not respond to you earlier, I am trying to keep up with individuals who have serious and genuine questions. Like the ones you are posing here. Hope you understand? Take care.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#44
The debate topic is jesus man/god duality. My two cents are- God was jesus, jesus was not God- You trust God, trust in me also; Through Christ God made the world...
A simple statement from me. If you do not believe Jesus Christ is God, then you deny John 1:1-2., as well as many other passages. This tells me you either have not studied the Holy Scriptures or you still need something you do not have. To believe that Christ is not God, is heresy. On this I make no apology.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#45
Brother, your initial posting contained many truths - truths that show a good working knowledge of the Bible. I dare say that you are not shocked at what I said because you never addressed what I wrote.

What you did address though, I have no disagreement with. But consider this; The verses you quoted do not have to do with "saving knowledge". They were a mixture of Old Testament and New Testament scriptures that insist that the Israelite, and later the Christian, love His God. But in this you already admit that they are God's people. That is, the Israelite must be BORN of the line of Isaac and Jacob and when he begins to comprehend his God, he must love Him. Likewise, the Christian must first be BORN of the Spirit, and then only is he instructed to love His God. Love in both cases does not effect the BIRTH. It comes AFTERWARDS.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#46
Awesome OP! Way to go! Welcome to the forums. Salute to you sir!
 
Aug 12, 2020
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#47
A simple statement from me. If you do not believe Jesus Christ is God, then you deny John 1:1-2., as well as many other passages. This tells me you either have not studied the Holy Scriptures or you still need something you do not have. To believe that Christ is not God, is heresy. On this I make no apology.
Every word spoken against the son of man will be forgiven
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
908
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#48
Brother, your initial posting contained many truths - truths that show a good working knowledge of the Bible. I dare say that you are not shocked at what I said because you never addressed what I wrote.

What you did address though, I have no disagreement with. But consider this; The verses you quoted do not have to do with "saving knowledge". They were a mixture of Old Testament and New Testament scriptures that insist that the Israelite, and later the Christian, love His God. But in this you already admit that they are God's people. That is, the Israelite must be BORN of the line of Isaac and Jacob and when he begins to comprehend his God, he must love Him. Likewise, the Christian must first be BORN of the Spirit, and then only is he instructed to love His God. Love in both cases does not effect the BIRTH. It comes AFTERWARDS.
We may have missed what each one of us was trying to get at. I was not referring to what would save a person, I was referring to a person who claimed salvation but knew not love. But did you say that love was a work? Or did I misunderstand you? Love is something we believers have to work at, as the fruit of the Spirit but is not a work for salvation, rather it is a test of salvation.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#49
That is correct. One cannot have a conversion experience unless that one has been regenerated. Regeneration=New Birth. As I pointed out, this is the sole work of God on the believer.

Let me say it like this... Since man is "dead in trespasses and sins" (spiritually speaking), due to the fall of Adam, who was the legal head of all mankind, we all fell in him.

Let's look at a simple example of what this means to all of us. If you are I are DEAD in trespasses and sins, then we need to be made alive, spiritually, in order to be saved. Since you had fallen overboard from the ship, spiritually speaking and are in need of salvation, someone (Christ), throws you a life line, it would do you NO good because you are DEAD. DEAD persons cannot grab the life line nor can someone who is DEAD comprehend what it is that was thrown. On the other hand, if you had been made alive, spiritually speaking, previous to the life line being thrown, you would know clearly that you were in trouble and you would grab hold and hang on tight, for your eternal life with your Savior depends on it. The nice thing is, He makes sure you can grab it and makes sure you will never let go.

I hope that helps.
So then we need "irresistible grace" Correct?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,765
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#50
Let me try this then- If christ is God then God is man, part of the creation- but god made everything, then he made man.
but- If God was christ and we are of christ then we are part of what was made like everything else and God is distinct from the creation.
-and as soon as he came up from the water of Johns baptism, the holy spirit descended upon him and when he had breathed his last, he gave up the spirit.
Hi jcollins! Let's assume for the moment that Jesus Christ is not God. It says at Isaiah 44:24 the following: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSEL And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." It could not be more clear that the Lord God created all thing alone and by Himself.

Now look at John 1:3 referring to Jesus Christ. "ALL things came into being BY HIM, (now watch this part jcollings,) and APART from Him (or without Jesus Christ) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Since God created all things alone and by Himself, why would He need the man only who is not God according to you need any help in creating things and WITHOUT Jesus nothin has come into being. How do you explain this? How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction from Isaiah 44:24 and here at John 1:3?

And, to make matters even worse for you, perhaps you can explain Colossians 1:16, "For by Him/Jesus Christ ALL things were created, both in the heavens and on the earth, (I thought Isaiah said God stretched the heavens and the earth by Himself), visible and invisible, whether thrones of dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him."

