Just another OSAS thread

[RickyZ]

A free gift, is a free gift. If someone knocks on your door and you open it and standing in front of you is a man who is holding out a gold bar for you to take and says... "Here, Id like to give this gold bar to you as a gift. You owe me nothing for it, it is free. Please take it, I have plenty more." Then you open your hand and receive the gold bar and close the door. When your wife comes home you excitedly explain to her the nice man who showed up at your door and gave you free gold bar to do with as you wish!!" Your wife asks, "What? He gave it to you…free? You didn't have to pay him or do anything for it?" Of course you would answer "Nope, he just handed it to me as a gift!"

Of course you had to get up, walk to the door, open the door, and open up your hand to receive the gold bar. But you would spend the rest of your life telling people about the nice man who gave you a gold bar absolutely free, and you had to do NOTHING for it. Don't confuse "our receiving" with "our works".

Do you take everything from everyone who comes to your door? Does everyone accept God's free gift offered at their door? No, many more don't than do.

And yes, exactly, many confuse receiving with works. That is the whole point of this thread, to point out that for both the OS and the AS works are irrelevant. Don't getcha in, don't kick you out. What gets you in is belief, which we determined at the start was not a work. So now the issue is, is unbelief a work, and can unbelief in the form of apostasy kick you out?

 

[Jason0047]

The Bible talks about evil works (James 3:16). In other words, one is going to do some kind of work or fruit within their life regardless (Unless they are in a coma or something). Fruit or work is just evidence of the master that one is yielding to. If one has the fruit of sin and or evil works in their life, then they are yielding to the devil. If one has the fruits of the Spirit, like love, joy, peace, etc. then that is evidence that God is living within them and they are being directed by God. It's not that works saves a person in and of itself but they are merely the fruit or evidence of whom they are yielding to (Within their life). For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (And vise versa).

 

[RickyZ]

Precisely. Choose ye this day... and like we established earlier one's works are definitely evidence of whom ye are choosing. But we've also come to the conclusion that works are irrelevant in either case as it comes to salvation. Righteousness comes from belief, which we saw was not an act of works. So the question on the AS side of the issue is, is unbelief an act of works (since belief is not an act of works I would think not), and does unbelief in the form of apostasy cancel your ticket?

The OSAS debate always settles on the issue of whether works can save or unsave you.

What the debate really needs to ask is whether belief/unbelief (which are not works) can save or unsave you?

 

[RickyZ]

2 Timothy 2:

Works:

13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot disown himself.

Perseverance

12a if we endure, we will also reign with Him.

Apostasy

12b If we disown Him, He will also disown us

 

[84Niner]

Do you take everything from everyone who comes to your door? Does everyone accept God's free gift offered at their door? No, many more don't than do.

And yes, exactly, many confuse receiving with works. That is the whole point of this thread, to point out that for both the OS and the AS works are irrelevant. Don't getcha in, don't kick you out. What gets you in is belief, which we determined at the start was not a work. So now the issue is, is unbelief a work, and can unbelief in the form of apostasy kick you out?

My illustration of someone coming to the door offering a free gift was never meant to imply that everyone who is offered a free gift (from God in this case) receives it. That was not the point of the thread or my response, and I'm not sure why anyone would take it that way. My illustration was given solely for the purpose of demonstrating that our action to receive a "gift" should not be construed as "works" in themselves.

You then ask "does unbelief in the form of apostasy get you kicked out?" I assume your meaning there is the loss of eternal salvation. (By the way, I am making no judgment on where you yourself fall in this discussion. I'm just offering food for thought.) I will say that I myself come down on the side that if one is truly "saved unto sonship" then that salvation is eternally secure. I don't like to use the OSAS heading because it implies things which can lead to much confusion. For those who come down on the side that one can forfeit their eternal salvation (after having obtained it) because of some degree of unbelief that one has for whatever reasons come into (after having come into genuine belief), my question will be, "well, where does God draw the line and say "Okay, that's it…your not saved any longer". I mean, a person who has come into genuine salvation in Christ doesn't just one day wake up and say to himself "I think I'll be an apostate now. I have absolutely no faith in Christ anymore." ALL of us have certain degree of struggles in our christian walk and maybe at some times even question our faith. Most of the time these are just moments of normal struggling within that could come upon us for a host of reasons and usually sort themselves out after a time or some fellowship with other believers etc. For others those struggles may lead to something much deeper and long-lasting whereby that one decides to depart from the faith. Again, my question is where does God draw the line (revoking salvation) in this process of departing the faith? Is salvation revoked as soon as that one experiences doubt in their faith? ...How much doubt? ...For how long? ..Under what circumstances? After one day? After one year? My answer would be, there is no line we cross that terminates our salvation (having obtained it prior). There are certainly consequences we will face for abandoning the faith. No doubt about that. But forfeiting our sonship in Christ is not one of them. The consequences may even be severe. If we lose our faith in Christ and go back to embracing the world and sin, we may surely face serious ramifications. That's one reason I chose not to use the OSAS heading. It is misleading, even though I technically agree with it.

