Jesus's God?

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Feb 23, 2011
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#41
And I still can't understand how in the world people who profess to be Christians get the Trinity wrong.
There is much you can't understand.

It's not God divided into three.

I believe in ONE GOD, who is three persons, in one being, one being, in three persons.

God divded into three distinct beings would be tri-theism, a belief in three Gods.
Still too discrete, rather than distinct. Do you ever stop and wonder and marvel and ask God and pray and fast? Or just assert and declare?
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#43
Verse 13 is possibly the most hotly disputed translational grammatical construct in all the NT. I wouldn't use that as a proof-text. Anyway, all you need is morphe (G3444) from Philippians 2.



Inference. This in no way says the Spirit is a person just because the Spirit "gave them utterance".



Actually, Jesus hath been made both Lord and Christ (v36).



Not really, or it would be indisputable and there wouldn't be any Unitarians or Binitarians; and maybe no Arians.


Jesus IS Deity... but HOW? The truth is something many have considered in some small way, but haven't been able to get past their indoctrination to pursue.

Philippians 2 is the primary key to the Deity of Christ... form (morphe G3444).
Right...but I don't think that it's the "primary key" to His Deity...it's one of the most clear cut and obvious showings of His Deity, but there are many more verses that show it as well.




Verse 13 is possibly the most hotly disputed translational grammatical construct in all the NT. I wouldn't use that as a proof-text. Anyway, all you need is morphe (G3444) from Philippians 2.
It is? Huh...well, I guess I won't use that one...not ;) Really, though, I don't need to. (and plus, I didn't say look at it alone, look at it in context as well)



Actually, Jesus hath been made both Lord and Christ (v36).
Not really, or it would be indisputable and there wouldn't be any Unitarians or Binitarians; and maybe no Arians.
It pretty much is indisputable, in its own nature...yet people try to argue about it (?).
If people were going to use this sort of logic, then we may as well reject Christianity because there are Muslims in the world. What is indisputable is made disputable.

I think this may be a "wanting to hear what they want to hear" examples. We would love to put God in a box, be able to understand His nature, ALL of His mysteries, etc.
This just seems like proudness to me. People want to be part of a minority so they can feel different in some way. Yeah, it sounds kind of ridiculous, but I don't know, it just seems like it to me.

Jesus IS Deity... but HOW? The truth is something many have considered in some small way, but haven't been able to get past their indoctrination to pursue

True, Jesus is Deity; He is Truth.

If you're talking about indoctrination, mine...well, I don't really have much, considering my family's background.

I'll tell you the truth, I really have had times of doubt, doubting the Trinity was real. I even became an Assyrian for a little while, in mind...but once I looked at the Scriptures again, I just couldn't deny God, the one True God.

And through all of this debate my faith is even more strengthened. And I'm thankful to God for all of it :)
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#44
There is much you can't understand.
Mature.


Still too discrete, rather than distinct. Do you ever stop and wonder and marvel and ask God and pray and fast? Or just assert and declare?[/
Do I ever stop and wonder?
Last night I got on my knees and fell down on my face before the Lord, praying and praying for the answer to come to me, not on my time but His, not in my will but His will.

The moment we begin saying that we are right, we are wrong. Because He is the only one who is right. He IS the Truth.
The moment we begin saying that our way is best, we lead others astray. Because He is the only way. He IS the Way.
The moment we try to save our lives, put it into our hands, we lose it. Because He is the only life.
He IS the Life.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#45
Dear mpaper345. There IS a DISTINCTION of Persons within God. The Father is the Father, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. The Son is the Son, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. To confuse the persons is to fall into polytheism or Sabellianism or tritheism.
Not true. I affirn the F-S-HS distinction, but not as discrete "persons". The F-S-HS aren't person(s) (prosopon G4383). Only the Incarnate Word is called person (2Cor. 2:10); but is usually rendered more appropriately face or presence when referring even to Jesus. Hebrews 1:3 is substance (hupostasis G5287), just like faith is in Hebrews 11:1.

Or at least, it is confusing to confuse the persons, ISTM!
There are no "persons" to confound. The F-S-HS are distinct, but not three "persons".

