Job's Heart Condition

[SaintJoeNow]

Re: Job's Heart ConditionQUOTE=JesusistheChrist;1924343]Hi, SaintJoeNow.

QUOTE=JesusistheChrist;1924343]Hi, SaintJoeNow.

I'm back, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow morning to address this (I'm going to spend some time with my children tonight). I just wanted to say one thing in advance of tomorrow's post:

Seeing how you understand that Job's three friends "condemned" him, I'm trusting that you'll accept the Biblical definition of the word "condemned" as it is used in relation to Job's three friends' comments towards Job to be the same definition that I'll use tomorrow in my attempt to show you that Job "repeatedly condemned God". IOW, we don't just get to arbitrarily assign definitions to words, but we need to let the Bible define terms for us.

Anyhow, I'll talk to you more tomorrow. I'm just going to take a quick peek at some other threads and then I'm done for the night.

Good night.[/QUOTE]

Good night. I'm not asking for definitions. I think that's silly, depending on how you would define silly. I know what I mean when I say silly, and I believe you do also. If you ask me to defne "silly", I'll have to ask if you are being silly or are you being serious? Every word I have used, I assume you know the meaning of. You have not used any words I need a dictionary or thesaurus for, and I don't think we have mentioned anything in Job so far that we need a dictionary or thesauras to try to understand the meaning of the word.

All I want to know is where in Job's own words did he condemn God, even once...and then I'll ask for one more because you said he did it repeatedly.... because after I read the book a few times and studied it out years ago, I concluded that he never condemned God, nor cursed him, nor any synonymous description that could be concurrent with the text if we paraphrased it all using concordance, thesaurus, and dictionary, all antonym and hominems compared, edited, and revised for modern evolutionary adaptations of the verbages. Now I'm seriously being funny about this request to define "condemned". I think we both know what it means well enough.

I hope you had a great time with your kids.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Computer died. Might be gone a couple days. Typing from my daughter's kindle.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

ouch. Mine is old, thought it was useless last week...figured out that if I disconnect the internet cable gefore starting the comp, then click on "work offline" when explorer opens, then connect the internet cable, then unclick the "work offline" so Explorer connects on line at the end, then my comp runs smooth. If I forget and start the comp any other way, the comp is useless. For now, I've postponed getting a new comp.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I ordered a new power cord which should arrive tomorrow night. Hopefully, it's only that.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

It's not my power cord. Ordering a new battery. Will be back eventually.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Ok, well you have plenty of time to find in Job's words where he condemned God. I say that he stopped short of comdemning God in his arguments, complaing that God was not explaining to Job why he was being tried so harshly....justfying himself in his arguments against his friends, and the next step in that line of arguing would be to condemn God...and that is what angered Elihu and Elihu rebuked Job and then God backed up Elihu and Job repented before He condemned God. Satan said job would curse God to His face, this would be the same as Job condemning God, and Job never did. God said to Satan that Job was perfect and in this Job never fell....to curse God like Satan said he would.

Please don't play "define this" or "define that" We both understand English well enough, and the meanings of everything I'm saying is clear.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Hi, SJN.

I don't need the time as I've read the book of Job many times over the last 20 something years and I don't mean to sound either rude or antagonistic, but I literally had to stop and pray for you as I was going through the book of Job again just a few days ago. IOW, seeing how Job REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD, even as I initially said that he did, and seeing how your own testimony is that you've read the book of Job many times and you cannot find even a single instance where Job condemned God, there's obviously something terribly wrong at your end. I'm on a borrowed laptop that doesn't work too well, but I'm going to begin to document for you that Job did indeed

REPEATEDLY CONDEMN GOD and then I'll continue

this conversation with you at a later time when I can hopefully get my own laptop to start working again.