 

[RickyZ]

Amen, 84Niner, very insightful words indeed. I don't like the OSAS moniker either, that's why I kinda mocked it in the thread title. But, it's what's commonly known by all, and does express how a lot of people incorrectly feel about it.

I guess I mistook your comment about the gift as I did because the thread started talking out about just that, receiving. Does one receive by faith or works? That's where my mind was at and I apologize for not seeing what was in your mind. And you're right, we concluded that receiving came by belief, and that belief was not an act of works. So even tho we missed each others brainwaves we still came to the same conclusion there.

Experience plays a lot in how we interpret God's Word. You said " I mean, a person who has come into genuine salvation in Christ doesn't just one day wake up and say to himself "I think I'll be an apostate now. I have absolutely no faith in Christ anymore." You evidently haven't experienced someone who has done just that. So for you to believe that doesn't happen is easy. But I have. I have 2 family members who have done just that, ok maybe not just waking up one day, but over time satan pounded and lured them away. Of course, satan pounds and lures us all away, and some follow to varying degrees. It's like you said, where is the line between backslide and apostasy?

Where was the line between unsaved and saved? It was at the point of true belief, right? So the question is can bonafide believers ever wake up and decide to not believe anymore? Not that they're just not going to walk the walk today, but that they decide to abandon Him altogether?

I say yes, because I've seen people do it.

And because God - Jesus - says it will happen.

I think 2 Timothy 2 13 & 12 say it very clearly:

13 - if we are backslid or doubtful He is faithful and holds on to us

12a - If we persevere against the pounding and lures we are golden

12b - But if we actually deny Him - which is what apostate means - He will do the same to us




2 Timothy 2 in the KJV (instead of the RickyZ )


Works:

13 If we believeth not, yet He abideth faithful. He cannot deny himself.

Perseverance

12a if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.

Apostasy

12b If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


Where does God draw the line? You tell me.

 

[konroh]

It seems there is a huge denial as to the actual order of 2 Tim. 2

2 Timothy 2:11b

Eternal security:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him;

Perseverance and Reward

12a if we endure, we will also reign with Him.

Lack of perseverance and lost reward

12b If we deny Him, He will also deny us (we cannot jump to a new group of people, it's still the "we", what is denied is in context, the "reigning with Him" this is reward.

Eternal Security

13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny himself.

Notice the A B B A chiastic structure, eternal security affirmed top and bottom with the middle of perseverance and rewards or lack of rewards.

It's a beautiful, trustworthy statement.

 

[ChristInUs]

so sin sin sin we all good

 

[mailmandan]

so sin sin sin we all good

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[ChristInUs]

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Okay so it is impossible for you to sin, You've been taught that. Lets look at that verse, It does not say that you will not sin, it says that you will not practice sin. It is the same that God told Cain that sin shall not rule over you. The cross break the power of sin yet we still pick and choose.

 

[mailmandan]

Okay so it is impossible for you to sin, You've been taught that. Lets look at that verse, It does not say that you will not sin, it says that you will not practice sin. It is the same that God told Cain that sin shall not rule over you. The cross break the power of sin yet we still pick and choose.

Amen! Those who are born of God will not practice sin, but this does not mean they will never sin at all. The idea of practice is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. The practice is habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice sin demonstrate that they have not been born of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

 

[PeterJens]

Is this statement true, Once married always married.

The gospel is a statement of marriage, we are the bride, Jesus is the groom. It is an invitation to a wedding, a celebration of love over bitterness and hatred. Jesus told the parable of the seed and the sower. Some seed fell on the path, the stoney ground, the soil.

Now who were saved? The people who believed but gave up soon after.