We can not hope to understand or comprehend God the Trinity, only to faithfully believe in Him and worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
Then why formulate an intricate doctrine? Everyone always declares mystery at the perimeter of their own understanding, but are resolute and unyielding to that point. It's "I know everything absolutely... up to this point of mystery where no one can know the unknowable.". What?!?!

How is there an absolute adamant formulation about something so self-asserted as unknowable? Absurd.

Any false teaching in regard to the Trinity has consequences, as does the semi-Sabellianism that is the FILIOQUE HERESY. Take care.
The same is true of the error of incompleteness in Trinity...even more so for its pervasive influence of indoctrination by default. Trinity is NOT the Word; it is a doctrinal formulation of man. The Bishops weren't 100% correct, and the Creeds aren't inspired as Word.

Eternal life is to know Him... (John 17:3), not to assent to doctrine.

I affirm 95+% of Trinity AND 95+% of Oneness. And all the other God-models are reconcilable to the truth as well.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#46
Right...but I don't think that it's the "primary key" to His Deity...it's one of the most clear cut and obvious showings of His Deity, but there are many more verses that show it as well.
A strong Unitarian apologist is possibly the most difficult opponent you could face in a Godhead debate. EVERY verse you've posted has a strong Uni rebuttal that few can refute. You're oblivious and over-confident. I personally know a 24yo brilliant Bible researcher that flipped from Trini to Uni, and he would rip anyone on this board to shreds. I'm twice his age and this is a bulk of my ministry, and I've been challenged as never before by his thorough Uni stance.

It is? Huh...well, I guess I won't use that one...not ;) Really, though, I don't need to. (and plus, I didn't say look at it alone, look at it in context as well)
Whether you realize it or not, I'm trying to help sharpen you with more and better information to strengthen you; not just argue or debate a theological topic with you. The above info could/should be useful to you rather than a point of contention.







It pretty much is indisputable, in its own nature...yet people try to argue about it (?).
If people were going to use this sort of logic, then we may as well reject Christianity because there are Muslims in the world. What is indisputable is made disputable.

I think this may be a "wanting to hear what they want to hear" examples. We would love to put God in a box, be able to understand His nature, ALL of His mysteries, etc.
This just seems like proudness to me. People want to be part of a minority so they can feel different in some way. Yeah, it sounds kind of ridiculous, but I don't know, it just seems like it to me.




True, Jesus is Deity; He is Truth.

If you're talking about indoctrination, mine...well, I don't really have much, considering my family's background.

I'll tell you the truth, I really have had times of doubt, doubting the Trinity was real. I even became an Assyrian for a little while, in mind...but once I looked at the Scriptures again, I just couldn't deny God, the one True God.

And through all of this debate my faith is even more strengthened. And I'm thankful to God for all of it :)[/QUOTE]
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#47
A strong Unitarian apologist is possibly the most difficult opponent you could face in a Godhead debate. EVERY verse you've posted has a strong Uni rebuttal that few can refute. You're oblivious and over-confident. I personally know a 24yo brilliant Bible researcher that flipped from Trini to Uni, and he would rip anyone on this board to shreds. I'm twice his age and this is a bulk of my ministry, and I've been challenged as never before by his thorough Uni stance.
Well, for my benefit, could you post a rebuttle to every verse I've posted?


Whether you realize it or not, I'm trying to help sharpen you with more and better information to strengthen you; not just argue or debate a theological topic with you. The above info could/should be useful to you rather than a point of contention.
No, I know you're trying, and thank you for that. And I am getting more information out of it, albet probably not going in the direction you would want it to go.

And it is useful, and it's wrong for me to just toss off Scripture like Philippians 2:5-11.

What I'm saying, though, is that there are many other verses that prove His deity...so I don't really need to depend on those few verses. You know what I mean?



Thank you for your time

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. (1 Corinthians 3:18-19)
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#48
.






And there are many, many, many more words that affirm this, many more verses. These ones I just "hand-picked" through my own study.

And this goes to the root of the problem. Mans studying, mans thinking which overrides the plainest of Biblical statements





God Bless you, and I hope you come to accept the Saving Power that is Jesus Christ, the Only God.
I take it from the above quote you do not believe I am saved because I believe Christ is the son of God and not God Himself

I guess I should be grateful you havew not(thus far) called me a heretic as have some. But of course Bibliocally you are completely wrong.

