Living on the right side of the cross

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ChristsArmorBearer

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#61
It is crazy to you because that is what you think about repentance. You can't believe in your heart that God declares His righteousness to the believing sinner, by grace, without any repentance of sin. God wants us, as sinners, to focus on Christ and what he did to sin and not on our repentance of sin. Believing in Christ makes me righteous not repenting of sin . The Jews were God's elect and client nation and they rebelled and disobeyed and lived in unbelief and were scattered to every nation. If anyone needs to repent and go back to God from their backslidden state, its the Jews not the Gentiles.

God gave the Jews everything they needed and they rebelled but even in Rom 11:26 God is going to be the one who turns away ungodliness from Jacob and they will be saved. We obtained mercy through their unbelief that we might believe and be saved. And if you read verse 29 in the context of Romans 11 you will see that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That's the gift of grace, the gift of righteousness, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of eternal life and the gift of His Son who called us according to His grace without repentance.

Are you going to take that out of context and go to some commentary that interprets that in some abstract way to suit your belief system?
In other words Shad you are saying that since we have been made righteous by God's grace then there is no longer need for repentence? Do you realize that what you are saying echoes the very sentiment, that because we are God's elect we are somehow exempt from the the scrutiny and judgements of God, the EXACT same sentiment which not only ushered in the Babylonian Exile but also caused the Jewish leadership to stand in oppositon to Christ?
 
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shad

Guest
#62
In other words Shad you are saying that since we have been made righteous by God's grace then there is no longer need for repentence? Do you realize that what you are saying echoes the very sentiment, that because we are God's elect we are somehow exempt from the the scrutiny and judgements of God, the EXACT same sentiment which not only ushered in the Babylonian Exile but also caused the Jewish leadership to stand in oppositon to Christ?
There is a two-fold application involving the gifts and calling of God being without repentance. You and many of those commentators that MS refers to, look at that verse like a tootsie roll thrown in the middle of a bunch of Godiva chocolates. God won't repent or take them back once He has given them through grace and secondly, repentance on my part will not qualify me for God's calling or those gifts that I mentioned. They are given by grace through faith to those who believe upon Christ and the cross. You don't have to repent of sin to get them because they are given by grace through faith and not through the law of repentance. If you had to repent of sin to get them that would be works on your part.

The other aspect of repentance pertaining to the Jew was because of their strict adherence to the law as pertaining to righteousness. They needed to repent of their system of belief that obedience to and work of the law was how they obtained righteousness and favor with God. This work of righteousness according to the law was how they believed they would achieved eternal life and there belief system according to the righteousness of the law excluded grace and mercy and produced much leaven. It was leaven in their thinking that attacked Christ and the disciples for healing and plucking corn on the Sabbath. Christ and the disciples violated their religious system of righteousness according to the law and they got upset and accused them of sin and later on of blasphemy.

Think of this. The law of Moses was set up to offer the blood of bulls and goats for the remission of sins that was to be done every year because it did not make them perfect. When that stopped God raised up John the Baptist with a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. That baptism was for the Jews (not Gentiles) and those that were humble were baptized under John's baptism. And those that were not humble, but religious according to the law, hated John and his followers and said he had a devil / Mt 11:18,19. After John's baptism of repentance ended with his head being cut off, Jesus Christ comes as the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world through the shedding of His perfect blood. The Lamb's blood would make all those that came to Him, through that blood, perfect because all their sin would be put away. No more of the old system, no more of John's baptism of repentance but know it is the blood of Christ and faith in that blood for the complete atonement of sin. Those that believe in that blood are justified without the law and without repentance.

Read Romans chapters 3,4,10 & Galatians chapter 3 & Heb chapter 10

There is a difference between repentance and confessing sin. Repentance involves a turning away from a whole system of thinking and beliefs that involves a form of righteousness or a way of life that comes from the flesh of man and it is for the unbeliever. Confession of sin is when we are convicted of personal sin and we name that sin to God, because Christ paid for that sin and God is faithful and just to forgive that sin and cleanse us from the unrighteousness of it, and it's only for believers who have been been justified by grace and the blood of Christ.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#63
Which part of these verses are not talking about salvation? or non-Jews?

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Act 3:20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit


Would you say that Peter was teaching works by teaching repentance?


