Life of Worship

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#1
Music-Math.jpg


“May not music be described as the mathematics of the sense, mathematics as music of the reason? The musician feels mathematics, the mathematician thinks music: music the dream, mathematics the working life.”
-James Joseph Sylvester

Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe
-Galileo Galilei

"It is God who gives us the spirit of worship (Psalm 133:3), and it is what we know of God that produces this spirit of worship. We might say that worship is simply theology, doctrine, what we think about God, going into top gear! Instead of merely thinking about Him, we tell Him, in prayer and praise and song, how great and glorious we believe Him to be!"
- Sinclair B. Ferguson

Music and mathematics are a universal language given to us by the creator of the universe. We discovered the pleasant harmonics, rhythms, beats, and melodies that when connected to the right pitch, string length, width of string, shape of instrument, frequencies, the atmosphere, the ear, and many other technical variables causes us to hear the harmonic language of the universe.

It connects and alters us emotionally, physically, and spiritually. Music can cheer us up, make us sad, amp us up during a workout, or unite us as a national anthem.

It physically affects our brains and has been proven to therapeutically heal different functions within the brain. This is why playing Beethoven to a child in the womb, having music classes in school, and giving iPods to the elderly has shown to help with different brain functions in both hemispheres of the brain including language, memory, coordination, and cognitive understanding. Music has been proven to help release Dopamine which is one of our feel good chemicals within the brain.

Spiritually our souls are wired to be amplified, live loudly and express boldly the joyfulness of our relationship with the Creator.

Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.
Psalm 150:6 NIV

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24 NIV

We are spiritually connected to acknowledge the music of creation that compliments God.

Sing to God, sing in praise of his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds;
rejoice before him — his name is the Lord.
A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.
Psalm 68:4-5 NIV

When we experience God or see the majesty of His presence, we are moved within to rejoice. Scripture is filled with those who broke down in song or dance. Worship should be a experience that moves us emotionally, physically, and spiritually. A worshiper is often flooded with emotions, physically affected, and a spiritual hunger for more.

If we are singing with no joy or recollection of the words then what are we doing? Maybe it is because we do not fully understand worship or see its importance? As music is connected to memory, we are obediently realigning our minds, body and soul to God.

It has also been shown that good music increases blood flow within the heart. Life is largely dependent on the heart. As we realign with God it reminds us we are solely dependent on God for life both physically and spiritually.

One of the very first examples of worship was seen in Exodus 15 as the Israelites escaped Pharaohs army by walking through the Red Sea. A wall of water on each side and the floor completely dry. As they reached the other side, God consumed the army of Pharaoh as the waters was released. Pharoah and his army was completely destroyed. The Israelites immediately recognized the glory and strength of God by song and dance.

Exodus 15 NIV
15 Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord:

“I will sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.
2 “The Lord is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.

20 Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them:

“Sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.”

Is your worship alive or dead?
Is our modern churches failing to see the majesty of God as to why worship often seems emotionally, physically or spiritually lacking? Or have we religiously created a habit as a individual that no longer has the feeling it once had?

This isnt picking on the choir or bands but is looking at the individual. You can have a awesome band but the worship of the body be extremely weak. Nor is this to say we have to worship a certain way. It brings it down to the heart of the matter. Why are you worshipping?

The answer to why should provide a honest examination of does your worship bring glory and honor to God?

Worship should always point back to God. The Words of the song should always honor God and remind the people of the glory of God.

Romans 12:1-2 NIV:
“I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable, or well pleasing and perfect.”

Worship as explained in Romans should be a whole body experience that involves the renewing or realigning of the mind with God's will and to honor the characteristics of God.

created_to_worship_graphic.jpg

A early secular source outside of scripture spoke on the habits of early Christians. Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111-113 A.D.

Pliny sent a letter to Emperor Trajan about his (Pliny's) rulings on forcing the Christians to denounce and curse Christ or face execution. Here below is a excerpt from the letter and Pliny explaining the rumors.

"they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so."

New Testament motivation to worship within the early church is also found in
Ephesians 5:18-20 NIV
18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our modern churches have been carrying the same practices throughout the centuries. But we must be cautious not to turn worship into a idol as the lights and music become the center of our message. Or the idol of self dampens or mutes the purpose of worship.

Matthew 23:27-28 provides a warning to the hypocritical worship that on the outside looks beautiful and righteous but on the inside the individual is dead, hypocritical, or wicked. In right place but for the wrong reasons.

