Just out of curiousity

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lil-rush

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#1
Pretty much everyone, when they find out I follow the Torah, make the assumption that I do it in order to guarantee my salvation(even my parents believed so for a while until I told them otherwise). They have this assumption that I believe in works-based salvation, that I cannot be saved unless I follow the Torah.

The weird thing is that I have never once expressed that I believe following God's commandments will save me from hell. If anyone is willing to ask - instead of making completely off-base assumptions- I will tell them that I follow the Torah because it is an expression of my love toward God, and because I wish to be an obedient child of The Most High.

***

That being said, why is it that people are so quick to assume that I follow the Torah out of a since of works-based salvation, yet no one ever makes the assumption that Christians follow Jesus' teachings out of a since of works-based salvation?

I mean, this isn't something that is taught in churches. Growing up, I never had a pastor say "If anyone follows the Torah, they are doing it out of sense of works-based salvation." So where does the belief come from? Why is that always the first thing people assume?
 
C

carpetmanswife

Guest
#2
The weird thing is that I have never once expressed that I believe following God's commandments will save me from hell. If anyone is willing to ask - instead of making completely off-base assumptions- I will tell them that I follow the Torah because it is an expression of my love toward God, and because I wish to be an obedient child of The Most High.
I feel the same way about about obedience to Gods word in general...but because i attend a pentecostal church many people believe that i have a works based salvation, which just isnt true at all...i understand ya . :)
 
May 21, 2009
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#3
Hi, I didn't know you followed the Torah. You also follow the New Testament thats about our Lord right?
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#4
because it is so much about you, that we now even have a thread about you and why you do things, this is a bible discussion forum not lil-rush Forum . I never assumed you believed in works based salvation , because of your tolerance for abortion, if you believe a woman should have a choice to kill her unborn baby , that is no work based salvation. this is a bible discussion forum it should be about God and the Bible, we have a new coveant with God now the new testament, if you want to go back under the law then that is you, I will saty with the new coveant and under grace, Jesus set you free , and free indeed ye should be. free to serve him though Not to kill babies.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#5
I think that too often that is one of the excessives that get thrown at Christians, so they assume that if you are following the Torah, that you are going to do the same thing.
 
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lil-rush

Guest
#6
loveschild, I sure do follow the NT teachings as well. :)

Thaddeus, it's amazing how much you missed the point of my thread. lol. I am asking where the assumptions came from, and why there seems to be a double-standard.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to focus on myself. I tend to speak in specifics when I can, though. If it will make this thread seem less me-centered, I can point out the fact that all of my friends who follow Torah have to deal with the same thing, and I have noticed the same thing happen to people on this site who say they follow Torah.
If I should have asked this question in a different forum, forgive me. I thought it was Bible-related, but I make mistakes.
 
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songster

Guest
#7
loveschild, I sure do follow the NT teachings as well. :)

Thaddeus, it's amazing how much you missed the point of my thread. lol. I am asking where the assumptions came from, and why there seems to be a double-standard.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to focus on myself. I tend to speak in specifics when I can, though. If it will make this thread seem less me-centered, I can point out the fact that all of my friends who follow Torah have to deal with the same thing, and I have noticed the same thing happen to people on this site who say they follow Torah.
If I should have asked this question in a different forum, forgive me. I thought it was Bible-related, but I make mistakes.
It really makes little difference to me. We are all free to bypass titles and exit threads at will, no comments required, once we determine we are not interested in a particular thread.

I am a little confused about the original post. Why, if you are a Christian, have you constructed a rule based (not works based), style of obedience to Christ? If by this you mean obeying the first 2 commandments, and in doing so, you fulfill the remainder of the law, then I believe we all follow the commandments in that regard, or if you follow the prophecies which lead to the revealing of the Christ in the New Testament, or glean truth from historical accounts contained in the OT, I would say that all of us do this.

What is this Christian/Judaic belief that distinguishes you from your brothers and sisters in Christ, or causes you to believe that your belief is so unique?? Without a clear understanding of what you believe, or how it distinguishes itself from mainstream Christianity, it is difficult to tell you why someone might question your belief. Until then, there is nothing unique about believing the entire bible, as you've already admitted you do.