 
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shad

Guest
#64
Which part of these verses are not talking about salvation? or non-Jews?

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Act 3:20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit


Would you say that Peter was teaching works by teaching repentance?
Is it so difficult to believe that God can give of His life by grace without any repentance on our part? The cross of Christ is what makes that possible. In Acts 17 Paul is addressing a superstitious group at Mars Hill in Athens that were worshipping the image of a false 'Unknown God'. That was a system of belief that they needed to repent of and turn to the true God that was raised from the dead. He did not mention anything about sin, he was dealing with what they believed. Some mocked him but He got a few converts that cleaved to him in verse 34.

In Acts 3:12-26 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (Jews) who killed the Prince of Life and refused the words of the prophets. They needed to be converted from their sin of ignorance and rebellion because they would not take heed to the prophesy of Moses that spoke of Christ, the one that they should listen to when He comes / verse 22. Peter is dealing with the Jews and their hard hearts of unbelief, ignorance and rebellion and this they needed to repent of so that their sins could be blotted out / verse 19.

In Acts 2:22- 38 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (the Jews) and the house of Israel (verse 36)who had crucified and had slain Jesus of Nazareth, both Lord and Christ. God was so good to them in that speech from Peter. They were pricked in their hearts and responded with a child like faith and (3000) Jews repented of their unbelief concerning Christ and what they had done to Him and were forgiven and remitted of all their sins when they believed and were given the Holy Spirit (and were baptized to boot). The Jews really needed to be baptized, not for the remission of sins but to identify with Christ who they had slain and crucified. God had mercy on them and gave them grace to repent and be forgiven.
 
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ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#65
I see what you're saying however, if Abraham was and still is the Father of our faith, how God determines righteousness is the same now as it was then. While all of the sacrifices were a necessity in the old covenant to achieve forgiveness, let's not forget that each and every sacrifice was nothing more of a symbol, a reflection, a reminder (if you will) to God of that which was to come, and that is Christ crucified. - The initial concepts of Salavation, Faith, Grace and Repentence is no different now as they were then however what has changed is the way we go about seeking them. No longer do we have to sacrifice an animal(s), but because of Christ crucified we can petetion the father personally, through Christ Jesus.

I find your perspective on Grace and repentence, while indeed nobile, I find it to be a bit presumptous. I simply do not see how you have come to this conclussion if indeed scripture is your foundation. I encourage you to include scripture to support your claim. I'm seriously thinking of doing a paper on this issue entittled "Future Grace or Lisence to Sin". Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
 
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ChristsArmorBearer

Guest
#66
Is it so difficult to believe that God can give of His life by grace without any repentance on our part? The cross of Christ is what makes that possible. In Acts 17 Paul is addressing a superstitious group at Mars Hill in Athens that were worshipping the image of a false 'Unknown God'. That was a system of belief that they needed to repent of and turn to the true God that was raised from the dead. He did not mention anything about sin, he was dealing with what they believed. Some mocked him but He got a few converts that cleaved to him in verse 34.

In Acts 3:12-26 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (Jews) who killed the Prince of Life and refused the words of the prophets. They needed to be converted from their sin of ignorance and rebellion because they would not take heed to the prophesy of Moses that spoke of Christ, the one that they should listen to when He comes / verse 22. Peter is dealing with the Jews and their hard hearts of unbelief, ignorance and rebellion and this they needed to repent of so that their sins could be blotted out / verse 19.

In Acts 2:22- 38 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (the Jews) and the house of Israel (verse 36)who had crucified and had slain Jesus of Nazareth, both Lord and Christ. God was so good to them in that speech from Peter. They were pricked in their hearts and responded with a child like faith and (3000) Jews repented of their unbelief concerning Christ and what they had done to Him and were forgiven and remitted of all their sins when they believed and were given the Holy Spirit (and were baptized to boot). The Jews really needed to be baptized, not for the remission of sins but to identify with Christ who they had slain and crucified. God had mercy on them and gave them grace to repent and be forgiven.
I think it's strange how some modern denoms choose to seperate Jew and Gentile when it comes to God's chastening in the New Testament yet they somehow find a way to put the focus on the Gentile whenever a blessing is involved (ie. replacement theology). Yes the NT wrtiers may be adressing the Jews however just as God's promises are given to all of His people, the same hold's true for the chastenings (ie. the letters that Paul & the apostles write that would eventually become the NT that were written for a specific group yet given to all to read and follow). Keep in mind that the gentiles replaced no-one, rather we were grafted in to what had already established, ironically through JEWISH believers.
 