Matthew 23:27-28 NIV
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Do not be like this. In the right place for the wrong reasons. Be alive in Christ. Rejoice in the grace and mercy of God. Understand the beauty of worship, song, dance and how the arts compliment the creator. Seeing how the music dances to the mathematical language of the universe. Hear and feel the words as if they are your own heart cry to the Lord. Respond with joy or even in humble repentance as worship can stir the soul.

Discussion questions:

1. What was your idea of worship before this thread? Has it changed after reading this thread?

2. In what ways can you improve individually your worship?

3. What is your favorite style of worship or how do you worship?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
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#2
I will also be updating this as I am currently doing more research and waiting on a book to arrive at the library.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,528
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#3
1. If prayer is pouring your soul out before God, in comparison worship is to me more like pouring your whole self before God or losing yourself in God's presence. I think I still see worship the same way, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.

2. I believe we don't worship of ourselves but Holy Spirit stirs us up for worship and while offerings sometimes may be technically improved skill wise (music, etc. I always like learning new techniques to make more interesting music), to God it's the spirit that matters. I'd want to avoid being contrived. But it's been on my mind that it would be very good to get into the habit of contemplation during mundane activities ("be still and know that I am God").

3. Singing just what comes to me in spirit... Being still before God outdoors, just enjoying the silence working outside or observing nature... Watching Biblical movies or listening to music and sitting with what Jesus did for us...
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
389
386
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#4
1. If prayer is pouring your soul out before God, in comparison worship is to me more like pouring your whole self before God or losing yourself in God's presence. I think I still see worship the same way, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.

2. I believe we don't worship of ourselves but Holy Spirit stirs us up for worship and while offerings sometimes may be technically improved skill wise (music, etc. I always like learning new techniques to make more interesting music), to God it's the spirit that matters. I'd want to avoid being contrived. But it's been on my mind that it would be very good to get into the habit of contemplation during mundane activities ("be still and know that I am God").

3. Singing just what comes to me in spirit... Being still before God outdoors, just enjoying the silence working outside or observing nature... Watching Biblical movies or listening to music and sitting with what Jesus did for us...
Good comment.
- I agree with your perspective / point... 'what worship is.'
---
About outdoors / nature.
- That has been my experience, too.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
34,271
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66
Tennessee
#5
Mathematics is indeed the language that God used to write the universe.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
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#6
I was also reading this which is also quite interesting.

"The most satisfactory system is that based upon the law of the octave. The sense of hearing has a much wider scope than that of sight, for whereas the ear can register from nine to eleven octaves of sound the eye is restricted to the cognition of but seven fundamental color tones, or one tone short of the octave. Red, when posited as the lowest color tone in the scale of chromatics, thus corresponds to do, the first note of the musical scale. Continuing the analogy, orange corresponds to re, yellow to mi, green to fa, blue to sol, indigo to la, and violet to si (ti). The eighth color tone necessary to complete the scale should be the higher octave of red, the first color tone. The accuracy of the above arrangement is attested by two striking facts: (1) the three fundamental notes of the musical scale--the first, the third, and the fifth--correspond with the three primary colors--red, yellow, and blue; (2) the seventh, and least perfect, note of the musical scale corresponds with purple, the least perfect tone of the color scale.

In The Principles of Light and Color, Edwin D. Babbitt confirms the correspondence of the color and musical scales: "As C is at the bottom of the musical scale and made with the coarsest waves of air, so is red at the bottom of the chromatic scale and made with the coarsest waves of luminous ether. As the musical note B [the seventh note of the scale] requires 45 vibrations of air every time the note C at the lower end of the scale requires 24, or but little over half as many, so does extreme violet require about 300 trillions of vibrations of ether in a second, while extreme red requires only about 450 trillions, which also are but little more than half as many. When one musical octave is finished another one commences and progresses with just twice as many vibrations as were used in the first octave, and so the same notes are repeated on a finer scale. In the same way when the scale of colors visible to the ordinary eye is completed in the violet, another octave of finer invisible colors, with just twice as many vibrations, will commence and progress on precisely the same law."

Math, music, and color seems to have very similar qualities but it perceived the differently as the eye and ear filter the frequencies or waves. Check out the videos below.