Whoever believes Jesus is the son of God has God living in him and he in God
1 John 4:15

I think that is quite plainly written.

I don't know of any other religions sacred books. But I wonder what it would say for the Bible if the central belief of Christianity was believing Christ is God.

Because I know of no plainly written statement in the Bible that says Christ is God Himself, do you? But I do know of many plainly written statements that says he is not.

I think you would agree the Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I think that if you are correct in your thinking the plain statements on this matter would support your belief, not mine.

And Christ never commanded anyone to believe he was God, but rather the son of God. But we have many today who demand what Christ did not, and believe those who do not believe Christ is God are not saved.

My advice wqould be not to rely on your own study, or churches/theologians that you may have heard sermons/read literature from. Come in simple faith and believe the plainest of statements on this subject and start from there
For if you are right, God Himself has to refer to someone as 'His God'. Such logic is beyond me!
 
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Z

zackabba

Guest
#49
I take it from the above quote you do not believe I am saved because I believe Christ is the son of God and not God Himself

I guess I should be grateful you havew not(thus far) called me a heretic as have some. But of course Bibliocally you are completely wrong.


Whoever believes Jesus is the son of God has God living in him and he in God
1 John 4:15

I think that is quite plainly written.

I don't know of any other religions sacred books. But I wonder what it would say for the Bible if the central belief of Christianity was believing Christ is God.

Because I know of no plainly written statement in the Bible that says Christ is God Himself, do you? But I do know of many plainly written statements that says he is not.

I think you would agree the Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I think that if you are correct in your thinking the plain statements on this matter would support your belief, not mine.

And Christ never commanded anyone to believe he was God, but rather the son of God. But we have many today who demand what Christ did not, and believe those who do not believe Christ is God are not saved.

My advice wqould be not to rely on your own study, or churches/theologians that you may have heard sermons/read literature from. Come in simple faith and believe the plainest of statements on this subject and start from there
For if you are right, God Himself has to refer to someone as 'His God'. Such logic is beyond me!

Okay.

Romans 9:3-5
For bI could wish that I myself were caccursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,1 my kinsmen daccording to the flesh. 4 They are eIsraelites, and to them belong fthe adoption, gthe glory, hthe covenants, ithe giving of the law, jthe worship, and kthe promises. 5 To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all,

blessed forever. Amen


2 Peter 1:1
Simeon1 Peter, a servant2 and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained aa faith of equal standing with ours bby the righteousness of our cGod and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 dMay grace and peace be multiplied to you ein the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and rhas given us understanding, so that we may know shim who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and teternal life.



Do I need to post any more, or no? I think these state it pretty clearly.


(And by the way, you may have missed it accidently, but I posted these same verses earlier on here. Or maybe you saw them but didn't look them up.)


God Bless

 
Feb 23, 2011
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#50
(Last post fritzed. Continued here.)

It pretty much is indisputable,
As I said, a strong Uni will tear you to shreds. You'll just be oblivious to it for the most part I suppose.

in its own nature...yet people try to argue about it (?).
If people were going to use this sort of logic, then we may as well reject Christianity because there are Muslims in the world. What is indisputable is made disputable.
No comment on the goofy Muslim part. I'm saying learn the dispute!! Yield to the text; don't wield the text.

I think this may be a "wanting to hear what they want to hear" examples. We would love to put God in a box, be able to understand His nature, ALL of His mysteries, etc.
This just seems like proudness to me. People want to be part of a minority so they can feel different in some way. Yeah, it sounds kind of ridiculous, but I don't know, it just seems like it to me.
Trinis are the trend-setters here. Myopic fixation on a specified absolute... then unknowable mystery when the absolute runs out. Monumental double standard.

True, Jesus is Deity; He is Truth.

If you're talking about indoctrination, mine...well, I don't really have much, considering my family's background.
This level of indoctrination isn't personal, it's institutional. It's orthodoxy. It's the letter which killeth, not the Spirit which giveth life.

I'll tell you the truth, I really have had times of doubt, doubting the Trinity was real. I even became an Assyrian for a little while, in mind...but once I looked at the Scriptures again, I just couldn't deny God, the one True God.
Do you mean Arian? Nobody's talking about denying God. It's about the pursuit of truly knowing who He is.

