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Amen, 84Niner, very insightful words indeed. I don't like the OSAS moniker either, that's why I kinda mocked it in the thread title. But, it's what's commonly known by all, and does express how a lot of people incorrectly feel about it.
I guess I mistook your comment about the gift as I did because the thread started talking out about just that, receiving. Does one receive by faith or works? That's where my mind was at and I apologize for not seeing what was in your mind. And you're right, we concluded that receiving came by belief, and that belief was not an act of works. So even tho we missed each others brainwaves we still came to the same conclusion there.
Experience plays a lot in how we interpret God's Word. You said " I mean, a person who has come into genuine salvation in Christ doesn't just one day wake up and say to himself "I think I'll be an apostate now. I have absolutely no faith in Christ anymore." You evidently haven't experienced someone who has done just that. So for you to believe that doesn't happen is easy. But I have. I have 2 family members who have done just that, ok maybe not just waking up one day, but over time satan pounded and lured them away. Of course, satan pounds and lures us all away, and some follow to varying degrees. It's like you said, where is the line between backslide and apostasy?
Where was the line between unsaved and saved? It was at the point of true belief, right? So the question is can bonafide believers ever wake up and decide to not believe anymore? Not that they're just not going to walk the walk today, but that they decide to abandon Him altogether?
I say yes, because I've seen people do it.
And because God - Jesus - says it will happen.
I think 2 Timothy 2 13 & 12 say it very clearly:
13 - if we are backslid or doubtful He is faithful and holds on to us
12a - If we persevere against the pounding and lures we are golden
12b - But if we actually deny Him - which is what apostate means - He will do the same to us
2 Timothy 2 in the KJV (instead of the RickyZ )
Works:
13 If we believeth not, yet He abideth faithful. He cannot deny himself.
Perseverance
12a if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.
Apostasy
12b If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
Where does God draw the line? You tell me.
I guess I mistook your comment about the gift as I did because the thread started talking out about just that, receiving. Does one receive by faith or works? That's where my mind was at and I apologize for not seeing what was in your mind. And you're right, we concluded that receiving came by belief, and that belief was not an act of works. So even tho we missed each others brainwaves we still came to the same conclusion there.
Experience plays a lot in how we interpret God's Word. You said " I mean, a person who has come into genuine salvation in Christ doesn't just one day wake up and say to himself "I think I'll be an apostate now. I have absolutely no faith in Christ anymore." You evidently haven't experienced someone who has done just that. So for you to believe that doesn't happen is easy. But I have. I have 2 family members who have done just that, ok maybe not just waking up one day, but over time satan pounded and lured them away. Of course, satan pounds and lures us all away, and some follow to varying degrees. It's like you said, where is the line between backslide and apostasy?
Where was the line between unsaved and saved? It was at the point of true belief, right? So the question is can bonafide believers ever wake up and decide to not believe anymore? Not that they're just not going to walk the walk today, but that they decide to abandon Him altogether?
I say yes, because I've seen people do it.
And because God - Jesus - says it will happen.
I think 2 Timothy 2 13 & 12 say it very clearly:
13 - if we are backslid or doubtful He is faithful and holds on to us
12a - If we persevere against the pounding and lures we are golden
12b - But if we actually deny Him - which is what apostate means - He will do the same to us
2 Timothy 2 in the KJV (instead of the RickyZ )
Works:
13 If we believeth not, yet He abideth faithful. He cannot deny himself.
Perseverance
12a if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.
Apostasy
12b If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
Where does God draw the line? You tell me.
You see, once a person comes to grip with the notion that once having crossed that line of entering into Christ, and that salvation is "secure", it isn't too long that one begins to realize that they are living a far from perfect life. Maybe better than before, but far from "perfect". Then we have to confront the many passages in the bible that seem to suggest that if one strays far enough away from the faith, and regresses back to their former way of living, that one may become eternally lost.
Personally I do not feel there is any allowance given for losing our salvation, having once obtained it. For sake of discussion, lets lay aside the ones who are christian in name only yet who are not genuinely saved. I'm talking about genuinely saved ones who have strayed so far that they even now openly deny their faith. Yes, I do feel that this can happen to genuinely saved people. And I also feel that even these ones are not becoming "unsaved".
There are many many aspects to this kind of falling away. There may be some who are genuinely saved, yet their lives reflect a still very sinful lifestyle. What about these ones?? Then there are those who come to a place where they deny the faith. What about these ones?
Our initial salvation is simply a beginning of a new Life. The culmination of that life is one of glorification. There is a vast gulf between becoming born again, and becoming glorified. At every turn, at every challenge, at every crisis, the answer is always the same…Christ. It took me 20 years to finally begin to get this. I still am learning this lesson, but at least now I don't spin my wheels as much as before.
This is a huge topic, and there is an answer. The answer for me, may not be the one that you or others are looking for. That answer isn't so simple and is one that I could spend days writing on in this forum. Thus I will leave it at this for now.
One point of study that I will leave you with, is this age we are now living in (the church age) will come to a conclusion. At the conclusion of this age not all genuine Christians will be matured in Christ. There will be millions alive that will be in all manners of stages of growth in Life in Christ. Also of course, there will be all those who have passed away who at the time of their passing will have been in any different stage of their growth in Christ. Some, will have been completely faithful to their salvation and may even be deemed "overcomers", and some will have been the opposite having fallen back into sin, or whatever. And then you will have all those somewhere in-between. God knows. But this age will end, whether we are ready or not. Then the next age will come in, and that age will be called the Millennial Kingdom age. 1,000 years. What will that 1,000 years be for? I can't wait to hear all the answers from those who read this thread. Anyway, some will say that during that age we will be reigning for 1,000 years with Christ. Well yea, okay. Does that mean those who got saved last week and still live in sin will be reigning with Christ for 1,000 years? And who, what, will we be reigning over?
It's funny, the next age is I believe nearly upon us, yet not too many christians talk about it. Or if they do, it is in a very vague manner. I for one believe that one aspect of the next age will have very much to do with all the millions of born again believers who for whatever reason did not experience much maturation and transformation in Christ in this age of "grace".
Like I said, a huge topic. If you are seriously interested I can maybe recommend some literature that would probably be better than this forum that often just turns into endless debate by those trying to prove their points. Carry on…Bro
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