If you tell me that you are following all of the Levitical Laws, that might raise some eyebrows.
 
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lil-rush

Guest
#8
Levitical laws, basically. I say Torah, because there are laws found in all five books.
 
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songster

Guest
#9
Levitical laws, basically. I say Torah, because there are laws found in all five books.
Leviticus can be broken down into a few parts, generally speaking. Priestly instruction, Laws pertaining to Sacrifice, Laws pertaining to Holiness and Purification, and Laws of conduct and punishment.

Which of these would pertain to your way of believing?
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#10
Maybe, Lil-Rush it's because a lot of people don't undersand the Torah/Levitical rules. We often assume a lot about things we don't understand. I'm still very confused by the whole keep the Law/ free from the Law debate. A lot of people assume that since I"m a Christian I don't drink, or smoke, or watch tv, or wear skirts and high heels, or do laundry on Sunday, and thats a lot of assumptions on their part because they don't understand my relationship with God, or Christanity in general.

I don't think there is anything wrong with following the Torah. I think it's a good way to exercize your spirituality and commitments to God. I do not think it is necessary for salvation, but what is a stumbling block to one person, is a steppingn stone for someone else. I find it admirable that you follow the Torah to better yourself for God.
 
May 21, 2009
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#11
Hi, Lil-rush,
I'm shocked to see that you were attacked here. I've noticed this same person always attacking people. It's a shame. You should report him. It has gone on long enough as far as I'm concerned.
You need not say your sorry to a person like that. Just feel sorry for him and pray for him.
The laws were to show people they could never follow the laws and that they needed God. In the new book and Jesus then we now get to live by grace. To go by the old book makes everything much harder for you. We have enough problems in our lives already.
Your post was talking about the bible and you are on a bible site. There was nothing wrong in what you did. You should not be attacked and should report it. God bless you on your journey.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#12
Maybe, Lil-Rush it's because a lot of people don't undersand the Torah/Levitical rules. We often assume a lot about things we don't understand. I'm still very confused by the whole keep the Law/ free from the Law debate. A lot of people assume that since I"m a Christian I don't drink, or smoke, or watch tv, or wear skirts and high heels, or do laundry on Sunday, and thats a lot of assumptions on their part because they don't understand my relationship with God, or Christanity in general.

I don't think there is anything wrong with following the Torah. I think it's a good way to exercize your spirituality and commitments to God. I do not think it is necessary for salvation, but what is a stumbling block to one person, is a steppingn stone for someone else. I find it admirable that you follow the Torah to better yourself for God.
Oh wow. That makes alot of sense. I didn't think of it like that. So it could be a simple lack of understanding.

***
Songster, I believe all 613 mitzvot in the Torah should be observed, but some of them don't apply to me personally (like growing a beard, the clothing priests are required to wear, etc). The laws of sacrifice cannot be fulfilled at the moment, because there is no Temple.

***
thank you Loveschild. :) And you are right, following the laws does make my life a smidge harder, but I'm okay with that. Jesus said His burden is easy, so it is a burden I'm willing to bear.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#13
lil-rush, keeping the law is a burden Jesus already bore for you, and He did it perfectly. There is therefore no good reason why you would or should need to keep the law, in the sense of all 600+ commands. That's why most christians don't, because they understand what Christ has done for us. That's why faith in "Christ our righteousness" is always opposed to "keeping the law" apart from Christ, i.e." "faith in Christ" and "our righteousness" ". Hopefully you will one day understand that too in greater measure. Paul taught that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness", and unless you're an old testament Jew living under Moses, those laws are not and were not given for you to keep anyway.
 
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Israel

Guest
#14
Pretty much everyone, when they find out I follow the Torah, make the assumption that I do it in order to guarantee my salvation(even my parents believed so for a while until I told them otherwise). They have this assumption that I believe in works-based salvation, that I cannot be saved unless I follow the Torah.

