Judas

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Jul 7, 2005
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#1
Was Judas created with the sole porpose of betraying Jesus? Ive wondered this many times...of course God knew he *Judas* would , someone had to , so was that why Judas was even born?
 
S

shad

Guest
#2
The scriptures tell us that Judas, as the son of perdition, betrayed the Lord that the scriptures might be fulfilled / Jn 17:12. His life and betrayal fulfilled a prophesy that was made by David in Ps 41:9, and fulfilled in Jn 13:21-27, Mk 14:10. We know that the scriptures must be fulfilled / Mt 25:54, Mk 14:49, Lk 24:44.

The question that begs an answer is this, was it possible for Judas to have believed upon the Lord and been truly converted as the other disciples? All things are possible unto those believe / Mk 9:23. We know from the scriptures that God is not willing that any should perish / 2Pt 3:9.

Then you have some that get into predestination that some were appointed to hell and Judas is pointed to as an example and Jude 1:4 concerning those who were ordained to this condemnation as ungodly men. Jesus said this in Mk 14:21, ...but woe unto that man unto whom the son of man is betrayed, it would have been better for that man if he had never been born.

After all this we have to come to our own conclusions and convictions based upon the scriptures. Do we apply our conclusions to others, like a bad son, or a wicked ruler, or a serial killer or some reprobate that has no conscience or even a spouse that is abusive and out of control or devious?

I think it is safe to say what the scriptures have testified concerning Judas, the prophecy he fulfilled and that it would have been better that he had never been born and leave it at that.
 
M

Mal316

Guest
#3
And what if that is the reason Judas was born?
 
B

Belgian_Pilot

Guest
#4
Tough subject. It's the classic 'free mind' vs 'Gods plan' problem.

I think Judas fits in Gods mighty plan. At the same time, God gave Judas a free mind: the ability to make his own choice.

I don't know how that can be put together. I'm sure it is because my human brains are too small :D
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#5
We people are sinful, so I think it was easy for the Lord to predict that someone would sell him out. It worked into the Lord’s plan that he would die on the cross and save us from our sins, right?
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#6
We could be talking about any of the disciple right now - Judas just happens to be the one who betrayed Him
 

Gabriel777

Senior Member
Sep 15, 2009
294
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#7
God knows everything. Just like He knew we were gonna sin and grieve Him even before He created us. God created Judas knowing that he was gonna betray His Son, but good or bad it's all used for His glory.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#8
I don't think so. If Jesus was here today, someone would still play the Judas.
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#9
Was Judas created with the sole porpose of betraying Jesus? Ive wondered this many times...of course God knew he *Judas* would , someone had to , so was that why Judas was even born?
I think that to answer this question, we need to examine what is known of Judas. There are many diverse views of Judas but I am going to stick to the scriptures. There are two passages in the book of John that give insight into the nature of Judas; John 6:70-71 and John 12:4-6.

John 6:70-71

"70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)"

John 12:4-6
"4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it."
There is also another passage in John which tells us that Jesus knew what Judas was before Judas betrayed Him.

John 13:10-11
"10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean."
It was in the nature of Judas to be a thief. He went to the Chief Priests and asked them "What will you give me if I give Jesu to you?" Staying true to his nature, he did it for money. Judas never recognized Jesus as Lord but only addressed Him as Rabbi.
Was he created to sin? I believe He was easily swayed by greed and this gave Satan opportunity to use him for his purpose.
Read the scriptures and make your own decision.

 
Jan 8, 2009
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#10
I don't think prophecy is predestining the future. Prophecy is predicting the future. Because of that for myself I don't see , "he had to come to fulfill the prophecies" as a good enough answer. Prophecies can change. God can change His mind. In that sense, it would be perfectly ok for Judas not to have come. The prophecy would be void then, and that's perfectly OK. But His betrayal gives validity to the prophets and confirmation that Christ is who He says He is. I don't see Judas as a scapegoat. But as one of the many who were called but not chosen. He had a brain and a will, he chose to deny Christ. He chose to indulge in thievery even in Christ's presence and everyone knew it. No one really needed to betray Christ - Christ was hated by many and could easily have just walked into a synagogue and surrendered himself to the authorities. But why really was he betrayed? If we look at who Judas was he was the sort of person carried a weapon with him to assassinate traitors, that's what his surname Iscariot implies. He was also a Judean and these often felt superior to those from Galilee. Zealots also had misunderstanding of bible prophecy about Christ's coming. He thought Christ was going to wage war against the Romans. Eventually Judas was convinced that Jesus was a false messiah , because Christ did not come with an army or to overthrow the ruling authorities at the time as he had hoped. This led Judas to agree to betray Christ to the ruling authorities.
 