And through all of this debate my faith is even more strengthened. And I'm thankful to God for all of it :)
Faith isn't in a doctrinal formulation.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#51
Why does it constantly say in the Bible, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?"

Like in Ephesians, for example?

If Jesus is God, why does it say he has a God?

BECAUSE JESUS IS THE WORD THAT COMES OUT THE MOUTH OF GOD.
THE WORD IS NOT GOD BUT THE WORD OF GOD?? GOD IS ALLWAYS IN CHARGE OF HIS WORD.
I AM IN CHARGE OF MY WORD AND SO ARE YOU AND SO ARE ALL OF US, THE WORD CAN NEVER GO ON ITS OWN. GOD WILL ALLWAYS BE IN CHARGE OF HIS WORD.
GOD MADE FLESH HIS WORD , FOR US TO SEE, HEAR,TOUCH,WE HAVE SEEN THE IMAGE OF GOD.
BUT LOOKS AND SHAPE IS OF NO RELEVANCE,IT IS WHAT HE SAYS AND WHAT HE DOES, AND WHAT HE TEACH. IN OTHER WORDS WHAT HE REPRESENTS NO TEACHER IN THE WORLD CAN EXEAT HIS
WISDOM.THEREFORE, WE CAN ONLY COME TO GOD BY HIM AND NO OTHER.THE HOLY BIBLE IS,
THE WORD OF GOD IN PRINT, WE MUST FOLLOW THOSE WORDS AND PUT IT INTO PRACTICE.

REGARDS , WAKEUP.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#52
As I said, a strong Uni will tear you to shreds. You'll just be oblivious to it for the most part I suppose.

Okay, well, I have yet for a "Uni" to tear me to shreds.



No comment on the goofy Muslim part. I'm saying learn the dispute!! Yield to the text; don't wield the text.

...



Trinis are the trend-setters here. Myopic fixation on a specified absolute... then unknowable mystery when the absolute runs out. Monumental double standard.

...okay



This level of indoctrination isn't personal, it's institutional. It's orthodoxy. It's the letter which killeth, not the Spirit which giveth life.

Alrighty then.



Do you mean Arian? Nobody's talking about denying God. It's about the pursuit of truly knowing who He is.

Yep, and I would agree.



Faith isn't in a doctrinal formulation.

Have you checked your tent lately?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#53
Okay.

Romans 9:3-5
For bI could wish that I myself were caccursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,1 my kinsmen daccording to the flesh. 4 They are eIsraelites, and to them belong fthe adoption, gthe glory, hthe covenants, ithe giving of the law, jthe worship, and kthe promises. 5 To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all,

blessed forever. Amen

You firstly need to understand that many were refered to as God's in Biblical terms to whom the message came. Christ is now in one sense 'God over all' as everything has bneen put under his feet.

In Heb 1:8&9 the Father says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and anointed you with the oil of joy

So Christ has the title God, but the Father is still the God of Christ. For the Father is the one true God, that is the important thing to remember
2 Peter 1:1



Simeon1 Peter, a servant2 and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained aa faith of equal standing with ours bby the righteousness of our cGod and Savior Jesus Christ:



Answered above



2 dMay grace and peace be multiplied to you ein the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.​

1 John 5:20​

And we know that the Son of God has come and rhas given us understanding, so that we may know shim who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and teternal life.

You are reading this wrongly, otherwise Christ did not speak the truth in John 17:3

And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Do I need to post any more, or no? I think these state it pretty clearly.​


(And by the way, you may have missed it accidently, but I posted these same verses earlier on here. Or maybe you saw them but didn't look them up.)​


God Bless​
Now, may I ask you a question? Who was the God of Isael who was with them in ther wilderness?

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire clear as the sky itself
But God did not raise his hand against these leaders. They saw God and they ate and drank

Ex 24:9-11


No-one has ever seen God
1 John4:12

No man hath seen God at anytime: the only begotten son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath made him known John 1:18
 
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Mar 11, 2009
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#54
Why does it constantly say in the Bible, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?"

Like in Ephesians, for example?

If Jesus is God, why does it say he has a God?
Peace be to you
God does not lie,heb 6-18,
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

So lets see who God says Jesus is;math,
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So lets see who Jesus desciples say he is,
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Now lets see who Jesus christ says he is;john,
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
You notice in acks the condition for baptism was believe he was Gods son.acks8
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

eph 6;Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.


