"LGBT RIGHTS"
- Thread starter laura_charlotte
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
V
I have to say that you seem to be a bright-minded person. You behave in a way that seems right in you own mind. I understand that and can relate to it.
Forgive me for saying this, I don't mean this as an insult, you seem more like a thoughtful sociologist than you do a theologian. Perhaps a study on comparative religion would be of more benefit to you, rather than wrestling with the dang Christians over their spiritual convictions that don't make sense to you. I know a brilliant, once agnostic, lady who did just that when she was in her senior year of high school. She met God one day, albeit some years later. She argues very much like you do. She has, what I call, "an over-developed sense of justice". I met her in my thirties.
That 'lady' is my wife.
If you believe in a Creator-God I want want to encourage you to diligently seek Him. I used to believe in "The Force". I used to think I was an Intellectual. Now, I take pleasure in not knowing everything. It all way bigger than me!
Oh, and be careful not to let your intellect get in the way. I can see that you're not stupid.
Good Journey!
Forgive me for saying this, I don't mean this as an insult, you seem more like a thoughtful sociologist than you do a theologian. Perhaps a study on comparative religion would be of more benefit to you, rather than wrestling with the dang Christians over their spiritual convictions that don't make sense to you. I know a brilliant, once agnostic, lady who did just that when she was in her senior year of high school. She met God one day, albeit some years later. She argues very much like you do. She has, what I call, "an over-developed sense of justice". I met her in my thirties.
That 'lady' is my wife.
If you believe in a Creator-God I want want to encourage you to diligently seek Him. I used to believe in "The Force". I used to think I was an Intellectual. Now, I take pleasure in not knowing everything. It all way bigger than me!
Oh, and be careful not to let your intellect get in the way. I can see that you're not stupid.
Good Journey!
I have to say that you seem to be a bright-minded person. You behave in a way that seems right in you own mind. I understand that and can relate to it.
Forgive me for saying this, I don't mean this as an insult, you seem more like a thoughtful sociologist than you do a theologian. Perhaps a study on comparative religion would be of more benefit to you, rather than wrestling with the dang Christians over their spiritual convictions that don't make sense to you. I know a brilliant, once agnostic, lady who did just that when she was in her senior year of high school. She met God one day, albeit some years later. She argues very much like you do. She has, what I call, "an over-developed sense of justice". I met her in my thirties.
That 'lady' is my wife.
If you believe in a Creator-God I want want to encourage you to diligently seek Him. I used to believe in "The Force". I used to think I was an Intellectual. Now, I take pleasure in not knowing everything. It all way bigger than me!
Oh, and be careful not to let your intellect get in the way. I can see that you're not stupid.
Good Journey!
Forgive me for saying this, I don't mean this as an insult, you seem more like a thoughtful sociologist than you do a theologian. Perhaps a study on comparative religion would be of more benefit to you, rather than wrestling with the dang Christians over their spiritual convictions that don't make sense to you. I know a brilliant, once agnostic, lady who did just that when she was in her senior year of high school. She met God one day, albeit some years later. She argues very much like you do. She has, what I call, "an over-developed sense of justice". I met her in my thirties.
That 'lady' is my wife.
If you believe in a Creator-God I want want to encourage you to diligently seek Him. I used to believe in "The Force". I used to think I was an Intellectual. Now, I take pleasure in not knowing everything. It all way bigger than me!
Oh, and be careful not to let your intellect get in the way. I can see that you're not stupid.
Good Journey!
Well kudos to you. I know myself fairly well, and I'm sure that you have your work cut out for you!! lol still, we all need to be challenged and I wish you and your wife all the best, sincerely.
Thank you for the encouragement and kind words
Part of the problem with christianity is that its not cut and dry. You can go into a very "tight" small group of house church christians and even them will have severe differences in beliefs. Nobody can agree on anything, everyone has a different view point and they all read the same book.
IMO the church is so upside down its going to fall on its head soon with all of the churches closing, less and less people are joining any sort of religious group and on top of that, the icing on the cake, nearly all of the christians today do not even read the bible, they do not take it seriously and no way in the world do they believe in the oppression of people because they have a different way of life. Discrimination is a serious issue and keeping up on this will mean more serious forms of punishment in the future, teaching another generation to be scared of homosexuals is not going to work.