Salvation is about becoming, and I emphasis the word, becoming a loving individual who speaks from the heart, and does good works to help those in need that they meet. Jesus emphasised you might arrive at this point, realise its power and then leave the Lord. You will be like a dried up branch of a tree, withered and dead, but you will not realise it.

So all of this implies one thing. If you desire and walk with the Lord you are saved. If not, you are lost.

 

[mailmandan]

Is this statement true, Once married always married.

Not with man, yet Jesus is the groom who does not divorce His bride.

Jesus told the parable of the seed and the sower. Some seed fell on the path, the stoney ground, the soil.

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me give you the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.

Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" in a shallow way without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Now who were saved?

Those who received the seed on good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

The people who believed but gave up soon after.

Shallow temporary belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief. John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?' These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

Salvation is about becoming, and I emphasis the word, becoming a loving individual who speaks from the heart, and does good works to help those in need that they meet.

Salvation is about a relationship with Jesus Christ. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. This is intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Jesus emphasised you might arrive at this point, realise its power and then leave the Lord. You will be like a dried up branch of a tree, withered and dead, but you will not realise it.

Those who leave were never firmly rooted and established in the Lord to begin with. Those who are saved are alive in Christ and not dead.

So all of this implies one thing. If you desire and walk with the Lord you are saved.

By this you DEMONSTRATE that you are saved.

If not, you are lost.

If not you DEMONSTRATE that you are lost.

 

[notuptome]

so sin sin sin we all good

Where sin did abound grace did much more abound.

New creature new nature. Old nature bent to sin new nature conformed to the image of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

The real point I am making is talk OSAS, is almost meaningless, because people define their own version of saved.
Was Judas "saved"? Was Abraham saved? What you come down to is insecurity, knowing being religious is enough, but if I just do this or that then that will be better. The word for this is anxiety, doubt beating you up.

Jesus became a man and died for us because he knew this is our nature. He knew we always beat ourselves up, and emphasis the wrong things, and put extra rules to make things extra safe and ignore the hard stuff because that is too much etc. How much did the thief on the cross next to Jesus need to believe in to be saved. "Remember me."

It is no more complex than that, it is just keeping Jesus in perspective in all your deeds and letting love transform you. People love language, and getting the theology right, but what it comes down to is knowing we are lost and we trust him to bring us through. I have listened to people tell me how wrong this or that is, how this emphasis is too much and that is too little, but what it comes down to is do they love the Lord, and do they listen to him about their sin.

The armenians end up saying, I could loose my salvation so I must do this and that to prove I am worthy. It is like a son saying I must be a good boy or my dad will disown me. The ideas are all wrong. You must behave well because that is the best outcome for all and the way things are done well. Your dad will love whether you do well or badly, but they cannot stop the consequences of your actions. The reality is we are saved because we love the Lord and love works in our lives not because we do this number of good things etc. A better question is how many good relationships do you have?
Being a christian is just one of them.

 

[RickyZ]

It seems there is a huge denial as to the actual order of 2 Tim. 2

2 Timothy 2:11b

Eternal security:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him;

Perseverance and Reward

12a if we endure, we will also reign with Him.

Lack of perseverance and lost reward

12b If we deny Him, He will also deny us (we cannot jump to a new group of people, it's still the "we", what is denied is in context, the "reigning with Him" this is reward.

Eternal Security

13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny himself.

Notice the A B B A chiastic structure, eternal security affirmed top and bottom with the middle of perseverance and rewards or lack of rewards.

It's a beautiful, trustworthy statement.

One thing I've noted in my studies is that Paul seems to talk in circles a lot, and that does confuse a lot of people. 1 Corinthians 14 is great for that. Paul says one thing, and then a few sentences later reverses that. I re-ordered them to make the idea more clear and less circular. 2 Timothy 2:12b very clearly says that if we (and yes I agree Paul is talking about we the saved) deny God God will deny us. But that kinda gets lost on some people when it's sandwiched between "we are still saved" verses. That was the intent behind my re-ordering, to clearly show and define the situations in which we remain saved and the one situation in which we are not. As in your A B B A structure; you included all those situations in which we remain saved but completely omitted the one in which we are not. Being sandwiched in the middle does not negate it. So to use your A B B A,

One A affirms our security

One B affirms our security

One B tells us of the one situation in which we are not secure.

One final A affirms our security.

So just because 3 out of 4 situations affirm our security, you cannot overlook or discard the one situation in which we are not, even if it is sandwiched between all the affirmations.