Job chapter 1

[20] Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
[22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Again:

Job chapter 2

[9] Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
[10] But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

When Job's calamities befell him, INITIALLY he did not charge God foolishly nor sin with his lips. However, shortly thereafter, things changed DRASTICALLY and Job REPEATEDLY CHARGED GOD FOOLISHLY AND SINNED WITH HIS LIPS. For starters, Job cursed the very day in which he was born and lamented that he had even been given life and that he wasn't miscarried:

Job chapter 3

[1] After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
[2] And Job spake, and said,
[3] Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.
[4] Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
[5] Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
[6] As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.
[7] Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.
[8] Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.
[9] Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:
[10] Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.
[11] Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
[12] Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
[13] For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
[14] With kings and counsellers of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
[15] Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
[16] Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
[17] There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
[18] There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
[19] The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
[20] Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
[21] Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
[22] Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?
[23] Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?
[24] For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.
[25] For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
[26] I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

Job not only cursed the day in which he was born, a day which God created, but, again, he lamented that God had even given him life. Was this not a slap in God's face? Has not the potter power over the clay? Ought not Job who had been living "the blessed and prosperous life" prior to this still have ascribed majesty and honor unto God in the midst of his ordeal? IOW, if he truly believed that "the LORD gives and the LORD takes away" and if he truly meant what he had said earlier about coming into this world naked and not being able to take anything out of this world with him and that we're to receive evil from the LORD as well as good, then would he have been cursing the very day in which God gave him life? Job began to CONDEMN GOD here and especially when he said:

"Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?" (Job 3:23)

By saying that his "way is hid", Job was accusing God of not answering him in the midst of his ordeal, but JOB'S OWN LATER TESTIMONY, as well as the testimony of Elihu, will show that such simply was NOT the case. IOW, God had been speaking to Job, but instead of repenting of that which God had been showing him, Job "ADDED REBELLION unto his sin", even as Elihu told him, BY REPEATEDLY CONDEMNING GOD AND REPEATEDLY JUSTIFYING HIMSELF INSTEAD. In a series of posts, I'll highlight in GREEN where Job repeatedly justified himself and also highlight in RED where Job REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD. Again, Job began to speak foolishly and to sin with his lips here when he not only cursed the day in which he was born and his very life, thereby railing against the very God Who had given him life, but also by saying that his "way was hid" or that God wouldn't show him the reason behind his ordeal and by stating that "God had hedged him in" or that God had UNJUSTIFIABLY surrounded him with calamities.

I'm using a borrowed laptop which randomly erases things and has other issues too, so I need to put extra time and effort into any posts that I make, so I'm not going to get into any sort of "back and forth" with you until I can get my own laptop up and working again. For now, I'm just going to post Job's own words and highlight in GREEN where he repeatedly justified himself and highlight in RED where he REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD. I'm going to do the same over a series of posts because of the aforementioned computer problems

that I'm presently dealing with, so please be patient and allow me much more time to post than normal. Thanks.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Job chapter 6

[1] But Job answered and said,
[2] Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances

together!
[3] For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.
[4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
[5] Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
[6] Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
[7] The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
[8] Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
[9] Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
[10] Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
[11] What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?
[12] Is my strength the strength of stones? or is my flesh of brass?
[13] Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?
[14] To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.
[15] My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
[16] Which are blackish by reason of the ice, and wherein the snow is hid:
[17] What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
[18] The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
[19] The troops of Tema looked, the companies of Sheba waited for them.
[20] They were confounded because they had hoped; they came thither, and were ashamed.
[21] For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down, and are afraid.
[22] Did I say, Bring unto me? or, Give a reward

for me of your substance?
[23] Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
[24] Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
[25] How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
[26] Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
[27] Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
[28] Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
[29] Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
[30] Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Job chapter 7

[1] Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
[2] As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward

of his work:
[3] So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.
[4] When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day.
[5] My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
[6] My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.
[7] O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
[8] The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
[9] As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
[10] He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
[11] Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
[12] Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
[13] When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
[14] Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
[15] So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
[16] I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
[17] What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
[18] And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
[19] How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
[20] I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
[21] And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Some of Job

's self-justifications:

"for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One" (Job 6:10)

"Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?" (Job 6:13)

"Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred." (Job 6:24)

"my righteousness is in it. Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?" (Job 6:29-30)

Throughout Job

's ordeal, even though he'll make "token" mention of his transgression or sin, Job maintains that he is righteous and that what is befalling him is unjust. Yes, he not only maintains that his whole ordeal is unjust, but he REPEATEDLY ACCUSES GOD OF INJUSTICE. Here are a few examples of the same:

"For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me." (Job 6:4)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, is it right to accuse God of shooting poisonous arrows into us to drink up our spirits and to terrify us because He's set Himself in array or set Himself in battle against us?