IMO the church is so upside down its going to fall on its head soon with all of the churches closing, less and less people are joining any sort of religious group and on top of that, the icing on the cake, nearly all of the christians today do not even read the bible, they do not take it seriously and no way in the world do they believe in the oppression of people because they have a different way of life. Discrimination is a serious issue and keeping up on this will mean more serious forms of punishment in the future, teaching another generation to be scared of homosexuals is not going to work.
V
Lol that made me laugh. 'That person is my wife'.
Well kudos to you. I know myself fairly well, and I'm sure that you have your work cut out for you!! lol still, we all need to be challenged and I wish you and your wife all the best, sincerely.
Thank you for the encouragement and kind words
Well kudos to you. I know myself fairly well, and I'm sure that you have your work cut out for you!! lol still, we all need to be challenged and I wish you and your wife all the best, sincerely.
Thank you for the encouragement and kind words
Me? I'm just a "redneck" from central Texas. Not stupid. But not all that bright either. But, my wife confided to me after we married that I was one of the few people she had ever met that was able to comprehend her. That's why, at the age of 38, she had never married and wound up being a hermit on her little farm in Texas. When I met her I was immediately captivated. To me, she was an enigma wrapped in a mystery. An anomaly.
No regrets at all. For me, it was "Devine Intervention" that placed us together. It's a long story.... But trust me, it is "illogical" that the 2 of us would even have discourse, must less marry.
Thanks for being opening up to us.
A
If you will imprison a man and bankrupt him and his family over a batch of cookies: you are a tyrant (e.g. a cruel and oppressive ruler).
That aside, the baker is not refusing to sell his product to a person. The baker is refusing to indirectly support a sexually immoral activity (e.g. homosexual "wedding") and organizations whose purpose is to propagate sexually immoral behaviors. It could be a NAMBLA chapter meeting, a beastology PAC, a sadomasochist snuff group.
The baker would happily sell the homosexuals any of his goods and services for any moral reason.
And it should be noted that the immoral people and their organizations want to imprison the baker with rapists, murderers, violent criminals, turn him into a life long felon, and bankrupt his family for nothing more than they didn't get a cookie when a host of other options were at their disposal. That IS tyranny.
Contrast that with the baker didn't want to DO anything to anyone. He just didn't want to support sexual immorality.
Christians, as a rule, follow the love the sinner hate the sin philosophy toward homosexuals today. Zero executions and no imprisonment. Your false assertion is disturbing because of its very nature. Your position is that it's OK to imprison and bankrupt every religious person in the U.S. over a cookie in the same breath that you assert it's not OK to do the same to immoral people. The hypocrisy and tyranny are obvious.
You're perspective is completely blown. Totally. A strong analogy would be the baker doesn't want to bake for an organization that promotes prostitution or homosexuality in the town he lives in. He's more than happy to bake for people; however, whether they be prostitutes or homosexuals.
That's a strong analogy as opposed to your faulty ones. You never knew the difference and when I explained it, you simply made a false assertion, went into denial, and advocated for the imprisonment and bankruptcy of every religious person in America if they don't indirectly support organizations constructed around the promotion of immoral behaviors and immoral activities.
It's tragic to see the rise of tyrants, such as yourself, as commonplace in America working to create an environment of persecution madness of the type that once existed in the Soviet Union.
That aside, the baker is not refusing to sell his product to a person. The baker is refusing to indirectly support a sexually immoral activity (e.g. homosexual "wedding") and organizations whose purpose is to propagate sexually immoral behaviors. It could be a NAMBLA chapter meeting, a beastology PAC, a sadomasochist snuff group.
The baker would happily sell the homosexuals any of his goods and services for any moral reason.
And it should be noted that the immoral people and their organizations want to imprison the baker with rapists, murderers, violent criminals, turn him into a life long felon, and bankrupt his family for nothing more than they didn't get a cookie when a host of other options were at their disposal. That IS tyranny.
Contrast that with the baker didn't want to DO anything to anyone. He just didn't want to support sexual immorality.