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machew

Guest
#67
I see what you're saying however, if Abraham was and still is the Father of our faith, how God determines righteousness is the same now as it was then. While all of the sacrifices were a necessity in the old covenant to achieve forgiveness, let's not forget that each and every sacrifice was nothing more of a symbol, a reflection, a reminder (if you will) to God of that which was to come, and that is Christ crucified. - The initial concepts of Salavation, Faith, Grace and Repentence is no different now as they were then however what has changed is the way we go about seeking them. No longer do we have to sacrifice an animal(s), but because of Christ crucified we can petetion the father personally, through Christ Jesus.

I find your perspective on Grace and repentence, while indeed nobile, I find it to be a bit presumptous. I simply do not see how you have come to this conclussion if indeed scripture is your foundation. I encourage you to include scripture to support your claim. I'm seriously thinking of doing a paper on this issue entittled "Future Grace or Lisence to Sin". Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
In Hebrews 10, the writer goes through a lot of effort emphasizing that Jesus' death on the cross was to do away with sin, once for all.

How do you interpret this? He also notes that under the law the Jews had to make many sacrafices every time their was sin, But that Christ's sacrifice was all that is necessary to atone for all sin. To say that future sin isn't forgiven is to negate what Hebrews 10 says.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#68
Jesus paid for the sins of mankind, but that is not the same thing as forgiveness. Future sins are not forgiven until they are repented of, however, future sins are forgiveable due to Christ.

To say that future sin is forgiven is also to say that every person on the face of the earth is saved. Unbelief is a sin too remember.
But while Christ has paid the price for every person, not every person is forgiven why? Because they have not repented.
This isn't rocket science.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#69
Is it so difficult to believe that God can give of His life by grace without any repentance on our part?
Yes it is difficult to think like that because that would mean God gives His life and grace to unrepentant sinners, but no, what God offers unrepentant sinners, is the possibility of His life and grace, God offers the gift, it is only once a person repents and believes, that the gift is opened and appropriated to their life.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#70
Jesus Christ really did die for the sins of the whole world.

No one will be in hell because of their sins but because of their works.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#72
Human good is evil. (all clear? good!)
 
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shad

Guest
#73
Yes it is difficult to think like that because that would mean God gives His life and grace to unrepentant sinners, but no, what God offers unrepentant sinners, is the possibility of His life and grace, God offers the gift, it is only once a person repents and believes, that the gift is opened and appropriated to their life.
Do you think that your repentance qualifies you to receive grace from God? A humble and contrite heart qualifies the sinner to receive grace. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble / Jm 4:6, 1Pt 5:5. Your repentance did nothing to save you or give you victory over sin, it was all grace. Something you did not deserve but was given to you and you received it. You did not ask Christ to come from heaven and sacrifice His life and shed His blood for you and your sins, but He did and that was mercy and grace on God's part. You had nothing to do with it, yet it was made available to you by faith and given to you by grace. You can't get it by repenting of your sin because your sin was already paid for and judged by God through His Son.

All you can do, as a sinner, is believe what was done by Christ for you and on your behalf. Repentance of any sin Christ paid for and put away has nothing to do with grace nor is it an act of faith on your part. Repentance can not appropriate a single thing from God. God is not moved with compassion toward your repentance but He is moved by a humble and contrite heart. If there is any repentance needed for anything, God will grant it according to His own mercy. Repentance from man is nothing more then a filthy rag of personal righteousness.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#74
Repentance is personal righteousness? Wow, you're beliefs are really mixed up. I don't know how often you read the bible in detail but there are calls to repentance throughout it, I posted a few scriptures before. Repentance is basically you telling God you are willing and able to allow Him to work in your life. To repent are direct commands from Christ:

Rev 3:19As many asIlove,Irebukeandchasten:be zealoustherefore,andrepent.


I don't know what your problem is.

Perhaps you think Simon's and other's repentance did nothing to save them, despite the apostles calling them to repent:

Act 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.


