Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Truth7t7

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No, it's you that has it all backwards. The Great Tribulation is about Satan persecuting Christians. God's wrath for Satan doing that happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended. God's wrath begins here:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Anyone teaching God's wrath came before this doesn't understand scripture properly.
The Great Tribulatiin Is About God Judging The Wicked, Throught The Plagues Brought By The (Two Witnesses) Of Rev Chapter 11:1-15

A Complete Remake Of Mises/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 16:2-11KJV
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat,
and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

Evmur

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A man beats another.
Wrath is his dynamic

The one receiving it is in tribulation ( trouble)
God absolutely cannot pour out His wrath upon unrepented sinners while the church is among the nations.

Look at this

That is why the church is raptured, only Paul understood this. But crucially it is also why Israel is being gathered and will be fully gathered. God's wrath is poured upon those who come up against Israel.

The church is saved from God's wrath but we are warned that we will experience tribulation.
 

Truth7t7

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Jesus said "in the world you will have tribulation" this shows that tribulation comes from man.
Man and Spiritual Wickedness

Ephesians 6:12KJV
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 

Evmur

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I agree that "God's wrath" can refer simply to God's discipline of His children (divine discipline), but don't discount that God's wrath will be the MAJOR theme of the 7 year Tribulation. There are 3 sets of 7 judgments against the earth and the people on it.
there is no church on earth after chapter 6 of Revelations John sees us all in heaven the great multitude which cannot be numbered, "these are they who have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Thereafter we see the now converted Jews.

The reason people find Revelations so difficult, you can't hardly get 2 christians to agree on it's interpretation, is because it does not apply to the church after the early chapters.
 

Evmur

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The very wording refutes your claim. The Jews will be horribly persecuted by the first Beast (aka antichrist), esp after he enters the temple and declares himself to be God and demands that the Jews worship him.


How many repetitions before something is true? Only once.


It doesn't say Jacob will be spared from pain. And, this verse refers to the fact that as Satan's world armies close in around Israel to annihilate it completely, Jesus comes and destroys the armies.


To "have quiet and ease" refers to the Millennial reign of Israel's King of kings and Lord of lords.


Yes, the NT church believers will go through the Tribulation, and when Jesus returns, He will give glorified bodies to all believers, both dead and living.
You have to decide whether the Jews will have pain or whether they will have quietness and be at ease as Jeremiah says and none shall make them afraid.

I am not diminishing the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" only I point out that the only time it is said in scripture God says He will save them out of it and that they will sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make him afraid.

"Jacob's trouble" is the time of tribulation such as there never has been since the world began nor shall be again. Daniel also speaks about it in chapter 12. "then shall Michael the mighty cherub who has the care of your people will stand up and thy people will be delivered, every one whose name is written in the book.

Isaiah speaks about it and Ezekiel.

It is not the Mill though I believe in the Mill.
 

FreeGrace2

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God absolutely cannot pour out His wrath upon unrepented sinners while the church is among the nations.
With God, all things are possible. Matt 19:26

Look at this

That is why the church is raptured, only Paul understood this. But crucially it is also why Israel is being gathered and will be fully gathered. God's wrath is poured upon those who come up against Israel.
Since you believe that Jesus comes before the Tribulation and takes all glorified believers back up to Heaven (U-turn), what verse or verses actually make this clear? Thanks.

The church is saved from God's wrath but we are warned that we will experience tribulation.
The faithful will be spared from God's wrath, but will experience persecution and martyrdom, but the disobedient will experience God's wrath in the form of divine discipline unto (physical) death.
 

FreeGrace2

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there is no church on earth after chapter 6 of Revelations John sees us all in heaven the great multitude which cannot be numbered,
There are no verses that say that the church won't be on earth. In fact, the entire book of Revelation is "bookended" with mention of the Church.

ch 1
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

What then follows are 3 chapters dedicated to the Church.

ch 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So, ALL of Revelation is "for the churches".

"these are they who have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Yes, they will be in heaven, because they died. That's where ALL believers who physically die go.

The reason people find Revelations so difficult, you can't hardly get 2 christians to agree on it's interpretation, is because it does not apply to the church after the early chapters.
Rev 1-3 and 22:16 say otherwise. It is most definitely FOR the churches.
 

Evmur

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With God, all things are possible. Matt 19:26


Since you believe that Jesus comes before the Tribulation and takes all glorified believers back up to Heaven (U-turn), what verse or verses actually make this clear? Thanks.


The faithful will be spared from God's wrath, but will experience persecution and martyrdom, but the disobedient will experience God's wrath in the form of divine discipline unto (physical) death.
God is bound by His solemn oath since the flood that never again will He destroy indiscriminantly or punish the righteous with the wicked. That's why we see the rainbow in the sky. God cannot pour His wrath upon the world while the church is here.

I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days" ... that is post-trib.
 

FreeGrace2

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You have to decide whether the Jews will have pain or whether they will have quietness and be at ease as Jeremiah says and none shall make them afraid.
Please share the specific verse(s) that Jeremiah wrote regarding this. I'm sure the context will clear things up.

I am not diminishing the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" only I point out that the only time it is said in scripture God says He will save them out of it
I already explained that. Jesus will PRESERVE (save) the nation from extinction when He returns at the Second Advent.

and that they will sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make him afraid.
Reference to the Millennium.

If Jesus makes a U-turn with glorified believers and takes them back up to heaven, how come there are NO verses that say so?