Love a friend in God


 
Feb 23, 2011
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#55
Well, for my benefit, could you post a rebuttle to every verse I've posted?
If I were going to do something for your benefit, I'd give you the truth. But you want Trinity, like you indicated about others in your previous post. You don't want to hear/know anything else. You're 17, and already an entrenched and bent on Trinitarianism at any cost. Your interest is not picqued; your curiosity is not aroused; you're not really searching for anything beyond what you "know", just more OF what you "know".

I could post 50 questions that proof-texting won't touch. Like...

Exactly how do the F-S-HS all dwell in us? Scripture says each is in us. If none are either of the others, how are all three in us?

How is it that the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father? Exactly.

How is it that Jesus proceeded forth and came from God? Exactly.

What's the Logos (Word)? In detail. How did the Word become flesh? Exactly.

No, I know you're trying, and thank you for that. And I am getting more information out of it, albet probably not going in the direction you would want it to go.
I'd be happy if you just backed off to a neutral position equivalent to your understanding and spent more time searching. After 28 years as a lost Trinitarian, I've spent the last 13 years praying, fasting, and studying to have a deep experiential revelation understanding of who God is.

Do you hope to know more at 21... 25... 32... 40... and beyond? Do you really think you're at some pinnacle now?

And it is useful, and it's wrong for me to just toss off Scripture like Philippians 2:5-11.

What I'm saying, though, is that there are many other verses that prove His deity...so I don't really need to depend on those few verses. You know what I mean?
I know what you mean, but I also know the rebuttals for what you're sure of. You'll find out sooner or later.

The Deity of Christ is one thing. "Proving" Trinity is quite another. It's too bad that you're not as open and teachable as you are tenacious.

Thank you for your time

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. (1 Corinthians 3:18-19)
I've lived by this for years, challenging every belief I've ever had. I've become foolish, trusting His Word and Wisdom.

Perhaps you could heed it ad well...
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#56
As I said, a strong Uni will tear you to shreds. You'll just be oblivious to it for the most part I suppose.

Okay, well, I have yet for a "Uni" to tear me to shreds.

No comment on the goofy Muslim part. I'm saying learn the dispute!! Yield to the text; don't wield the text.

Trinis are the trend-setters here. Myopic fixation on a specified absolute... then unknowable mystery when the absolute runs out. Monumental double standard.

...okay

This level of indoctrination isn't personal, it's institutional. It's orthodoxy. It's the letter which killeth, not the Spirit which giveth life.

Alrighty then.

Do you mean Arian? Nobody's talking about denying God. It's about the pursuit of truly knowing who He is.

Yep, and I would agree.

Faith isn't in a doctrinal formulation.

Have you checked your tent lately?
Back atcha. And this is where we leave the pubescent at the mercy of themselves.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#57
Quote:
Originally Posted by zackabba

Okay.

Romans 9:3-5
For bI could wish that I myself were caccursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,1 my kinsmen daccording to the flesh. 4 They are eIsraelites, and to them belong fthe adoption, gthe glory, hthe covenants, ithe giving of the law, jthe worship, and kthe promises. 5 To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all,

blessed forever. Amen

You firstly need to understand that many were refered to as God's in Biblical terms to whom the message came. Christ is now in one sense 'God over all' as everything has bneen put under his feet.

In Heb 1:8&9 the Father says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and anointed you with the oil of joy

So Christ has the title God, but the Father is still the God of Christ. For the Father is the one true God, that is the important thing to remember

Right. Jesus is subordinate to God the Father, yet He is still God. This is why He is said to be worshipped, commanded to be, in Revelation 5. The Father on the throne AND the Lamb.



2 Peter 1:1



Simeon1 Peter, a servant2 and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained aa faith of equal standing with ours bby the righteousness of our cGod and Savior Jesus Christ:




Answered above

Read this again. Our God AND Saviour, Jesus Christ. He is God over all, everything has been put under His feet, AND He is the Saviour. The only being given this title of Saviour in the Bible is God.

2 dMay grace and peace be multiplied to you ein the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.


1 John 5:20


And we know that the Son of God has come and rhas given us understanding, so that we may know shim who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and teternal life.