Christians, as a rule, follow the love the sinner hate the sin philosophy toward homosexuals today. Zero executions and no imprisonment. Your false assertion is disturbing because of its very nature. Your position is that it's OK to imprison and bankrupt every religious person in the U.S. over a cookie in the same breath that you assert it's not OK to do the same to immoral people. The hypocrisy and tyranny are obvious.
You're perspective is completely blown. Totally. A strong analogy would be the baker doesn't want to bake for an organization that promotes prostitution or homosexuality in the town he lives in. He's more than happy to bake for people; however, whether they be prostitutes or homosexuals.
That's a strong analogy as opposed to your faulty ones. You never knew the difference and when I explained it, you simply made a false assertion, went into denial, and advocated for the imprisonment and bankruptcy of every religious person in America if they don't indirectly support organizations constructed around the promotion of immoral behaviors and immoral activities.
It's tragic to see the rise of tyrants, such as yourself, as commonplace in America working to create an environment of persecution madness of the type that once existed in the Soviet Union.
You've got a victim mentality as bad as the people you're trying to victimize. See how that works?
Oh please. If you're gonna harp on at me about tyranny and oppression just look at the history of the nicely rounded religious label you like to say is victimized. There's no reason for a business owner to go to jail over something so petty anyway, and I never advocated he or she should. The government shouldn't be so silly as to paint a black and white picture but neither should a christian (or anyone for that matter) be so silly as to open a business in a free market economy under secular law and then disobey the rules of business.
Christians like to use the logic that the person who makes the decision to sin and disobey God's law sends themselves to hell, so on that premise, I will use the logic that the person who decides to open a business up and then doesn't obey the laws governing it, sends themselves to prison.
However, that doesn't mean that I agree that the person should be sent to prison, either. BUt perhaps people need to take this into account.
Jesus words, not mine;
'let him who has wealth beget power, and him who begets power denounce it'.
Proverbs
Be not one of those who give pledges, who put up security for debts
Galatians
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified
If you don't want to run a business by a country's rules, don't enter into business, AgeOfKnowledge. It should be common sense to a christian that man made contracts don't mix with God-given covenants. And a person can't serve two conflicting purposes.
The Soviet Union was run by a man who would kill gays. The soviet union was run by a man who called his propaganda magazine 'pravda' (russian and polish for 'truth') and used it to incite all sorts of hatred.
The US is a country of free speech, where a homosexuals rights to buy consumer products are upheld just as stringently as a Christians. This is the point. EQUAL RIGHTS. If a christian walked into a shop and said 'I'd like some buns to bring to church' and the muslim owner said 'no, your'e a christian, get out', then there'd be outrage. So just rightly so that the homosexual person in question here has the same rights, and there has been outrage.
Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be defending your right to buy whatever you like.
Oh please. If you're gonna harp on at me about tyranny and oppression just look at the history of the nicely rounded religious label you like to say is victimized. There's no reason for a business owner to go to jail over something so petty anyway, and I never advocated he or she should. The government shouldn't be so silly as to paint a black and white picture but neither should a christian (or anyone for that matter) be so silly as to open a business in a free market economy under secular law and then disobey the rules of business.
Christians like to use the logic that the person who makes the decision to sin and disobey God's law sends themselves to hell, so on that premise, I will use the logic that the person who decides to open a business up and then doesn't obey the laws governing it, sends themselves to prison.
However, that doesn't mean that I agree that the person should be sent to prison, either. BUt perhaps people need to take this into account.
Jesus words, not mine;
'let him who has wealth beget power, and him who begets power denounce it'.
Proverbs
Be not one of those who give pledges, who put up security for debts
Galatians
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified
If you don't want to run a business by a country's rules, don't enter into business, AgeOfKnowledge. It should be common sense to a christian that man made contracts don't mix with God-given covenants. And a person can't serve two conflicting purposes.
The Soviet Union was run by a man who would kill gays. The soviet union was run by a man who called his propaganda magazine 'pravda' (russian and polish for 'truth') and used it to incite all sorts of hatred.
The US is a country of free speech, where a homosexuals rights to buy consumer products are upheld just as stringently as a Christians. This is the point. EQUAL RIGHTS. If a christian walked into a shop and said 'I'd like some buns to bring to church' and the muslim owner said 'no, your'e a christian, get out', then there'd be outrage. So just rightly so that the homosexual person in question here has the same rights, and there has been outrage.
Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be defending your right to buy whatever you like.
Last edited:
V
No! As I have stated before, we ALL have rights! And YOU don't have the right to make me sell something that I don't want to sell you. Regardless of the "law". It's not "right".
It doesn't matter WHY I don't want to sell. The point is, it is either my property or not. If it IS my property I have the right to keep it or sell. Don't you think I have that choice?
Of course there IS that contracts thing I talked about earlier.
It doesn't matter WHY I don't want to sell. The point is, it is either my property or not. If it IS my property I have the right to keep it or sell. Don't you think I have that choice?
Of course there IS that contracts thing I talked about earlier.
Yes, you do when we're talking about private property. But business property doesn't inherently work that way. Think about it Veritas. If you open a business, and you actually do your research and read business law (which, really, any savvy business owner should do to avoid lawsuits) you'd see that if you open a retail chain, or a shop, anybody, of any creed, colour or religion or sexual preference or whatever they are, is legally allowed to buy from your shop. Since what you offer is a service, and you don't have the legal right to disallow that service because of reasons of race, creed, colour, gender, or sexual preference.
The same way a gay person can't deny you service because you're white, middle aged, american or christian.
If every christian business owner in the country denied homosexuals, they'd have a really, really, really, really hard time finding food, water and clothing to be honest.
250 million Christians in America and the whole population is what 313 million? This is why the constitution is a good thing. If the majority ever become atheists, you'll still maintain the rights of a minority group, like LGBT, muslims and the current minorities do.
The same way a gay person can't deny you service because you're white, middle aged, american or christian.
If every christian business owner in the country denied homosexuals, they'd have a really, really, really, really hard time finding food, water and clothing to be honest.
250 million Christians in America and the whole population is what 313 million? This is why the constitution is a good thing. If the majority ever become atheists, you'll still maintain the rights of a minority group, like LGBT, muslims and the current minorities do.
Last edited:
S
And it shouldn't matter. But when a person says he's not selling because _______, then he's made it matter.
Anybody, anywhere, can turn anyway nearly anybody because of any personal prejudice and get away with it. There's no way that can be policed, except in some very few cases where careful records are kept to ensure there's no systematic bias. Bakers aren't one of these.
But you don't have the right to refuse business with protected classes and then make a thing of it and even advocate it. If you refuse to sell and somebody asks why, you really are under no obligation to answer. But the moment you do, it's no longer about just the transaction.
Anybody, anywhere, can turn anyway nearly anybody because of any personal prejudice and get away with it. There's no way that can be policed, except in some very few cases where careful records are kept to ensure there's no systematic bias. Bakers aren't one of these.
But you don't have the right to refuse business with protected classes and then make a thing of it and even advocate it. If you refuse to sell and somebody asks why, you really are under no obligation to answer. But the moment you do, it's no longer about just the transaction.
V
Okay, lets get into words... Because a thing is "legal" doesn't make it "lawful". There are many regulations on the books that are in reality unlawful.
And I never said I was a Christian. Just so you understand, I am a follower of Yeshua Messiah.
The "legal system" in this country is weird. I can be kicked out of a bar/pub for being too loud. Take the owner to court and sue for damaging my ability to have a good time! (I was just trying to have fun your honor and these mean, grumpy people just threw me out on the curb!) Who knows, I might win the case. And then that sets what they call "precedent".
See?
And I never said I was a Christian. Just so you understand, I am a follower of Yeshua Messiah.
The "legal system" in this country is weird. I can be kicked out of a bar/pub for being too loud. Take the owner to court and sue for damaging my ability to have a good time! (I was just trying to have fun your honor and these mean, grumpy people just threw me out on the curb!) Who knows, I might win the case. And then that sets what they call "precedent".
See?
Yes I understand. And I agree, to some extent. Secular law isn't perfect. Neither is a lot of peoples' perceptions of holy law, for what it's worth.
But all I'm saying is you can buy from any shop as long as you are curteous and non-violent. There are reasons to be thrown out; violence, abuse, discrimination. You know, the usual things. But you have rights to be able to buy things for yourself and your family or whomever else you please; produce, clothing, services. That means you don't go hungry, cold or unclothed.