And yes, I too think 2 Timothy 2 is a beautiful and trustworthy statement.

 

[RickyZ]

Not with man, yet Jesus is the groom who does not divorce His bride.

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me give you the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.

Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" in a shallow way without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Those who received the seed on good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Shallow temporary belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief. John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?' These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

Salvation is about a relationship with Jesus Christ. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. This is intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Those who leave were never firmly rooted and established in the Lord to begin with. Those who are saved are alive in Christ and not dead.

By this you DEMONSTRATE that you are saved. If not you DEMONSTRATE that you are lost.

Excellent analogies. The Bible does talk about those who were with us but never really were. And I think that goes back to what I said about how we view time against eternity. Here in time people can waffle, finding a shallow belief and following for a time but ultimately disbelieving and turning away (which is very clearly supported by scripture). But if on this side they turn away, they are therefore never actually with us on the other side. Said another way, people can believe and follow with us then turn away and leave us on this side, but on the other side, they never will be with us.

 

[RickyZ]

The real point I am making is talk OSAS, is almost meaningless, because people define their own version of saved.
Was Judas "saved"? Was Abraham saved? What you come down to is insecurity, knowing being religious is enough, but if I just do this or that then that will be better. The word for this is anxiety, doubt beating you up.

Jesus became a man and died for us because he knew this is our nature. He knew we always beat ourselves up, and emphasis the wrong things, and put extra rules to make things extra safe and ignore the hard stuff because that is too much etc. How much did the thief on the cross next to Jesus need to believe in to be saved. "Remember me."

It is no more complex than that, it is just keeping Jesus in perspective in all your deeds and letting love transform you. People love language, and getting the theology right, but what it comes down to is knowing we are lost and we trust him to bring us through. I have listened to people tell me how wrong this or that is, how this emphasis is too much and that is too little, but what it comes down to is do they love the Lord, and do they listen to him about their sin.

The armenians end up saying, I could loose my salvation so I must do this and that to prove I am worthy. It is like a son saying I must be a good boy or my dad will disown me. The ideas are all wrong. You must behave well because that is the best outcome for all and the way things are done well. Your dad will love whether you do well or badly, but they cannot stop the consequences of your actions. The reality is we are saved because we love the Lord and love works in our lives not because we do this number of good things etc. A better question is how many good relationships do you have?
Being a christian is just one of them.

And that was the whole point of this thread, to eliminate the works salvation issue that OSAS debates most often boil down to. We have determined that works cannot get you saved, nor can works get you unsaved. Salvation lies in belief or unbelief which we have shown to not be acts of works.

However, we also saw that the quality of your works is a reliable indicator of your salvation. One who is saved produces good works even if they may at times stumble. Chronic, habitual bad works points the finger at the person and says this person is not true in their salvation. Works are kinda like the gas gauge in your car... the gauge shows whether or not there is gas in your tank, but the gauge is not the gas in the tank itself that the car runs on.

 

[notuptome]

And that was the whole point of this thread, to eliminate the works salvation issue that OSAS debates most often boil down to. We have determined that works cannot get you saved, nor can works get you unsaved. Salvation lies in belief or unbelief which we have shown to not be acts of works.

However, we also saw that the quality of your works is a reliable indicator of your salvation. One who is saved produces good works even if they may at times stumble. Chronic, habitual bad works points the finger at the person and says this person is not true in their salvation. Works are kinda like the gas gauge in your car... the gauge shows whether or not there is gas in your tank, but the gauge is not the gas in the tank itself that the car runs on.

One would hope that the difference between dead and alive would be readily distinguished.

Eph 2 Ye who were dead in trespass and sin are now quickened, made alive, in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[84Niner]

It seems there is a huge denial as to the actual order of 2 Tim. 2

2 Timothy 2:11b

Eternal security:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him;

Perseverance and Reward

12a if we endure, we will also reign with Him.

Lack of perseverance and lost reward

12b If we deny Him, He will also deny us (we cannot jump to a new group of people, it's still the "we", what is denied is in context, the "reigning with Him" this is reward.

Eternal Security

13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny himself.

Notice the A B B A chiastic structure, eternal security affirmed top and bottom with the middle of perseverance and rewards or lack of rewards.

It's a beautiful, trustworthy statement.

I pretty much agree with this. I do not feel this passage is concerning our eternal salvation.