You are reading this wrongly, otherwise Christ did not speak the truth in John 17:3

John 17:3 is Jesus's prayer to God the Father, the only true God...I don't understand what you're getting at with this.
Again, Jesus is the only true God as well. Why does He accept worship if He is not God? That would be idolatry, something God in the flesh would not commit.


And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

I'm sorry, I'm lost.
Even if you use this translation, it doesn't say that Jesus isn't true, does it?
"I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life." (John 14:6)
WHO is true? God.
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him (John 14:7)

We are in Jesus Christ, who is true, the true God.



Do I need to post any more, or no? I think these state it pretty clearly.



(And by the way, you may have missed it accidently, but I posted these same verses earlier on here. Or maybe you saw them but didn't look them up.)



God Bless

Now, may I ask you a question? Who was the God of Isael who was with them in ther wilderness?

Who was the God of Israel? ...the God of Israel.


Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire clear as the sky itself
But God did not raise his hand against these leaders. They saw God and they ate and drank

Ex 24:9-11


No-one has ever seen God
1 John4:12

No man hath seen God at anytime: the only begotten son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath made him known John 1:18

I think I missed something. Are you trying to point out some contradiction now?

I'll just refer you back to John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Hebrews 1:8-12

8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#58
Quote:
Originally Posted by zackabba

Okay.

Romans 9:3-5
For bI could wish that I myself were caccursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,1 my kinsmen daccording to the flesh. 4 They are eIsraelites, and to them belong fthe adoption, gthe glory, hthe covenants, ithe giving of the law, jthe worship, and kthe promises. 5 To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all,

blessed forever. Amen

You firstly need to understand that many were refered to as God's in Biblical terms to whom the message came. Christ is now in one sense 'God over all' as everything has bneen put under his feet.

In Heb 1:8&9 the Father says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and anointed you with the oil of joy

So Christ has the title God, but the Father is still the God of Christ. For the Father is the one true God, that is the important thing to remember

Right. Jesus is subordinate to God the Father, yet He is still God. This is why He is said to be worshipped, commanded to be, in Revelation 5. The Father on the throne AND the Lamb.



2 Peter 1:1



Simeon1 Peter, a servant2 and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained aa faith of equal standing with ours bby the righteousness of our cGod and Savior Jesus Christ:




Answered above

Read this again. Our God AND Saviour, Jesus Christ. He is God over all, everything has been put under His feet, AND He is the Saviour. The only being given this title of Saviour in the Bible is God.

2 dMay grace and peace be multiplied to you ein the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.


1 John 5:20


And we know that the Son of God has come and rhas given us understanding, so that we may know shim who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and teternal life.

You are reading this wrongly, otherwise Christ did not speak the truth in John 17:3

John 17:3 is Jesus's prayer to God the Father, the only true God...I don't understand what you're getting at with this.
Again, Jesus is the only true God as well. Why does He accept worship if He is not God? That would be idolatry, something God in the flesh would not commit.


And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM THAT IS TRUE, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

I'm sorry, I'm lost.
Even if you use this translation, it doesn't say that Jesus isn't true, does it?
"I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life." (John 14:6)
WHO is true? God.
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him (John 14:7)

We are in Jesus Christ, who is true, the true God.



Do I need to post any more, or no? I think these state it pretty clearly.



(And by the way, you may have missed it accidently, but I posted these same verses earlier on here. Or maybe you saw them but didn't look them up.)



God Bless

Now, may I ask you a question? Who was the God of Isael who was with them in ther wilderness?

Who was the God of Israel? ...the God of Israel.


Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire clear as the sky itself
But God did not raise his hand against these leaders. They saw God and they ate and drank

Ex 24:9-11


No-one has ever seen God
1 John4:12

No man hath seen God at anytime: the only begotten son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath made him known John 1:18

I think I missed something. Are you trying to point out some contradiction now?

I'll just refer you back to John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Hebrews 1:8-12

8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”
When I was your age I thought I had all the answers and spoke accordingly. I agree with an earlier comment concernig your words. Basically you ignore the plain words of Christ, the Apostle Paul and John, because you follow blindly theologians and your own natural thinking based on what you have been told
I hope and pray that as you advance in years you may trust not in these fallible people but the plain words of the bible

God Bless you
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#59
Quote:
Originally Posted by zackabba

Well, for my benefit, could you post a rebuttle to every verse I've posted?