The weird thing is that I have never once expressed that I believe following God's commandments will save me from hell. If anyone is willing to ask - instead of making completely off-base assumptions- I will tell them that I follow the Torah because it is an expression of my love toward God, and because I wish to be an obedient child of The Most High.

***

That being said, why is it that people are so quick to assume that I follow the Torah out of a since of works-based salvation, yet no one ever makes the assumption that Christians follow Jesus' teachings out of a since of works-based salvation?

I mean, this isn't something that is taught in churches. Growing up, I never had a pastor say "If anyone follows the Torah, they are doing it out of sense of works-based salvation." So where does the belief come from? Why is that always the first thing people assume?

2Corinthians 2:18
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The letter of the law was done away with. But their still remains a spiritual law that has not and will not change. That is His moral law, the Ten Commandments. The letter of these were done away with. But spiritually, we know in our hearts, it is wrong to commit murder, or to steal or bear fals witness. By the letter we were told to rest Saturday. But by the Spirit, God is God everyday of the week. How do you rest on the Sabbath spiritually? By righteously worshipping in Spirit and Truth. Salvation is secured in Faith in Christ.

Heberews 4
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Again, having secured salvation through Jesus blood, we must now only labour to enter into God's rest. We do that by obeying the two great commandments. To love God with all our being, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Let no man judge you in food or drink or in relation to a sabbath. If you want to worship on Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday, or everyday of the week, do it with a clear conscious. Again God is God everyday of the week. If you eat beef or pork or no meat at all, do it with a clear conscious. What goes into a man doesn't defile him but what comes out defiles a man. Our job is to Labour to come to an understanding of the TRUTH of God in Faith in Jesus Christ!
 
S

songster

Guest
#15
Pretty much everyone, when they find out I follow the Torah, make the assumption that I do it in order to guarantee my salvation(even my parents believed so for a while until I told them otherwise). They have this assumption that I believe in works-based salvation, that I cannot be saved unless I follow the Torah.

The weird thing is that I have never once expressed that I believe following God's commandments will save me from hell. If anyone is willing to ask - instead of making completely off-base assumptions- I will tell them that I follow the Torah because it is an expression of my love toward God, and because I wish to be an obedient child of The Most High.

***

That being said, why is it that people are so quick to assume that I follow the Torah out of a since of works-based salvation, yet no one ever makes the assumption that Christians follow Jesus' teachings out of a since of works-based salvation?

I mean, this isn't something that is taught in churches. Growing up, I never had a pastor say "If anyone follows the Torah, they are doing it out of sense of works-based salvation." So where does the belief come from? Why is that always the first thing people assume?
Assuming this is open for discussion, I am curious what you make of the fact that Jesus ended the sacrificial requirements by becoming the ultimate sacrifice. If you are practicing Judaism, each of us certainly has a choice to practice any religion we choose, but claiming that this particular belief is consistent with Christian theology may not be an accurate assumption. For me, this is not necessarily about you, but you simply represent a % of people in our society, and discussing this adds to my understanding of the belief systems being practiced in our world today.

It is generally accepted as Christian doctrine, that the sacrificial practices in accordance with requirements associated with achieving atonement, under the ordinances contained in Leviticus, were not sufficient to make the people of God perfect. This is well supported by NT scriptures pertaining to true atonement.

When God manifested himself, in the flesh, through the person of Christ, and offered himself as an atoning sacrifice, this offering, being more perfect than any other, caused the temple sacrifices to lose their worth, or their ability to atone for one's sins, (not that they ever actually could). In addition, we know that the temple sacrifices offered in obedience to ordinances, was insufficient to overcome the curse, which remained a blight on man's history, from the time of Adam, to the time of Christ. According to scripture, Jesus bore the curse, a curse which observing the law now produces. (Galations 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law, which apart from Grace is a near impossibility.

Galations 3 provides perhaps one of the most thorough explanations of how, by observing the law, faith is made worthless. Paul emphasizes that the Just (the righteous), will live by faith. It is also known that we enter the Grace of God through faith. No one is justified before God, by the law, because the law is not based on faith.

