Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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throughfaith

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So why did seperate Paul from his mother's womb? Because his parents were so special? No. SO it doesn't matter that he was seperated from his mother's womb. It was a calling that was not based on anything he or anyone else did. His apostleship was purely by God's Soveriegn choice.

And it's ludicrous to say that God chose Paul to be an apostle before he was foreknown as one of God's elect. Paul would necessarily have to be elect to be an apostle. God wasn't like, "hey, I'm not sure if this guy is going to be saved, but I think I'll call him to be an apostle and hope for the best." That is silly.

So it was already known by God that Paul would be saved. He would have to be saved to be an apostle. And his apostleship was based on God's Soveriegn choice and nothing else.

But God knew that he would be a believer before the foundation of the world. Try to deny that and you are an open theist
Paul is a chosen vessel to God, not to be saved, but to bear God’s “name before the Gentiles, Kings, and the
children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul is an ideal candidate because he is both a Jew and a Roman citizen which gives
him more freedom of mobility and passage. He also studied at the most renown Jewish teacher of the day, giving him credibility among the Jews. His election was for a specific purpose, not salvation, and it was extremely
 

Budman

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DID JESUS NOT GIVE JUDAS POWER TO CAST OUT DEVILS??
Did Jesus give the man the power to cast out devils in Mark 9:38? The one who was not following them?

Did Jesus give the people spoken of in Matthew 7:22 the power to cast out devils? The ones Jesus said he "never" knew?

And since you keep avoiding this question, I'll keep asking it:

At conversion, were all of our sins forgiven - past, present, and future?

Yes or No.

BTW, I know why you won't answer it. It's because if you answer "yes" your whole case for believers losing their salvation falls completely apart. Yours is the age old works-for-salvation garbage that has destroyed hope in many a Christian. You claim good works prove salvation, and yet Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, even many atheists, etc., can run circles around the average Christian when it comes to good works. Are they saved?

You remind me of the Pharisees Jesus spoke of who prayed loudly in public, and gave large offerings publicly, to receive the praise of men. Instead of doing what the Lord says - which is praying and giving in secret for only Him to see.

Who are you trying to prove your salvation to? Yourself? Don't you already know? To God? Doesn't He already know?

The only thing left is you desire the praise of others.

You're pushing an achieving system instead of a receiving system. You're looking to earn, maintain, and sustain instead of taking what God gives freely - His grace. You're basically teaching your good works pay for sin.

There's plenty of reasons to turn from sin, but getting more forgiveness isn't one of them.
 

AlmondJoy

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Oct 31, 2020
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"Budman, post: 4426797, member: 190749"

Did Jesus give the man the power to cast out devils in Mark 9:38? The one who was not following them?[/ QUOTE]

yes, this was a mysterious disciple that was no doubt a disciple of John that believed in Jesus.

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:38 KJV

Notice why they forbad him, because he followers not us

Sounds like some Christians I know......if you don't follow us then your not saved

Did Jesus give the people spoken of in Matthew 7:22 the power to cast out devils? The ones Jesus said he "never" knew?[/ QUOTE]

This should be as plain as the beard on your face.....Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU

Again, the Bible said these people will say "HAVE WE NOT CAST OUT DEMONS IN THY NAME?"

I've seen Benny (chicken) Hinn cast out a lot of demons. Let me rephrase that I have heard him say he has healed the sick and cast out devils

Do you believe Benny Hinn really heals people? Me neither but I promise you one day he will say he did

And since you keep avoiding this question, I'll keep asking it:
At conversion, were all of our sins forgiven - past, present, and future?
Yes or No.
NO. Future sins are not forgiven before we commit them
I'm not avoiding anything just starting to wonder about your reading abilities. Lol

When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that you and I and the rest of the human race will ever commit, from Adam’s first sin until the very last sin that will be committed on this planet.

But that doesn’t mean that God forgives our sins before we commit them. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible, and when the Lord says that He forgives us and remembers our sins no more, He’s speaking of the sins we have committed at the time He forgives us.