 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,227
1,742
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#7
I mean just wow... Like I just can't,there are no words. The depth of your understanding is beyond amazing, I knew you were wise and insightful and I have been begging for you to be a teacher but I had no idea it was to this degree.
I have been pondering the exact same things, not to this kind of degree and depth mind you but this exact same thing, I mean I came to this thread just after getting out of the shower where I tend to talk outloud to God and I was just talking to him about this very same stuff and then I read this an am like what!?
And the depth and structure in which you put it and how you so well put it in perspective is just astonishing.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
3,034
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#8
I mean just wow... Like I just can't,there are no words. The depth of your understanding is beyond amazing, I knew you were wise and insightful and I have been begging for you to be a teacher but I had no idea it was to this degree.
I have been pondering the exact same things, not to this kind of degree and depth mind you but this exact same thing, I mean I came to this thread just after getting out of the shower where I tend to talk outloud to God and I was just talking to him about this very same stuff and then I read this an am like what!?
And the depth and structure in which you put it and how you so well put it in perspective is just astonishing.
I cannot take that much credit. Just sharing what I was led to. It had only scratched the surface especially in the realm of music aesthetics. It is actually a fairly unknown field of study. But the connections to God and creation is amazing.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,323
3,018
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#9
God's mathematics transcends our finite knowing (think Trinity/think eternal), yet His music invades the core of our very being.
 
Dec 30, 2019
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#11
“May not music be described as the mathematics of the sense, mathematics as music of the reason?
Yes, my son is working on a degree in computer engineering with a minor in math. Also he marches in the band so he has studied music from the 5th grade. He was trying to understand something in math and I used something in music as an illustration and then he understood what it was all about. He is more into formulas and I am more into theories and concepts.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
3,034
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#12
Yes, my son is working on a degree in computer engineering with a minor in math. Also he marches in the band so he has studied music from the 5th grade. He was trying to understand something in math and I used something in music as an illustration and then he understood what it was all about. He is more into formulas and I am more into theories and concepts.
I even found out some music teachers are now using color to teach music. I didn't buy the course but still a cool concept.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,643
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#13
I’m conflicted. Should I unleash my voice in the congregation even though my tone is several octaves below those around me...throwing them off key? Or, do I contain my volume in public out of respect for others and sing with my heart allowing my spirit to reach the heavens? I usually get to express my full amplitude in the car....hands on wheel, not lifted. This question is semi-serious because my voice is very similar to Mark Hall and Mac Powell.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,323
3,018
113
#14
I’m conflicted. Should I unleash my voice in the congregation even though my tone is several octaves below those around me...throwing them off key? Or, do I contain my volume in public out of respect for others and sing with my heart allowing my spirit to reach the heavens? I usually get to express my full amplitude in the car....hands on wheel, not lifted. This question is semi-serious because my voice is very similar to Mark Hall and Mac Powell.
I have the same problem, I tried out for choir in the 6th grade (in prep for 7th grade) and the music examiner had me repeat my effort three times, then fully exasperated, kicked me out and claimed I was only trying to ditch class. That was the beginning and end of my singing career. Subsequently, I went on to learn the trumpet. (I always loved music though lol).
 
Dec 30, 2019
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#15
I even found out some music teachers are now using color to teach music.
I studied technical theater in College. I worked on the lighting crew so I know about the physics of light and color. Both light and music is a wave. It is interesting when you use music to control the light frequency. The law of attraction people talk about frequency. The Kaballah and quantum physics people talk about this. Not just classic physics. We used the additive and the subtractive color theory.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
3,034
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#16
I studied technical theater in College. I worked on the lighting crew so I know about the physics of light and color. Both light and music is a wave. It is interesting when you use music to control the light frequency. The law of attraction people talk about frequency. The Kaballah and quantum physics people talk about this. Not just classic physics. We used the additive and the subtractive color theory.
That does sound very interesting. So with related to theology how in your experience do you see the relation between God, music, color, and math?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,227
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#17
You know I have always loved the topic of psychology and the studies of the human mind. something I found very interesting is how colors affect us subconsciously. colors tend to have a general thing linked to them like red as anger aggitation or amped up, yellow like happy innocent joyful blue for calm cool and mellow green for healthy lucky and energetic ect. These terms linked to them are actually how they can affect the mind we don't even realize it but they do. An interesting thing also is that you would think bright colors would be what happy joyful people are attracted to but take me for instance, anyone who meets me almost always sees happy go lucky and a sense of innosence but I love dark colors I love how they look some scientists who have studied how colors affect the mind say that the general thinking of colors relating to happy people or gloomy dark people is usually correct but some like me are an occurance that is actually the opposite and happens less often.