I was raised believing in a pre-Trib rapture. But when I began to study the Word like the Bereans did, I realized that there is nothing in Scripture to support the pre-Trib U-turn.

Everything points to the Second Advent, when all believers will be "gathered" and glorified, and then rule with Christ during the Millennium.

btw, "gathered" is the biblical word. "raptured" isn't a biblical word.
 

Evmur

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There are no verses that say that the church won't be on earth. In fact, the entire book of Revelation is "bookended" with mention of the Church.

ch 1
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

What then follows are 3 chapters dedicated to the Church.

ch 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So, ALL of Revelation is "for the churches".


Yes, they will be in heaven, because they died. That's where ALL believers who physically die go.


Rev 1-3 and 22:16 say otherwise. It is most definitely FOR the churches.
The church is not mentioned after chapter 6 where they are in heaven.
 

FreeGrace2

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God is bound by His solemn oath since the flood that never again will He destroy indiscriminantly or punish the righteous with the wicked.
And I agree.

That's why we see the rainbow in the sky. God cannot pour His wrath upon the world while the church is here.
Yes He can. Please don't limit God. Just like He spared Israel in Egypt when He poured out His judgment on Egypt.

I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture.
OK, that's interesting. Define "pre-wrath" please. When the Trib is over, Jesus returns and sets up His Millennial Reign.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days" ... that is post-trib.
Yes, of course. The "gathering" occurs then. But it seems you still believe Jesus takes the glorified believers back up to heaven. If not, then where?
 

FreeGrace2

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The church is not mentioned after chapter 6 where they are in heaven.
Can you give me specific verses that say that? As far as I can see, that is merely speculation and conjecture.

All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course. But there will be NT believers on earth during the Tribulation. That's why John wrote ch1-3 and 22:16 FOR the church.

If the church isn't involved in the Trib, then why bother with Revelation anyway?
 

Evmur

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Can you give me specific verses that say that? As far as I can see, that is merely speculation and conjecture.

All the 2 centuries of the church that have already died are in heaven, of course. But there will be NT believers on earth during the Tribulation. That's why John wrote ch1-3 and 22:16 FOR the church.

If the church isn't involved in the Trib, then why bother with Revelation anyway?

Tribulation yes, God's wrath never. After ch 6 the church is in heave, in chapter 22 the new Jerusalem which is the church comes down from heaven.
 

Truth7t7

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God absolutely cannot pour out His wrath upon unrepented sinners while the church is among the nations.

Look at this

That is why the church is raptured, only Paul understood this. But crucially it is also why Israel is being gathered and will be fully gathered. God's wrath is poured upon those who come up against Israel.

The church is saved from God's wrath but we are warned that we will experience tribulation.
The "Sealed" church will be present on earth during the tribulation, and be protected by Gods seal, all believers maintain this seal, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

You will closely note below, only those men which (Have Not The Seal Of God) will be tormented for 5 months.

Revelation 9:4-6KJV
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The tribulation will be controlled by the (Two Withesses) of Revelation 11, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

(All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

Truth7t7

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You have to decide whether the Jews will have pain or whether they will have quietness and be at ease as Jeremiah says and none shall make them afraid.

I am not diminishing the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" only I point out that the only time it is said in scripture God says He will save them out of it and that they will sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make him afraid.

"Jacob's trouble" is the time of tribulation such as there never has been since the world began nor shall be again. Daniel also speaks about it in chapter 12. "then shall Michael the mighty cherub who has the care of your people will stand up and thy people will be delivered, every one whose name is written in the book.

Isaiah speaks about it and Ezekiel.

It is not the Mill though I believe in the Mill.
2/3 of the Jews will be cut of and die "Blind" to salvation during the future tribulation, only the chosen elect "Remnant" 1/3 will be saved and added to the Church.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 

ewq1938

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Tribulation yes, God's wrath never. After ch 6 the church is in heave, in chapter 22 the new Jerusalem which is the church comes down from heaven.
The church is all through Revelation well past chapter 6. They are persecuted and killed in the Great Tribulation and only those who survive it are raptured and even those are not raptured to the 34d heaven, but only as high as the clouds which is the first heaven. They are only there to meet with Christ and follow him as he descends in the second coming.
 

Truth7t7

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there is no church on earth after chapter 6 of Revelations John sees us all in heaven the great multitude which cannot be numbered, "these are they who have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Thereafter we see the now converted Jews.

The reason people find Revelations so difficult, you can't hardly get 2 christians to agree on it's interpretation, is because it does not apply to the church after the early chapters.
The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:25-28KJV

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh
 

Truth7t7

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Tribulation yes, God's wrath never. After ch 6 the church is in heave, in chapter 22 the new Jerusalem which is the church comes down from heaven.
Eternal (New Jerusalem) is the Holy City, the Tabernacle of God, not the Church as you claim.

The Eternal City New Jerusalem Has Foundations, Walls, And Gates

Revelation 21:1-27KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
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The church is not mentioned after chapter 6 where they are in heaven.
That is why I feel people should use the term "Body of Christ", instead the word church.

They are not equivalent terms
 

ewq1938

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That is why I feel people should use the term "Body of Christ", instead the word church.

They are not equivalent terms
They are equivalent terms.


The first believers, the first Body of Christ, the first to compose "The Church" and the first to become Christ's Bride were the 12 disciples who were Jewish. Gentiles were later allowed to join the Church/body of Christ and become His Bride.



1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.