This is important because it doesn't allow boycotting of religious groups, social groups or any minorities or particular demographics. It's important as a basic human right; to be able to buy goods freely.
But all I'm saying is you can buy from any shop as long as you are curteous and non-violent. There are reasons to be thrown out; violence, abuse, discrimination. You know, the usual things. But you have rights to be able to buy things for yourself and your family or whomever else you please; produce, clothing, services. That means you don't go hungry, cold or unclothed.
This is important because it doesn't allow boycotting of religious groups, social groups or any minorities or particular demographics. It's important as a basic human right; to be able to buy goods freely.
A
No. You are, once again, making false assertions based on fallacious reasoning. Interestingly, this false assertion aligns perfectly with your tyrannical behavior.
In order for a "victim mentality" to exist in the way you mean it, there has to be an absence of clear evidence to support the claim of victimization.
For example, to assert that Jews persecuted in the Holocaust had a "victim mentality" (which may be true in a positive sense) in an abusive way is fallacious and nothing more than a personal attack simply because there is evidence to support their claim of victimization. See how this works?
Currently people who choose to engage in homosexual behavior (e.g. homosexuals) have targeted numerous moral bakers in the U.S. for prison and bankruptcy (as I previously explained in this thread) as part of a wider strategy to obtain legal precedent to use government power to force all moral Americans to violate their moral and religious convictions in the way that I've already described to you or be imprisoned and pushed into bankruptcy from the hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and legal costs which are presently associated with every legal case of this nature currently in progress.
The legal cases themselves are the evidence hence, there is no absence of evidence that this is occurring making your assertion nothing more than a personal attack on the very people you are seeking to victimize which is, of course, simply another thread in your tyrannous fabric. It's not enough to victimize moral people, you have to personally attack them too.
I find it interesting that tyrants always try to leverage the law as their justification for engaging in tyranny. If the government passes a law to execute everyone with a nickname of Jhana, are they morally justified to do it? Of course not! Tyrannical laws only give tyrants cover to do their dirty work. They are not just laws in themselves and should be immediately repealed and those who used them to engage in tyranny brought to justice.
Neither do two rights make a wrong. This isn't algebra where two negatives equal a positive. You support tyranny against moral people but state that you will align against tyranny against immoral people. This only makes you a hypocrite and a tyrant against moral people.
I don't support tyranny from the left or right. I didn't like it when the old right engaged in it and I don't like it now that the new left is engaging in it. I support liberty and that means a pluralism which allows both immoral consenting adult homosexuals and moral Christians to each have their liberty.. as you should in a country founded on the idea of it you tyrant.
By the way, I have an M.Div. and your misuse of scripture to support the tyranny under discussion is both fallacious and pharisaical.
In order for a "victim mentality" to exist in the way you mean it, there has to be an absence of clear evidence to support the claim of victimization.
For example, to assert that Jews persecuted in the Holocaust had a "victim mentality" (which may be true in a positive sense) in an abusive way is fallacious and nothing more than a personal attack simply because there is evidence to support their claim of victimization. See how this works?
Currently people who choose to engage in homosexual behavior (e.g. homosexuals) have targeted numerous moral bakers in the U.S. for prison and bankruptcy (as I previously explained in this thread) as part of a wider strategy to obtain legal precedent to use government power to force all moral Americans to violate their moral and religious convictions in the way that I've already described to you or be imprisoned and pushed into bankruptcy from the hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and legal costs which are presently associated with every legal case of this nature currently in progress.
The legal cases themselves are the evidence hence, there is no absence of evidence that this is occurring making your assertion nothing more than a personal attack on the very people you are seeking to victimize which is, of course, simply another thread in your tyrannous fabric. It's not enough to victimize moral people, you have to personally attack them too.
I find it interesting that tyrants always try to leverage the law as their justification for engaging in tyranny. If the government passes a law to execute everyone with a nickname of Jhana, are they morally justified to do it? Of course not! Tyrannical laws only give tyrants cover to do their dirty work. They are not just laws in themselves and should be immediately repealed and those who used them to engage in tyranny brought to justice.