But apparently people who relate to dark colors but have a happy go lucky kind of person are seen by the world as dumb and childlike yet are inwardly secretly smart, while people who love dark colors are ususally pretty obviously smart but inwardly limit themselves by viewing themselves in a darker light.

But tbh I cannot say how valid any of this is it just fascinates me.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,291
3,034
113
#18
You know I have always loved the topic of psychology and the studies of the human mind. something I found very interesting is how colors affect us subconsciously. colors tend to have a general thing linked to them like red as anger aggitation or amped up, yellow like happy innocent joyful blue for calm cool and mellow green for healthy lucky and energetic ect. These terms linked to them are actually how they can affect the mind we don't even realize it but they do. An interesting thing also is that you would think bright colors would be what happy joyful people are attracted to but take me for instance, anyone who meets me almost always sees happy go lucky and a sense of innosence but I love dark colors I love how they look some scientists who have studied how colors affect the mind say that the general thinking of colors relating to happy people or gloomy dark people is usually correct but some like me are an occurance that is actually the opposite and happens less often.

But apparently people who relate to dark colors but have a happy go lucky kind of person are seen by the world as dumb and childlike yet are inwardly secretly smart, while people who love dark colors are ususally pretty obviously smart but inwardly limit themselves by viewing themselves in a darker light.

But tbh I cannot say how valid any of this is it just fascinates me.
Yes there is much truth in this just as the shade of color has effects on emotion so does the shade or tone of a sound. A tone we would call I forget the technical name but a tone that is unharmonizing like you hear in horror movies tends to create anxiety, discomfort or fear. But a harmonic tone can create joy, happiness, or excitement. As to why the great musicians like Beethoven used the whole spectrum to create very very in depth music where the negative and positive tones would mix creating a story within the music. Similar to a soundtrack in a movie.

I typically love dark colors which may possibly be why I love richer music.
 
Dec 30, 2019
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#19
That does sound very interesting. So with related to theology how in your experience do you see the relation between God, music, color, and math?
We see this in Job 38:7 "while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy". Our job is to give thanks, praise, honor and glory to God. The Joy of the Lord is our Strength. The Hebrew letter for mouth also contains the ear within the letter. This is the breath of life. We need positive energy before God. Sometimes people think they are praying when they are really being negative and complaining and God is not happy with that. We are told: "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev 5:8) "For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing." 2 cor 2:15

Back in Genesis 1:3,4 we read: "And God SAID, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God SAW that the light was good" God told Jeremiah in 1:12 "I am watching over my word to perform it". Even we are told that Jesus is the word of God. God declares the end from the beginning. His plan and purpose will be accomplished. We have free will (choice) but God is still going to accomplish His plan and purpose if we are a part of that or not. Said and saw is very important here.

God has impressed upon me many times that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. Even my machinist friends work with a tolerance of a millionth. If we can be that exact and precise all the more God can be. My son is getting a degree in computer engineering but he is also getting a minor in math. He is very good at formulas and I am very good at theory and concept. So this is like a two sided coin. I can give him a theory and he can give me a formula. Which actually proves the theory but it is still considered a theory.

If you want to understand the unconscious part of the brain that regulates all of this maybe take a look at the savants. Like a math savant has a conscious mind that is aware of what is unconscious for most people. For example if you want to play baseball your mind has to do very advanced math very fast to hit a ball, and even to throw and catch a ball. My son programs robotics and they are getting a lot better but it takes a lot of math. You have to crunch a lot of numbers. It is a full time job just to work the bugs out of it. His team at the university actually worked on the robotics to collect a soil sample on other planets. NASA paid them to go to Washington so they could put on a display for congress so they could see how the money they approve for NASA is being spent.
 
Dec 30, 2019
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#20
God, music, color, and math?
Color is in the light and the object absorbs or reflects the light. I theater we use gels to filter the light to obtain the color we want. So we can put a dancer in white and make their costume any color we want though the gels that we use. In photography we photograph the light that is reflected off of an object. I was in Hong Kong and they were filming a movie with only 4 people. They had an actor, actress, cameraman and someone with a round reflector to direct the sunlight to bounce off of the people so the camera could record it. My son prefers a different light bulb. I want something closer to natural sunlight because that is easier for me to see.
 

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