 
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shad

Guest
#75
Repentance is personal righteousness? Wow, you're beliefs are really mixed up. I don't know how often you read the bible in detail but there are calls to repentance throughout it, I posted a few scriptures before. Repentance is basically you telling God you are willing and able to allow Him to work in your life. To repent are direct commands from Christ:

Rev 3:19As many asIlove,Irebukeandchasten:be zealoustherefore,andrepent.


I don't know what your problem is.

Perhaps you think Simon's and other's repentance did nothing to save them, despite the apostles calling them to repent:

Act 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Esau sought repentance carefully with tears but was rejected and found no place of repentance / Heb 12:17. No one has a capacity to repent unless they are granted that repentance by God as were the Gentiles and they were granted repentance unto life / Acts 11:18. There is no sin mentioned. Repentance has to do with the heart receiving grace through the righteousness of God. If grace does not reign in the heart, repentance is not granted and not matter what needs to be turned from or changed in the mind it is taken from them. For a person to change their mind about anything they must humble themselves in the sight of God and receive grace. When they receive grace they will be lifted up. Outward repentance toward God has nothing to do with that process no matter how hard you would like to make it so. Esau could not find a place of repentance no matter how hard he tried and no matter how many tears he shed through sorrow.

The rich man could not inherit eternal life even though he obeyed all the commandments from his youth. He was commended by the Lord but was told that he lacked one thing, sell all that you have and give it to the poor and follow Him. The rich man went away grieved because he had great wealth. The thing that he had in his heart was stopping him from having eternal life through Christ. He could not repent and turn from his riches because he would not humble himself so that God could grant him repentance and receive grace. The pride of his heart, because of his riches, kept him from repentance and the grace of God. When we humble ourselves as a little child and believe upon Christ, God grants us repentance in the heart for grace to enter and save us. Grace turns us from self to serve the living God. Our sins were paid for by Christ and we receive that payment through faith in the blood of Christ. If we try to repent without this process of humility and grace we end up as Esau finding no place of repentance no matter how much we go after it.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#77
Is it so difficult to believe that God can give of His life by grace without any repentance on our part? The cross of Christ is what makes that possible. In Acts 17 Paul is addressing a superstitious group at Mars Hill in Athens that were worshipping the image of a false 'Unknown God'. That was a system of belief that they needed to repent of and turn to the true God that was raised from the dead. He did not mention anything about sin, he was dealing with what they believed. Some mocked him but He got a few converts that cleaved to him in verse 34.

In Acts 3:12-26 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (Jews) who killed the Prince of Life and refused the words of the prophets. They needed to be converted from their sin of ignorance and rebellion because they would not take heed to the prophesy of Moses that spoke of Christ, the one that they should listen to when He comes / verse 22. Peter is dealing with the Jews and their hard hearts of unbelief, ignorance and rebellion and this they needed to repent of so that their sins could be blotted out / verse 19.

In Acts 2:22- 38 Peter is dealing with the men of Israel (the Jews) and the house of Israel (verse 36)who had crucified and had slain Jesus of Nazareth, both Lord and Christ. God was so good to them in that speech from Peter. They were pricked in their hearts and responded with a child like faith and (3000) Jews repented of their unbelief concerning Christ and what they had done to Him and were forgiven and remitted of all their sins when they believed and were given the Holy Spirit (and were baptized to boot). The Jews really needed to be baptized, not for the remission of sins but to identify with Christ who they had slain and crucified. God had mercy on them and gave them grace to repent and be forgiven.
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....Too many interpretive gymnastics for my peace of mind.
 
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shad

Guest
#78
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....Too many interpretive gymnastics for my peace of mind.
It's not so hard to understand, it's all right there in the text. The setting, the one who is speaking, those being addressed, the message being spoken and the results. The background of the hearts and minds and the acts of the past and present are all right there. Just read it and understand what is going on. If you have a problem understanding what is being addressed and what needed to be repented of keep reading it and perhaps get some more background in your understanding about the Jews disposition toward Christ and what He accomplished on the cross even for all those unbelieving rebellious Jews, men of Israel, the house of Israel who were all part of killing the Prince of Life. So if it walks and quacks like a duck try not to be a donkey in your understanding, be a duck instead.
 