You want some more bad news for you? Hebrews 1:10 where God the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking about His Son. "Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." So my question still stands. Why is Jesus Christ who you say is not God clearly identified in the scriptures above as the creator?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#51
Maybe I can help you with this seed time. The following is what David said at Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." On the other hand Jesus was not conceived in sin because His Father was God.
Matthew 1:20, the last sentence. "for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

If you notice in reading your Bible, specifically the New Testament you will see that Jesus oftentimes referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." He has two natures, one on His mothers side which is human, and one on His Father's side which is deity.

It's a universal law that a son shares the same nature as its father. Moreover, if you read the New Testament, especially at the trial of Jesus at Matthew 26:63 the high priest Caiaphas ask Jesus the following: "I adjure You by the living God, that you tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."

He is asking the one person of Jesus Christ to swear as to His identity. (1) Are you the Christ/Messiah and (2) are You the Son of God? The Jews here are accusing Jesus of blasphemy. Now think for a second? Why would the Jews ask Jesus to swear that He is the Son of God since the Jews themselves claim to be the sons of God? The answer is that they knew Jesus was claiming to be God. That is also why they quoted the law from Leviticus 24:16 which talks about blasphemy.

The problem is that the Jews (like others) did not believe Jesus that He was truly God's one and only begotten Son. (John 3:16). Also notice the Apostle John"a authorial intent at John 20:30-31, "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book. vs31, but these have been written that you MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST/MESSIAH, THE SON OF GOD." Hope this helps.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I understand that more that he claimed to be a apostle sent by God. And not sent to do the will of the corrupted flesh. It would prove to not be of the father . The father not seen worked in the Son of man to both will and do the good pleasure of God .The father provided the power.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 
Jul 6, 2020
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#53
CC might have been posted on atheist reddit. That would be one possible explanation for what's been happening lately. I don't know, but seems like no, we are being bombarded with people who don't think Christ is God. CC was posted somewhere, mark my words. People who don't believe Christ is God normally aren't interested to join, definitely not many at once.
Thinking of a line from a song.
Oh the times they are a changing....
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#54
Yes we need the power of God's faith working in us. Without that labor of His love no man could please God
irresistible grace=the power of GODs faith working In us.
I don’t think that Is what many people consider to be Irresistible grace.
I think they would see It more like Calvinism.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,903
8,440
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#55
Let me try this then- If christ is God then God is man, part of the creation- but god made everything, then he made man.
Mr. Collins, you do sound rather confused. It is Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- who is the Creator, and He is the one who also created the first man Adam (John 1:1-3). But He has always been -- and always will be -- God.

At the same time, because of Adam's disobedience, the Word chose to become "the second Adam" (the last Adam) by taking human form. But He always remained the God-Man who would die for the sins of the whole world. Thus the Creator became a human being -- Jesus of Nazareth. That is the only way that He could die, and then rise again.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#56
Mr. Collins, you do sound rather confused. It is Christ -- the eternal Word of God -- who is the Creator, and He is the one who also created the first man Adam (John 1:1-3). But He has always been -- and always will be -- God.

At the same time, because of Adam's disobedience, the Word chose to become "the second Adam" (the last Adam) by taking human form. But He always remained the God-Man who would die for the sins of the whole world. Thus the Creator became a human being -- Jesus of Nazareth. That is the only way that He could die, and then rise again.

The Creator worked in a human being. God is not a man .
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#57
We may have missed what each one of us was trying to get at. I was not referring to what would save a person, I was referring to a person who claimed salvation but knew not love. But did you say that love was a work? Or did I misunderstand you? Love is something we believers have to work at, as the fruit of the Spirit but is not a work for salvation, rather it is a test of salvation.
In your OP, which I appreciated very much in the things you revealed about our Lord Jesus, you made the following observation. Quote

In order that we have a saving knowledge of whom Christ is, we must understand Him as presented in Holy Scripture. The following would not be saving knowledge of Jesus Christ:
...
- To not love Christ more than anything in this world. More than your mother, father, wife, husband children or anything else this world has to offer.
I think that the average murderer, abused person, sinner, soldier and/or thief who turns to Christ, and, as Romans 10:9-10 tells;

9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"


... does not need to love Christ as you stipulated for "saving knowledge". Love, as we know, has three words in the Greek. "Eros" - the attraction of, or toward a person who attracts, "philadelphia" - brotherly love or the love between two persons, and "agape" - the divine and perfect love that is God's nature. "Eros" does not come into the equation because we do not know Christ "according to the flesh" (2nd Cor.5:16). So a newly confessed believer must undergo a process whereby he/she falls in love with Christ (philadelphia). Falling in love needs the process of getting to know the person and deeply appreciating their attributes. In fact "philadelphia" is a mystery. Can anyone explain why I love my wife and not any one of the other (eligible) women I have ever met? Be that as it may, the point I make is that loving Christ is not "saving knowledge".

