John 3:3

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Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
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#1
The word expresses everyone must be water baptized and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

I believe the thing people miss is the fact that Jesus said to be reborn of water and Spirit. Being born does not entail the creation process per se. Birth refers to coming forth after one has been created. Example: God creates each of us in our mother's womb. The birthing process is the coming forth out of the water one has been immersed in. Life after exiting the waters of the womb will not be maintained if the created baby does not receive the infiltration of surrounding air.

God's natural birth process is a beautiful picture of the spiritual rebirth process that God designed and is seen in His word. Both the natural and spiritual birth processes require water and Spirit. To understand and partake of what God has provided in no way takes away from Him as our savior.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (come back out of the womb)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:4-7
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,743
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#2
In regards to John 3:5, some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

Also, living water should be considered in John 3:5. Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as "baptism," then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#3
In regards to John 3:5, some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

Also, living water should be considered in John 3:5. Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as "baptism," then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.
The word states man can see spiritual truths through observing how God created the natural. Romans 1:20

You and I are just not in agreement as to what the bible states.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#4
The word states man can see spiritual truths through observing how God created the natural. Romans 1:20

You and I are just not in agreement as to what the bible states.
Excuse me wansvic, but what does Romans 1:20 have to do with understanding John 3:5? If you disagree with mailmandan then by all means explain why by exegeting the verse and show "WHY" you disagree? Anybody can say "I disagree" but prove why you disagree? Your in the big leagues now so one has to give reasons for faith as to what they believe and why they believe it. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,599
4,073
113
#5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Here "water" is a metaphor for the Word of God, more precisely the Gospel. The power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit join together to produce the New Birth.

There is no such thing as baptismal regeneration (which you are promoting).
 
Feb 8, 2019
314
62
28
#6
Ive been taught that "born of water" here is symbolic of being washed clean of your sins.
You are "born of water" washed clean, and then "born of Spirit", God puts in you his Spirit.
See Ezekiel 36:22-27
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,599
4,073
113
#7
Ive been taught that "born of water" here is symbolic of being washed clean of your sins.
See Ezekiel 36:22-27
Water is also a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. So there is a "washing of regeneration" by the Holy Ghost.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:5-7)

Also we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5,6)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,743
8,159
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#8
Here "water" is a metaphor for the Word of God, more precisely the Gospel. The power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit join together to produce the New Birth.

There is no such thing as baptismal regeneration (which you are promoting).
In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. In Ephesians 5:26, we read - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. in 1 Peter 1:23, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. The Holy Spirit is the instrument of both cleansing and the birth of the divine nature in those who are born again. Water intensifies and magnifies Spirit by means of figurative ways God's Holy Spirit is shown working as a means of God's life giving word, of regeneration and of cleansing.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#9
Excuse me wansvic, but what does Romans 1:20 have to do with understanding John 3:5? If you disagree with mailmandan then by all means explain why by exegeting the verse and show "WHY" you disagree? Anybody can say "I disagree" but prove why you disagree? Your in the big leagues now so one has to give reasons for faith as to what they believe and why they believe it. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The discussion was regarding the natural and spiritual birth parallels. Both were designed by God and point to one another.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#10
Here "water" is a metaphor for the Word of God, more precisely the Gospel. The power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit join together to produce the New Birth.

There is no such thing as baptismal regeneration (which you are promoting).
So water is a metaphor and spirit is literal? I would disagree.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#11
Water is also a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. So there is a "washing of regeneration" by the Holy Ghost.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:5-7)

Also we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5,6)
Water and Holy Ghost baptism can be seen in the scriptures you quote. By His grace God provided the sacrifice of Jesus to pay the penalty for mankind's sin. God also designed the rebirth experience and commanded it be followed. The necessity to submit to water baptism and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost is consistent in scripture.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#12
In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. In Ephesians 5:26, we read - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. in 1 Peter 1:23, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. The Holy Spirit is the instrument of both cleansing and the birth of the divine nature in those who are born again. Water intensifies and magnifies Spirit by means of figurative ways God's Holy Spirit is shown working as a means of God's life giving word, of regeneration and of cleansing.
The washing of water by the word is consistent with the rebirth experience of water and Holy Ghost baptism. Upon seeing the need for both in the WORD one steps out in faith and complies with God's mandate.

The washing of water by the word continues after the rebirth experience as well. The process replaces error with truth expressed in God's word throughout one's lifetime.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
538
286
63
#13
I believe the Bible teaches we were designed, by God as a creature with a body, soul and spirit.
Jn. 4-24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
If we are spiritually dead, then we have no personal relationship with God.
This is the part of that each needs regenerated, reborn to be truely alive as we were intended. This rebirth of our spirit is what Nicodemus was lacking.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,591
12,734
113
#14
John 3 has nothing to do with water baptism.