D

Demosthenes

Guest
#11
we read the book Ender's game in my english class, and my teacher is making us write a persuasive essay on wether killing is justified or not. I would like to get the opinions of fellow christians to use in this debate. thanks
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#12
Why is this so difficult to understand? God sees tomorrow from yesterday. He saw Judas doing what he did, before the creation of the world. Does this mean that He made Judas commit his treachery? No! God is not evil, and He will not be tempted with evil. Because He sees the end from the beginning does not mean that He cause the evil in the world. That is the path to condemnation. Just as He saw us in Jesus before the beginning, (He prepared works in Jesus that we should walk in them, before the beginning of the world. We are those that He foreknew, because He is in the end just as He is in the beginning.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#14
There is a theory, that Jesus said to a reluctant Judas, "hey buddy, I need you to betray me, so that the prophecies will be fulfilled, can you please do it?". and Judas reluctantly replies... "ok Jesus because I love you I'll obey you".

But this idea comes from the gnostic gospels.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#15
There is a theory, that Jesus said to a reluctant Judas, "hey buddy, I need you to betray me, so that the prophecies will be fulfilled, can you please do it?". and Judas reluctantly replies... "ok Jesus because I love you I'll obey you".

But this idea comes from the gnostic gospels.

I won't write what I think about that theory.

Blessing brother,
Hah, I got it right!
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#16
There is a theory, that Jesus said to a reluctant Judas, "hey buddy, I need you to betray me, so that the prophecies will be fulfilled, can you please do it?". and Judas reluctantly replies... "ok Jesus because I love you I'll obey you".

But this idea comes from the gnostic gospels.
Are we using the Bible for the basis of our studies or are you using any and every source to back up your pseudo-intellectual meanderings. Look to the scriptures and quit letting your mind get in your way!

If you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired and that God's word is truth; then you cannot pick and choose which scripture to believe. To do so invalidates all of scripture. It's all or nothing!
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
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#17
Just pointing out that the view that Judas was doing God's mission and will, is similar to the gnostics saying that Jesus cut a deal with Judas to portray him. And yes, pseudo-intellectural meanderings is better than being ignorant.
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#18
I don't think prophecy is predestining the future. Prophecy is predicting the future. Because of that for myself I don't see , "he had to come to fulfill the prophecies" as a good enough answer. Prophecies can change. God can change His mind. In that sense, it would be perfectly ok for Judas not to have come. The prophecy would be void then, and that's perfectly OK. But His betrayal gives validity to the prophets and confirmation that Christ is who He says He is. I don't see Judas as a scapegoat. But as one of the many who were called but not chosen. He had a brain and a will, he chose to deny Christ. He chose to indulge in thievery even in Christ's presence and everyone knew it. No one really needed to betray Christ - Christ was hated by many and could easily have just walked into a synagogue and surrendered himself to the authorities. But why really was he betrayed? If we look at who Judas was he was the sort of person carried a weapon with him to assassinate traitors, that's what his surname Iscariot implies. He was also a Judean and these often felt superior to those from Galilee. Zealots also had misunderstanding of bible prophecy about Christ's coming. He thought Christ was going to wage war against the Romans. Eventually Judas was convinced that Jesus was a false messiah , because Christ did not come with an army or to overthrow the ruling authorities at the time as he had hoped. This led Judas to agree to betray Christ to the ruling authorities.
Pleas show me in scripture where God has changed his mind.! You are dealing with foundational biblical truths here. If You cannot provide scriptural references to back up your theories then you should not post them.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#19
OK. One example is Jonah, and God changing his mind about destroying Ninevah. Here is a man who God sent to warn , with a prophetic message that he would destroy their city, only to repent and decide not to. There is also conditional prophecy. God made promises with conditions in the old testament. Certain things would come to pass or occur if this or that occurred. The fact is, prophecy is foretelling, not predestination. Prophecy can change, by God changing His mind. Does God change his mind? You bet He does. In the new testament, Paul was warned by a prophet about going to a certain place, Paul rejected it and went anyway, saying he was willing to die for Christ. We can see that prophecy is not absolute, nor is prophecy unavoidable.
 
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L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#20
[quote=MahogonySnail;248624]OK. One example is Jonah, and God changing his mind about destroying Ninevah. Here is a man who God sent to warn , with a prophetic message that he would destroy their city, only to repent and decide not to. There is also conditional prophecy. God made promises with conditions in the old testament. Certain things would come to pass or occur if this or that occurred. The fact is, prophecy is foretelling, not predestination. Prophecy can change, by God changing His mind. Does God change his mind? You bet He does. In the new testament, Paul was warned by a prophet about going to a certain place, Paul rejected it and went anyway, saying he was willing to die for Christ. We can see that prophecy is not absolute, nor is prophecy unavoidable.[/quote]

I knew you would use Ninevah as an example. If you are a student of history, then check out what happened to Ninevah in 612 B.C. The city was razed to the ground by the Medes. The people were either massacred or deported. God did not change his mind. He knew that Ninevah's repentence would not last so he just delayed His judgement for about 150 years, a mere second to God. Care to try again?