If I were going to do something for your benefit, I'd give you the truth.

I have the truth, Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.


But you want Trinity, like you indicated about others in your previous post. You don't want to hear/know anything else.

So you just want to assume everything now?



You're 17,

Wow! How'd you know that? That's amazing!

and already an entrenched and bent on Trinitarianism at any cost.

"Bent on Trinitarianism?" I'm bent on defending the one true God, if that's what you mean.

Your interest is not picqued; your curiosity is not aroused; you're not really searching for anything beyond what you "know", just more OF what you "know".

...Am I supposed to fire back with a sentence as foolish as yours here?
Doesn't seem like you "leaving" Trinitarianism has done much for you, only made you angrier.




I could post 50 questions that proof-texting won't touch. Like...

Exactly how do the F-S-HS all dwell in us? Scripture says each is in us. If none are either of the others, how are all three in us?


"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)

" And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. " (Joel 2:28)


If you love me, you will obey what I command.</SPAN> And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—</SPAN> the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.</SPAN> I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.</SPAN> Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.</SPAN> On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.</SPAN> Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”</SPAN> (John 14:15-21)

John 15:23 - Whoever hates me hates my Father also.


(John 17:20-26)“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,</SPAN> that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. </SPAN>I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:</SPAN> I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.</SPAN>
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.</SPAN>
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.</SPAN> I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”</SPAN>


How is it that the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father? Exactly.

Well, you're question is wrong from the start. BOTH Jesus and my Father send the Spirit to believers.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:23-24)

He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 4:8)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)


How is it that Jesus proceeded forth and came from God? Exactly.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1,14)


What's the Logos (Word)? In detail. How did the Word become flesh? Exactly.

Look at John 1:1-18

And:
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12

I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one. (1 John 2:14)






No, I know you're trying, and thank you for that. And I am getting more information out of it, albet probably not going in the direction you would want it to go.
I'd be happy if you just backed off to a neutral position equivalent to your understanding and spent more time searching.

I would say the same for you.

After 28 years as a lost Trinitarian, I've spent the last 13 years praying, fasting, and studying to have a deep experiential revelation understanding of who God is.


Well, it's a good thing I found Jesus Christ! I have a light for my ways, the Word of God. I guess you didn't, since you say you were lost.


Do you hope to know more at 21... 25... 32... 40... and beyond? Do you really think you're at some pinnacle now?


None of us are at "some pinnacle now." EVERY bit of understanding that we have is NOTHING compared to God's understanding. I'll never reach a "pinnacle." And if you're being honest, you won't either.
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;
his greatness no one can fathom. (psalm 145:3)
And it is useful, and it's wrong for me to just toss off Scripture like Philippians 2:5-11.

What I'm saying, though, is that there are many other verses that prove His deity...so I don't really need to depend on those few verses. You know what I mean?
I know what you mean, but I also know the rebuttals for what you're sure of. You'll find out sooner or later.

Alright.


The Deity of Christ is one thing. "Proving" Trinity is quite another. It's too bad that you're not as open and teachable as you are tenacious.

Ugh, that's your viewpoint.
I'm just trying to show you the one true God, and yet you keep on attacking His deity.

He doesn't need us to prove anything for Him. He proves it Himself, by being Him.



Thank you for your time

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. (1 Corinthians 3:18-19)
I've lived by this for years, challenging every belief I've ever had. I've become foolish, trusting His Word and Wisdom.

I'm sorry, you've become foolish, trusting His Words and Wisdom? You couldn't have meant that.


Perhaps you could heed it as well...


I don't heed to man, I heed to God. I bow down before Him and submit myself to Him. We can't rely on our own understanding, only on Him, who is Truth.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
#60
Quote:
Originally Posted by zackabba

Well, for my benefit, could you post a rebuttle to every verse I've posted?

If I were going to do something for your benefit, I'd give you the truth.

I have the truth, Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.


But you want Trinity, like you indicated about others in your previous post. You don't want to hear/know anything else.

So you just want to assume everything now?



You're 17,

Wow! How'd you know that? That's amazing!

and already an entrenched and bent on Trinitarianism at any cost.