What we're talking about is not the establishing of a works based faith, but rather the devaluation of the finished work of Jesus. After considering this, what are your present interpretations of the following scriptures?

Hebrews 10:10

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:4

...it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins..
 
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Graybeard

Guest
#16
Hi, Lil-rush,
I'm shocked to see that you were attacked here. I've noticed this same person always attacking people. It's a shame. You should report him. It has gone on long enough as far as I'm concerned.
You need not say your sorry to a person like that. Just feel sorry for him and pray for him.
The laws were to show people they could never follow the laws and that they needed God. In the new book and Jesus then we now get to live by grace. To go by the old book makes everything much harder for you. We have enough problems in our lives already.
Your post was talking about the bible and you are on a bible site. There was nothing wrong in what you did. You should not be attacked and should report it. God bless you on your journey.
No loveschild...do not be shocked, because that person believes they have the right to attack others who are not of their flock. In other words they believe that "am I my brothers keeper?" only applies to people who are from "their flock" and anyone else can be attacked as they are not accountable for anything they say to them.
Until they come to the realization that we are ALL of one flock and that is the flock of Jesus Christ, they believe they have license to demean, hurt or undermine others.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#17
Assuming this is open for discussion, I am curious what you make of the fact that Jesus ended the sacrificial requirements by becoming the ultimate sacrifice. If you are practicing Judaism, each of us certainly has a choice to practice any religion we choose, but claiming that this particular belief is consistent with Christian theology may not be an accurate assumption. For me, this is not necessarily about you, but you simply represent a % of people in our society, and discussing this adds to my understanding of the belief systems being practiced in our world today.

It is generally accepted as Christian doctrine, that the sacrificial practices in accordance with requirements associated with achieving atonement, under the ordinances contained in Leviticus, were not sufficient to make the people of God perfect. This is well supported by NT scriptures pertaining to true atonement.


Well, I agree with that. No part of the law can make a person perfect.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but at the moment I don't have much of an opinion about the sacrificial laws yet. By that, I mean I don't know if they should still be observed since Jesus was our perfect sacrifice. I do think it would be rather redundant to offer sacrifices to God when Jesus served as our sacrificial lamb. At the moment, I've been lazy in researching that point of the law because I don't have to worry about it. Since the temple has not been rebuilt in Jerusalem, there is no place where sacrifices could be made at the moment.

When God manifested himself, in the flesh, through the person of Christ, and offered himself as an atoning sacrifice, this offering, being more perfect than any other, caused the temple sacrifices to lose their worth, or their ability to atone for one's sins, (not that they ever actually could). In addition, we know that the temple sacrifices offered in obedience to ordinances, was insufficient to overcome the curse, which remained a blight on man's history, from the time of Adam, to the time of Christ. According to scripture, Jesus bore the curse, a curse which observing the law now produces. (Galations 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law, which apart from Grace is a near impossibility.
I take that verse to mean that the law becomes a curse when you do not observe it correctly. The law can be either a blessing or a curse. If you uphold the law and observe it both outwardly and in your heart, the law is a blessing to you. If you do not uphold the law in either your heart or outwardly it becomes a burden and a curse. I mean, if you sit there following the law every day, but do it out of a sense of duty instead of love, of course it will be a burden and a curse to you.

Galations 3 provides perhaps one of the most thorough explanations of how, by observing the law, faith is made worthless. Paul emphasizes that the Just (the righteous), will live by faith. It is also known that we enter the Grace of God through faith. No one is justified before God, by the law, because the law is not based on faith.
To follow the law does not mean one does not have faith. To believe that you must follow the law in order to be saved might mean one does not have faith, but I don't believe that. Paul is saying the law doesn't save you, but faith does.

What we're talking about is not the establishing of a works based faith, but rather the devaluation of the finished work of Jesus. After considering this, what are your present interpretations of the following scriptures?
Hebrews 10:10

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:4

...it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins..
I agree with both. The thing is, Christians/Messianics who follow Torah do not believe the law sanctifies them or makes them holy. Well, in general, that is the belief held. I am sure there are some who believe the law makes them holy. The law does not replace Jesus' sacrifice for us, though.