If any one needs proof. It is in jesus words.

In answer to Nicodemus question about how one is born again, Jesus gave the following answer.

John 3:
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answer!

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice

1. He never once said anythign about having to be baptised
2. He used an OT passage, where people looked up in faith to the serpant and in it they were saved. Saying Jesus is the serpant, So whoever in faith LOOKS UP TO HIM, will be saved
3. He said belief or true faith ALONE is what saves and whoever has done this, wIll NEVER DIE

4. HE said clearly, Whoever does not believe is in the continued state of condemnation. (Once again, NO mention of not being baptised)

People trying to use this passage to support their salvation by immersion in PHYSICAL water by the work of man, twist it and make a doctrine that is not only not mention, but not even HINTED at in this passage.
 
F

Footprint

Guest
#16
In regards to John 3:5, some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.
Not likely, this would be a redundant statement since Nicodemus was already born of a mother's womb, as are all of us.



Also, living water should be considered in John 3:5. Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as "baptism," then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Again not likely, this would be the equivalent of saying...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of living water (Spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


We know in the Born Again Doctrine the water is baptism, of which Wansvic explains in great and clear detail.

Remember, the Crowed is Wrong! ...

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thank you.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#18
Not likely, this would be a redundant statement since Nicodemus was already born of a mother's womb, as are all of us.






Again not likely, this would be the equivalent of saying...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of living water (Spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


We know in the Born Again Doctrine the water is baptism, of which Wansvic explains in great and clear detail.

Remember, the Crowed is Wrong! ...

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thank you.
Not likely, this would be a redundant statement since Nicodemus was already born of a mother's womb, as are all of us.






Again not likely, this would be the equivalent of saying...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of living water (Spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


We know in the Born Again Doctrine the water is baptism, of which Wansvic explains in great and clear detail.

Remember, the Crowed is Wrong! ...

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thank you.
Not likely, this would be a redundant statement since Nicodemus was already born of a mother's womb, as are all of us.






Again not likely, this would be the equivalent of saying...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of living water (Spirit) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


We know in the Born Again Doctrine the water is baptism, of which Wansvic explains in great and clear detail.

Remember, the Crowed is Wrong! ...

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thank you.
Excuse me but I'm a little confused. I thought that water baptism is commanded "AFTER" one is saved, not a part of doing it to get saved, which btw is a work. By getting water baptised you identify yourself with Jesus Christ as being one of His followers.

This is also why Matthew 28:19 says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (the disciples) in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit." In other words, you get water baptized after your a disciple, not to become a disciple.

So, this means that you footprint and wansvic are wrong and the crowd is Biblically right. Btw, your also mis-applying Matthew 7:13,14 as it applies to this issue. One more thing, the thief on the cross was not water baptized and Jesus told him he will be in Paradise with Jesus. What was it that saved the thief? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,372
987
113
#19
The word expresses everyone must be water baptized and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

I believe the thing people miss is the fact that Jesus said to be reborn of water and Spirit. Being born does not entail the creation process per se. Birth refers to coming forth after one has been created. Example: God creates each of us in our mother's womb. The birthing process is the coming forth out of the water one has been immersed in. Life after exiting the waters of the womb will not be maintained if the created baby does not receive the infiltration of surrounding air.

God's natural birth process is a beautiful picture of the spiritual rebirth process that God designed and is seen in His word. Both the natural and spiritual birth processes require water and Spirit. To understand and partake of what God has provided in no way takes away from Him as our savior.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (come back out of the womb)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:4-7
John 4:23-24
King James Version

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
+++
How does a person worship GOD by doing physical things?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,140
571
113
#20
Excuse me but I'm a little confused. I thought that water baptism is commanded "AFTER" one is saved, not a part of doing it to get saved, which btw is a work. By getting water baptised you identify yourself with Jesus Christ as being one of His followers.

This is also why Matthew 28:19 says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (the disciples) in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit." In other words, you get water baptized after your a disciple, not to become a disciple.

So, this means that you footprint and wansvic are wrong and the crowd is Biblically right. Btw, your also mis-applying Matthew 7:13,14 as it applies to this issue. One more thing, the thief on the cross was not water baptized and Jesus told him he will be in Paradise with Jesus. What was it that saved the thief? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
To satisfy these 2 guys, you need to address Mark 16:16 instead.