"Bent on Trinitarianism?" I'm bent on defending the one true God, if that's what you mean.

Your interest is not picqued; your curiosity is not aroused; you're not really searching for anything beyond what you "know", just more OF what you "know".

...Am I supposed to fire back with a sentence as foolish as yours here?
Doesn't seem like you "leaving" Trinitarianism has done much for you, only made you angrier.




I could post 50 questions that proof-texting won't touch. Like...

Exactly how do the F-S-HS all dwell in us? Scripture says each is in us. If none are either of the others, how are all three in us?


"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)

" And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. " (Joel 2:28)


If you love me, you will obey what I command.</SPAN> And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—</SPAN> the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.</SPAN> I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.</SPAN> Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.</SPAN> On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.</SPAN> Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”</SPAN> (John 14:15-21)

John 15:23 - Whoever hates me hates my Father also.


(John 17:20-26)“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,</SPAN> that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. </SPAN>I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:</SPAN> I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.</SPAN>
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.</SPAN>
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.</SPAN> I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”</SPAN>


How is it that the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father? Exactly.

Well, you're question is wrong from the start. BOTH Jesus and my Father send the Spirit to believers.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:23-24)

He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 4:8)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)


How is it that Jesus proceeded forth and came from God? Exactly.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1,14)


What's the Logos (Word)? In detail. How did the Word become flesh? Exactly.

Look at John 1:1-18

And:
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12

I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one. (1 John 2:14)






No, I know you're trying, and thank you for that. And I am getting more information out of it, albet probably not going in the direction you would want it to go.
I'd be happy if you just backed off to a neutral position equivalent to your understanding and spent more time searching.

I would say the same for you.

After 28 years as a lost Trinitarian, I've spent the last 13 years praying, fasting, and studying to have a deep experiential revelation understanding of who God is.


Well, it's a good thing I found Jesus Christ! I have a light for my ways, the Word of God. I guess you didn't, since you say you were lost.


Do you hope to know more at 21... 25... 32... 40... and beyond? Do you really think you're at some pinnacle now?


None of us are at "some pinnacle now." EVERY bit of understanding that we have is NOTHING compared to God's understanding. I'll never reach a "pinnacle." And if you're being honest, you won't either.
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;
his greatness no one can fathom. (psalm 145:3)
And it is useful, and it's wrong for me to just toss off Scripture like Philippians 2:5-11.

What I'm saying, though, is that there are many other verses that prove His deity...so I don't really need to depend on those few verses. You know what I mean?
I know what you mean, but I also know the rebuttals for what you're sure of. You'll find out sooner or later.

Alright.


The Deity of Christ is one thing. "Proving" Trinity is quite another. It's too bad that you're not as open and teachable as you are tenacious.

Ugh, that's your viewpoint.
I'm just trying to show you the one true God, and yet you keep on attacking His deity.

He doesn't need us to prove anything for Him. He proves it Himself, by being Him.



Thank you for your time

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. (1 Corinthians 3:18-19)
I've lived by this for years, challenging every belief I've ever had. I've become foolish, trusting His Word and Wisdom.

I'm sorry, you've become foolish, trusting His Words and Wisdom? You couldn't have meant that.


Perhaps you could heed it as well...


I don't heed to man, I heed to God. I bow down before Him and submit myself to Him. We can't rely on our own understanding, only on Him, who is Truth.
In all your getting, get understanding.

I have never attacked the Deity of Christ; I adamantly affirm it.

Though you think you have answered the questions asked, you have not; yet you don't realize it. The questions included the procession of the Holy Spirit, not being sent. Your simplistic answers and loose sarcasm show both your lack of experiential knowledge and your youthful pride. Same for the Logos, etc.

I'm not angry; I just despise sarcastic milk-no-meat novices with a zeal of God but not according to knowledge, who rebuke elders and can't judge righteous judgrment because they're puffed up by fragmentary knowledge through proof-texting and the letter which killeth.

As an admitted Arianist for a season, do you think your salvation bridged the gap between your faith in both those different Gods? Do you contend that one can have seamless transferable salvific faith from one God belief to another? Is Arianism salvific?

In all your getting, get understanding. When you become a man, put away childish things. It's quite appalling to have a child feel so free to rebuke men contrary to the Word being used to do so in insolent cynicism.