Is this your idea of Job somehow "blessing God" or does this sound more like "cursing God" to you?

Job chapter 6

[8] Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
[9] Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
[10] Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
[11] What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job said that he was requesting that God would destroy him, cut him off and not spare and when Job complained that his life was hopeless and that he didn't want to prolong his life, was he somehow "blessing God" or does this sound more like that Job was hearkening unto the advice of his wife who told him to "curse God and die" to you?

"ye see my casting down" (Job 6:21)

"Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?" (Job 6:23)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job said that God his ENEMY had cast him down, was Job somehow "blessing God" or was he CURSING OR CONDEMNING HIM instead?

"So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me." (Job 7:3)

"My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope." (Job 7:6)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job accused God of appointing months of vanity and wearisome nights unto him as well as days without hope, was he somehow "blessing God" or was he instead CURSING OR CONDEMNING GOD?

You'd do yourself a great favor to pay extra close attention to what follows:

Job chapter 7

[12] Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
[13] When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
[14] Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
[15] So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
[16] I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
[17] What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
[18] And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
[19] How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
[20] I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
[21] And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job told God to depart from him and to leave him alone and to stop watching over him like a "whale watcher", was he somehow "blessing God" or was he rather CURSING OR CONDEMNING HIM?

Listen, friend...

JOB FLAT OUT ADMITTED THAT EVEN WHEN HE WAS SLEEPING THAT GOD SCARED HIM WITH DREAMS AND TERRIFIED HIM WITH VISIONS (vss. 13-14) AND THIS BRINGS US RIGHT BACK TO THE WORDS OF ELIHU WHO SAID:

Job chapter 33

[14] For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
[16] Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
[17] That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
[18] He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
[19] He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
[20] So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
[21] His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
[22] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
[24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
[25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
[26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
[27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
[28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
[29] Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,

When, ACCORDING TO JOB'S OWN TESTIMONY, God was trying to reach him through dreams and visions of the night, what was Job's response to the same? Did Job repent and allow God to HIDE PRIDE FROM HIM? Of course, Job did not, but instead he "ADDED REBELLION unto his sin" by telling God that he LOATHED (Job 7:16) such reproof and that HIS SOUL CHOSE STRANGLING AND DEATH as opposed to a life of such correction from God (Job 7:15). Oh, Job gave one of his "token" mentions of his sin in Job 7:20-21, but his later comments throughout the book clearly indicate that he found no actual sin in himself and he also flat out told God here that He wouldn't pardon his transgression anyway. Again, tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, does any of this sound the least bit like Job somehow "blessing God" or does it sound like Job was CURSING OR CONDEMNING GOD instead?

You need to reread the book, friend, as Job's REPEATED CONDEMNATIONS OF GOD ONLY GET WORSE AS THE ACCOUNT PROGRESSES.

Well, I'm struggling greatly with this computer which keeps erasing my work and bouncing me off of this page, so this might very well be my last post here until I can get my own laptop fixed

. Again, you'd be well advised to reread the book, friend, as would several others here who have posted on this thread.

 

[longtrekker]

Hey JITC

Glad u found your way back on - anywho Joe got banned last night so i doubt he'll be able to respond.

I do hope he'll still be able to read your missive tho - i'm going to give it a looksee later today.

 

[Sophia]

Job chapter 6

[1] But Job answered and said,
[2] Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances

together!
[3] For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.
[4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
[5] Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
[6] Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
[7] The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
[8] Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
[9] Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
[10] Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
[11] What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?
[12] Is my strength the strength of stones? or is my flesh of brass?
[13] Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?
[14] To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.
[15] My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
[16] Which are blackish by reason of the ice, and wherein the snow is hid:
[17] What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
[18] The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
[19] The troops of Tema looked, the companies of Sheba waited for them.
[20] They were confounded because they had hoped; they came thither, and were ashamed.
[21] For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down, and are afraid.
[22] Did I say, Bring unto me? or, Give a reward

for me of your substance?
[23] Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
[24] Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
[25] How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
[26] Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
[27] Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
[28] Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
[29] Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
[30] Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Job chapter 7