Needless to say to a man of your Bible knowledge, when we are born again, we receive Christ in His fullness to us (Col.2:10). And as we eat Christ, study Him and behold Him, we are transformed (2nd Cor.3:18) and He is "formed" in our hearts (Gal.4:19; Eph.3:17). That is, His nature, over the years, if we nurse a close relationship with Him, permeates us, and towards the end of our lives, we can love Him perfectly with "agape". But, as I pointed out in a previous posting, "agape" is the last stage of "adding attributes" (2n Pet.1:7). In this case it is not that we have fallen in love with Him, but that His nature, which is love, has permeated, or been formed in our souls.

I believe that the process of getting saved is very short and simple - as Romans 10 above says. It is to be noted that the thief on the cross next to Jesus at first joined the mockers (Matt.27:44). It was some time later in that six hour bracket that the one thief had a complete change of heart. As he hung in the same physical agony as our Lord Jesus, he uttered few words. He also did not live long enough to learn of all the things you posted in your OP. But he is immediately accepted by the Lord. "Saving knowledge" is not "comprehensive knowledge". It is the sudden dawning, or realization, of Who this Person Jesus is, and the subsequent confession of it.
 
Aug 12, 2020
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#58
Hi jcollins! Let's assume for the moment that Jesus Christ is not God. It says at Isaiah 44:24 the following: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of ALL things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSEL And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." It could not be more clear that the Lord God created all thing alone and by Himself.

Now look at John 1:3 referring to Jesus Christ. "ALL things came into being BY HIM, (now watch this part jcollings,) and APART from Him (or without Jesus Christ) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Since God created all things alone and by Himself, why would He need the man only who is not God according to you need any help in creating things and WITHOUT Jesus nothin has come into being. How do you explain this? How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction from Isaiah 44:24 and here at John 1:3?

And, to make matters even worse for you, perhaps you can explain Colossians 1:16, "For by Him/Jesus Christ ALL things were created, both in the heavens and on the earth, (I thought Isaiah said God stretched the heavens and the earth by Himself), visible and invisible, whether thrones of dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him."

You want some more bad news for you? Hebrews 1:10 where God the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking about His Son. "Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." So my question still stands. Why is Jesus Christ who you say is not God clearly identified in the scriptures above as the creator?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Thank you, Bluto, for your contribution to the discussion. Which is what it is. From this standpoint i will assemble my best response. If you believe the lord of the old testament (jehovah) is god you are required to live according to his laws. In the new testament a posit is made that men cannot achieve this. If you think Paul was the mans man and as pious as a wooden yamaka then know despite being flawless in his execution of the law, christ still found fault in him. Indeed, does it speak to your heart to watch men beat someone to death, according to law? Do you think a man who kills a man is the devils pawn and deserves to be killed? Or do you think a man does not wish to kill a man, but is tempted to do so wrongly. Who then tempted pauls men to kill Stephen?

If you you thought christ was the embodiment of law, in as much as we are all men, made in Gods image all facing the same common problems and have felt the urge to liberate a foul persons eyeballs from their home, but resisted, even if said home wanted to do you harm, in contravention to the law and found a resonance in christs grace and mercy, then your behavior and the law you abide by will be quite different. In fact if you try to enforce those laws, you will die in your sins.

It is a philosophy and a trap to deny God his omnipresence and relegate him to a flesh form. If god fills heaven and earth and cannot reside even in gilded cedar/stone temples his being cannot surely be crammed in one fleshy bipod. It is not a philosophy to say while you are on earth, and you are a man, you are meant to be christ and not paul or even king david. When you emulate christ, even though your operating system is corrupt(and everyone else too) you teach the world or whomever, what is means to be a human being.

The bible is full of goadings some of divinity some of righteousness, some are traps and pits and snares . If jehovah was god and christ is gods son, and judeaism is the worship of jehovah, why dont they use the new testament? Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric. If you arent using it to understand life and humanity and suffering, but to understand god, all the paths therein end in death. If you want a list of relevant bible verses, i can make one, but it would take a long time so, i started inside the first black cover and read to other one.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,637
10,814
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#59
Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric. If you arent using it to understand life and humanity and suffering, but to understand god, all the paths therein end in death.
"The bible is spurious and esoteric"?

Dude, you're in the wrong forum. The atheistic philosophers' forum is waaaay over there, in the outer darkness.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#60
Now, i will go one step futher and say, ALL this information and the bible is spurious and esoteric.
spurious
Dictionary


spu·ri·ous
/ˈsp(y)o͝orēəs/

adjective
  1. not being what it purports to be; false or fake.
    "separating authentic and spurious claims"