I don't think I need to sacrifice a bull once a year in order to have my sins forgiven. I know I can simply pray to God and be repentant and He will forgive me because Jesus' blood covers over all my sins. I do not believe following the laws make me holy, because only Jesus can make me holy.

I follow the laws because Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments" and "Do not think that I came to destrop the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. for assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle wil by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." It's a matter of love and obedience. (John 14:15, Matthew 5:17-18)
 
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socperkins

Guest
#18
I think it's cool that you follow the Torah and I can understand your reasons. Because it's not necessary to follow it though, I concentrate on the "new rules". I have enough trouble following them =S.
 

cookie39

Senior Member
Oct 5, 2009
616
12
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#19
if you offend ONE PART OF THE LAW YOU HAVE OFFENDED THE WHOLE LAW; you say there is not temple for sacrifices; so people are dying in their sins... for that is the law of forgivness.. and there is not a temple because the Spirit of God left it on the day Christ died for us.. the Curtain to the Holy of Holies was rent from Top to Bottom.. that no one can say a man tore it.. it was God. so if you do not do what the law say about sacrifices then you have offended the whole law. Jesus said the law must be fulflled in it's whole not what man choose to do or what they say they can only do.if God wnted it to still be done.. He is God.. he would of made a way. Abraham did not have a temple and the chldren of Isreal did not always have a temple but God excepted their sacrifices where ever they made them and the places where then called Holy... I am not saying that it is wrong to honour God in the ways of the law, but it should never be taught that it is a requierment of salvation... and I see that is not what you are doing here. I just pray God that the Jews wil hear sound doctrine and not the doctrines of devils nor that of man.... as the bible say they will make void the doctrine of Christ.. Lord let then see the light and rremove the veils of their minds of thoose whom the devil has blinded from your truth.. in the Holy name of our Lord and saviour Christ Jesus. Amen
 
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songster

Guest
#20
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I don't think I need to sacrifice a bull once a year in order to have my sins forgiven. I know I can simply pray to God and be repentant and He will forgive me because Jesus' blood covers over all my sins. I do not believe following the laws make me holy, because only Jesus can make me holy.

I follow the laws because Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments" and "Do not think that I came to destrop the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. for assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle wil by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." It's a matter of love and obedience. (John 14:15, Matthew 5:17-18)
I can assume by these comments, that you acknowledge that no sacrifice, apart from Jesus offering himself once and for all as an atonement, is necessary, or at least you seem uncertain as to their present benefit. Sacrifices, according to scripture were offered specifically for atonement., and the belief was, that sacrifices would rid them of sin. Leviticus 9:7
Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people;

It was necessary, as you know, for a Priest to offer sacrifices on behalf of the people. For Jesus, to have become both the 'Hight Priest' and the 'Sacrifice', this eliminated the need for both.

You've acknowledged that the blood of bulls and goats is insufficient to take away sin, and the following scripture also rids us of the need for a High Priest to offer sacrifice, (even if their was a temple for sacrifical offerings).

Hebrews 6:20

... Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever,

You would agree, that if we accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and acknowledge Him as our High Priest, who enterred once and for all on our behalf, any Priest offering sacrifices on our behalf would not only becomes unnecessary, but somewhat meaningless.

When Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, the word fulfill also means to complete, or to bring to an end, such as in Luke 4:21 .

... he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

He was referring to a prophecy, nevertheless, the term fulfill is used here to indicate a completion of something foretold. The Old Testament is a shadow of what was to come. Everything from the sacrifice, to the temple, to the crossing of the Jordan, were all symbolic of what was to come.

I am sure you don't desire for individuals who follow Wicca, or those who blaspheme, to be put to death, and yet this was required.

For Christians, the commandments contained in OT scripture, are references we use in order to define sin. Paul consents to this in Romans 7:7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Therefore, the law is the reference used by Christians to determine what sin is. This is why I say that you are perceiving the law in a way that is not different from the way that any Christian should perceive it.
 
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