Neither do two rights make a wrong. This isn't algebra where two negatives equal a positive. You support tyranny against moral people but state that you will align against tyranny against immoral people. This only makes you a hypocrite and a tyrant against moral people.
I don't support tyranny from the left or right. I didn't like it when the old right engaged in it and I don't like it now that the new left is engaging in it. I support liberty and that means a pluralism which allows both immoral consenting adult homosexuals and moral Christians to each have their liberty.. as you should in a country founded on the idea of it you tyrant.
By the way, I have an M.Div. and your misuse of scripture to support the tyranny under discussion is both fallacious and pharisaical.
V
Being in the parts business, I know that I cannot always buy product from whomever I wish. Manufacturers do not have to sell their product to me just because I want to buy. They have internal rules dictating that they only sell to authorized distributors. That sometimes makes me feel angry because it's my job to save my company money and that often means going to the source of a product. But if they will not sell to me, too bad. I have to get over it and move on to the next supplier.
Ultimately, the puny amount of justice meted out is in the hands of puny people based on their puny understandings.
You said, "But you have rights to be able to buy things for yourself and your family or whomever else you please; produce, clothing, services. That means you don't go hungry, cold or unclothed."
Unfortunately, this is not true jhana, even if you have the wherewith all to buy, the seller is not required to sell, except in a dictatorship or you into a contract. But, people do break the rules if they feel they are un-lawful...if they feel led to do so. This is one of the areas where Elohim/God works. The hearts of the people.
One of the things that boggles my mind is the separation of races of people. That because a person looks different is a cause to mistrust or feel better than. Much of this seems to be inherent. Personally I love the differences between cultures. The cuisine for example. It's nice to try other things. Colors. Accents. Etc. People are people.
What I want you to try and understand about those of us who try to follow Scripture is that most of us did not come to this place easily. We are bound to serve our Creator and that means we try to obey His Laws/Torah. We are under His authority and freely choose to obey Scripture. Often, we do not fall in line with what you called "secular law". And, understandably this baffles the secularist's mind.
Know this, there will be judgement. And justice will be served up. I will be on my face, because I know I am unworthy.
I realize this may sound odd to you...but I am fully convinced that Yehovah is the Creator of this universe and is the author of all life. Could I tell you how this happened? Yes...but that is a face-to-face thing. And we are dealing with the draw-backs of the internet.
Again, I wish you good journey.
Peace
Ultimately, the puny amount of justice meted out is in the hands of puny people based on their puny understandings.
You said, "But you have rights to be able to buy things for yourself and your family or whomever else you please; produce, clothing, services. That means you don't go hungry, cold or unclothed."
Unfortunately, this is not true jhana, even if you have the wherewith all to buy, the seller is not required to sell, except in a dictatorship or you into a contract. But, people do break the rules if they feel they are un-lawful...if they feel led to do so. This is one of the areas where Elohim/God works. The hearts of the people.
One of the things that boggles my mind is the separation of races of people. That because a person looks different is a cause to mistrust or feel better than. Much of this seems to be inherent. Personally I love the differences between cultures. The cuisine for example. It's nice to try other things. Colors. Accents. Etc. People are people.
What I want you to try and understand about those of us who try to follow Scripture is that most of us did not come to this place easily. We are bound to serve our Creator and that means we try to obey His Laws/Torah. We are under His authority and freely choose to obey Scripture. Often, we do not fall in line with what you called "secular law". And, understandably this baffles the secularist's mind.
Know this, there will be judgement. And justice will be served up. I will be on my face, because I know I am unworthy.
I realize this may sound odd to you...but I am fully convinced that Yehovah is the Creator of this universe and is the author of all life. Could I tell you how this happened? Yes...but that is a face-to-face thing. And we are dealing with the draw-backs of the internet.
Again, I wish you good journey.
Peace
A
Tell it to the bakers whose lives have been torn apart and are facing prison and bankruptcy court and whose customers and vendors have been harassed by homosexual extremists with even death threats made against their children over nothing more than refusing to violate their conscience and support an immoral act or the propagation of immorality in their community around a cake or a batch of cookies. Tell it to them friend. While you're at it, send them a donation. I have. Have you?