[1] Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
[2] As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward

of his work:
[3] So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.
[4] When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day.
[5] My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
[6] My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.
[7] O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
[8] The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
[9] As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
[10] He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
[11] Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
[12] Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
[13] When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
[14] Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
[15] So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
[16] I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
[17] What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
[18] And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
[19] How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
[20] I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
[21] And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Some of Job

's self-justifications:

"for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One" (Job 6:10)

"Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?" (Job 6:13)

"Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred." (Job 6:24)

"my righteousness is in it. Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?" (Job 6:29-30)

Throughout Job

's ordeal, even though he'll make "token" mention of his transgression or sin, Job maintains that he is righteous and that what is befalling him is unjust. Yes, he not only maintains that his whole ordeal is unjust, but he REPEATEDLY ACCUSES GOD OF INJUSTICE. Here are a few examples of the same:

"For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me." (Job 6:4)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, is it right to accuse God of shooting poisonous arrows into us to drink up our spirits and to terrify us because He's set Himself in array or set Himself in battle against us?

Is this your idea of Job somehow "blessing God" or does this sound more like "cursing God" to you?

Job chapter 6

[8] Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
[9] Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
[10] Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
[11] What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job said that he was requesting that God would destroy him, cut him off and not spare and when Job complained that his life was hopeless and that he didn't want to prolong his life, was he somehow "blessing God" or does this sound more like that Job was hearkening unto the advice of his wife who told him to "curse God and die" to you?

"ye see my casting down" (Job 6:21)

"Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?" (Job 6:23)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job said that God his ENEMY had cast him down, was Job somehow "blessing God" or was he CURSING OR CONDEMNING HIM instead?

"So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me." (Job 7:3)

"My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope." (Job 7:6)

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job accused God of appointing months of vanity and wearisome nights unto him as well as days without hope, was he somehow "blessing God" or was he instead CURSING OR CONDEMNING GOD?

You'd do yourself a great favor to pay extra close attention to what follows:

Job chapter 7

[12] Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
[13] When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
[14] Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
[15] So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
[16] I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
[17] What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
[18] And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
[19] How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
[20] I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
[21] And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, when Job told God to depart from him and to leave him alone and to stop watching over him like a "whale watcher", was he somehow "blessing God" or was he rather CURSING OR CONDEMNING HIM?

Listen, friend...

JOB FLAT OUT ADMITTED THAT EVEN WHEN HE WAS SLEEPING THAT GOD SCARED HIM WITH DREAMS AND TERRIFIED HIM WITH VISIONS (vss. 13-14) AND THIS BRINGS US RIGHT BACK TO THE WORDS OF ELIHU WHO SAID:

Job chapter 33

[14] For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
[16] Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
[17] That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
[18] He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
[19] He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
[20] So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
[21] His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
[22] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
[24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
[25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
[26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
[27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
[28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
[29] Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,

When, ACCORDING TO JOB'S OWN TESTIMONY, God was trying to reach him through dreams and visions of the night, what was Job's response to the same? Did Job repent and allow God to HIDE PRIDE FROM HIM? Of course, Job did not, but instead he "ADDED REBELLION unto his sin" by telling God that he LOATHED (Job 7:16) such reproof and that HIS SOUL CHOSE STRANGLING AND DEATH as opposed to a life of such correction from God (Job 7:15). Oh, Job gave one of his "token" mentions of his sin in Job 7:20-21, but his later comments throughout the book clearly indicate that he found no actual sin in himself and he also flat out told God here that He wouldn't pardon his transgression anyway. Again, tell me/us, SaintJoeNow, does any of this sound the least bit like Job somehow "blessing God" or does it sound like Job was CURSING OR CONDEMNING GOD instead?

You need to reread the book, friend, as Job's REPEATED CONDEMNATIONS OF GOD ONLY GET WORSE AS THE ACCOUNT PROGRESSES.

Well, I'm struggling greatly with this computer which keeps erasing my work and bouncing me off of this page, so this might very well be my last post here until I can get my own laptop fixed

. Again, you'd be well advised to reread the book, friend, as would several others here who have posted on this thread.