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shad

Guest
#79
In other words Shad you are saying that since we have been made righteous by God's grace then there is no longer need for repentence? Do you realize that what you are saying echoes the very sentiment, that because we are God's elect we are somehow exempt from the the scrutiny and judgements of God, the EXACT same sentiment which not only ushered in the Babylonian Exile but also caused the Jewish leadership to stand in oppositon to Christ?
We are not exempt from the conviction of the Holy Spirit nor of God's chastening, nor of the laws of sowing to the flesh. If we rebel in our heart against the word of God in any area, bitterness can settle in and the conscience can be seared because of pride as we stop receiving grace. This happens to a greater degree to those that have not been regenerated and they continue to reject the work of the Holy Spirit's conviction to bring them to the salvation of Christ. This is why the writer of Hebrews was so dogmatic in his approach with the Jews that were under the old system but were being brought out of it through the pre-salvation work of the Holy Spirit and bringing them to Christ.

The law could have brought them to Christ as a schoolmaster / Gal 3:24,25 but because they received their righteousness from the law they rejected Christ and the righteousness that comes by faith. So now a greater conviction than the law is convincing them of Christ and if they reject that conviction and turn back and fall away (aside) from that measure of grace, it would very difficult to renew them back to this place of repentance. Some are going to say that the word is 'impossible' and it does not mean difficult and those that reject this conviction and crucify Christ afresh cannot ever be saved through Christ.

If it means impossible and not difficult then perhaps we have to conclude that with God NOT all things are possible, but that is not what is says / Mt 19:26, Mk 9:23, 19:27, 14:36. Are we going to say that God does not have the power through His mercy and grace to soften the hardest of hearts and have mercy on who He will have mercy / Ex 33:19, Rom 9:15-18? It is not in the power of our hands to decide on whom God will harden and on whom He will have mercy.

It took a divine intervention on the road of Damascus to get Paul's (Saul) attention with a blinding light and getting knocked off his horse and hearing words from Christ in heaven, that put him in a place of humility. Paul was not seeking God or doing that on his own nor did he have any intention to do it. God doesn't always use this approach to get the attention of a religious Jew (or Gentile) who was breathing out threatenings and slaughters against the disciples of the Lord / Acts 9. Perhaps Paul was beyond conviction and needed this kind of intervention right from God Himself. The facts of what happened are not debatable because it was God's choice to raise him up not matter what state his heart was in.

When David's son, that he had with Bathsheba, was sick and near death, David would not eat and He prayed for him for seven days, even though the prophet Nathan told him that God was going to take the boy. After the boy had died David was asked by one of the servants why he weeped for the child while he was alive but rose and ate when he was dead. This was David's reply in 2Sam 12:22;

'And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

Today we would have people explaining and analyzing David's behavior as some kind of 'post traumatic syndrome' or that he was in denial of the inevitable. They would say that his mind and actions were consistent with a grieving father over the fatal sickness of his child. They would also add that this disposition and strange behavior was complicated by the guilt and shame of having Uriah murdered, the woman's husband that he had an adulterous affair with that produced this sick child. The common person would say that he got what he deserved and should go to prison for what he did. The average Christian would have shunned him and said that he has disqualified himself from his position of leadership and who knows what else they would say these days. Maybe they would want him tried for murder or to get rid of that wh__e Bathsheba, but certainly never to be in a place to teach transgressors God's ways / Ps 51:13.

But David was in his right mind and knew that the heart of God was gracious and of tender mercies and he was going to appeal to Him and see if the Lord would be gracious to him and not take the boy. We keep going after the mercy of God, every morning, every noon and every night because His mercy endures for ever / Ps 136. If it was not for the Lord's mercies we would be consumed / Lam 3:22.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#80
It's not so hard to understand, it's all right there in the text. The setting, the one who is speaking, those being addressed, the message being spoken and the results. The background of the hearts and minds and the acts of the past and present are all right there. Just read it and understand what is going on. If you have a problem understanding what is being addressed and what needed to be repented of keep reading it and perhaps get some more background in your understanding about the Jews disposition toward Christ and what He accomplished on the cross even for all those unbelieving rebellious Jews, men of Israel, the house of Israel who were all part of killing the Prince of Life. So if it walks and quacks like a duck try not to be a donkey in your understanding, be a duck instead.
Sorry, just calling me names doesn't make your interpretation correct. I appreciate that there are various views of how repentance relates to salvation, but salvation without any consideration of repentance ignores too many texts.
 
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