Satan did not win the second bet. Job did not curse God. You go too far by saying he did.

He did make accusation against God as being unfair in His Favor and Justice. That is pride in the form of rebellion, but not cursing or condemning God.
I think you need to focus on how God responds to Job's accusations, and the exact way that God corrects Job. What sin does God rebuke Job for, and what defense does God offer for what Job perceived as unfair justice?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Satan did not win the second bet. Job did not curse God. You go too far by saying he did.

He did make accusation against God as being unfair in His Favor and Justice. That is pride in the form of rebellion, but not cursing or condemning God.
I think you need to focus on how God responds to Job's accusations, and the exact way that God corrects Job. What sin does God rebuke Job for, and what defense does God offer for what Job perceived as unfair justice?

I won't have a reliable means by which to continue this conversation until about another week from now when I receive a new battery in the mail. I'll be back then.

 

[Sophia]

I won't have a reliable means by which to continue this conversation until about another week from now when I receive a new battery in the mail. I'll be back then.

Totally understandable. I'll be rereading it in the meantime to check myself in the Word.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I'll endure this messed up computer again just to get a little bit further into Job's words:

Job chapter 9

[1] Then Job answered and said,
[2] I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
[3] If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
[4] He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
[5] Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
[6] Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
[7] Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
[8] Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
[9] Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
[10] Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
[11] Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
[12] Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
[13] If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
[14] How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
[15] Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
[16] If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
[17] For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
[18] He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
[19] If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
[20] If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
[21] Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
[22] This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
[23] If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
[24] The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
[25] Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away, they see no good.
[26] They are passed away as the swift ships: as the eagle that hasteth to the prey.
[27] If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and comfort myself:
[28] I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.
[29] If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain?
[30] If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
[31] Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
[32] For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
[33] Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
[34] Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
[35] Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job chapter 10

[1] My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
[2] I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
[3] Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
[4] Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
[5] Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,
[6] That thou inquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?
[7] Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.
[8] Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.
[9] Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?
[10] Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?
[11] Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
[12] Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.
[13] And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.
[14] If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
[15] If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;
[16] For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.
[17] Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.
[18] Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
[19] I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
[20] Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
[21] Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
[22] A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

Again, some of Job's self-justifications:

"and multiplieth my wounds without cause" (Job 9:17)

"Thou knowest that I am not wicked" (Job 10:7)

Again, Job did make some "token" mentions of sin, but he ultimately believed himself to be innocent and he therefore continued to unjustly condemn God.

Tell me/us, those of you who find no fault in Job's words against God, is it proper to say the following types of things to a Holy and Righteous God:

"He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness." (Job 9:18)

"This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent." (Job 9:22-23)

???

Does the One Who gives us breath hinder us from taking breath?

Does the One Who instructs us to remove all roots of bitterness fill us with bitterness?

Does the One Who instructs us to be perfect as He is perfect destroy the perfect?

Does the One who promises to be our very present help in the times of trial laugh at the trial of the innocent?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you're as wicked as Job was prior to his own time of repentance before God and you need to repent yourselves.

Job continued his verbal assault against God and His Character:

"If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch" (Job 9:30-31)

"Thou huntest me as a fierce lion" (Job 10:16)

Does the One Who instructs us to touch not the unclean thing plunge us into a ditch when we obey Him in regard to the same?

Does the One Who warns us of our adversary, the devil, who seeks to devour us a roaring lion hunt us as a fierce lion Himself?

Is it proper to say the following to the Lord God Almighty:

"cease then, and let me alone" (Job 10:20)

???

Again, if you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you're as wicked as Job was before his time of repentance before God. Yes, you need to repent yourselves lest God brings upon you something similar to that which he brought upon Job.

Anyhow, Job's "token" mentions of sin will be seen to be just that before his words against God are finished and Elihu's response to Job will make plenty of sense when Job's REPEATED CONDEMNATIONS OF GOD are seen to be exactly what they were up until the time that he repented of the same.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Hey JITC

Glad u found your way back on - anywho Joe got banned last night so i doubt he'll be able to respond.

I do hope he'll still be able to read your missive tho - i'm going to give it a looksee later today.

Why was he banned?