The New Testament is totally clear on this. As it is written in 2 Peter 1, the believer who goes backward spiritually rather than forward “is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins” 2 Pet. 1:9 “having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.” WHAT!!!

What sins did God forgive when we asked Him to save us and cleanse us? He forgave our past sins, our former sins, the sins we committed before we were born-again. As explained in Colossians 2, when we put our faith in Jesus and became children of God, He cancelled “the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (Col. 2:14). The CJB explains that “He wiped away the bill of charges against us” and the TNIV reads, “having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

Under God’s holy law, we accumulated a massive amount of spiritual debt, with each new sin we committed adding to that debt. And it was a debt we could never repay, especially since the standards of God’s law continually reminded us of our failures and shortcomings. But the moment God saved us, He forgave us that debt

So, when we look to the Lord for salvation, He forgives every sin we have committed up to that point and He even forgives us for who we are: lost, rebellious sinners. But He does not forgive us for our sins before we commit them. This is clearly stated in many passages and it makes perfect spiritual sense as well.

When you put your trust in Jesus as your Savior and Lord and you asked Him to forgive you for all your sins, what sins did you mean? Perhaps you said something like, “God, I confess to you that I am a sinner and have done many wrongs things in my life, and I ask you to forgive me and wash me clean.”

Is that how you prayed? I said something similar to the Lord, and He met me right where I was as a heroin-shooting, LSD-using, rebellious, hippie rock drummer. I was clean and forgiven and washed at that very moment. Totally! And all the guilt I had been feeling in previous weeks as the Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sins was totally gone as well. What amazing grace!

But it didn’t dawn on me to say, “And Lord, while we’re at it, could you please forgive me for all the sins I plan to commit tomorrow and for the rest of my life, along with the sins I don’t plan to commit?”

I bet it didn’t dawn on you to say that either. Why? It is because we understand that forgiveness is for what we have done, not for what we will do.

In the same way, if I sinned against my friend and let him down, I would go to him and say, “Please forgive me for being irresponsible and causing you pain. I was wrong and I make no excuses.” But I wouldn’t say to him, “And since I’m confessing and you’re forgiving, I ask you to forgive me in advance for every sin I will ever commit against you in the future as well.” Of course not!

You might say, “But isn’t it different with God, since He sees the future the way we see the past?”

Not at all, even though He inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15) and knows the beginning from the end (Isaiah 46:8-10). But when it comes to forgiveness, He only forgives people for what they have done, not what they will do. Consequently, there is not a single verse in the Bible where God forgives a person’s sins before they commit those sins. Not one.

forgiveness covers whatever “debt” we have incurred, which is why Jesus taught us to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt 6:12) in the Lord’s prayer. (Remember: the Sermon on the Mount is for disciples – for followers of Jesus – according to Matt 5:1.)

Look at every single prayer for forgiveness recorded in the Bible, and you will see that people (and nations) only ask for forgiveness for what they have done, not what they will do. Then look at every single time that God pronounces a person or nation forgiven in the Bible and you will see that, without exception, it is for sins that person or nation have already committed, not for future sins.

I know that some teachers today say that, “God doesn’t forgive in installments,” and it sounds very powerful. But that teaching has no basis in Scripture. In fact, the entire Bible is against it.

in 1 John 1, John says to God’s people (the “we” and “us” of his letter) that, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). The Greek is present, continuous as opposed to one fixed time, and it speaks of the pattern of our lives as believers. So, as saved, forgiven people, loved by the Father, if we sin against the Lord, we confess that to the Lord, receiving fresh cleansing and forgiveness

On a practical level, it is very important to understand clearly that God does not forgive our sins before we commit them, since this false teaching opens the door to all kinds of deception and danger. You see, if I really believe that my future sins are already forgiven, in a time of weakness or temptation I might think to myself, “It no big deal if I do that, since I’m already forgiven and therefore nothing could change my relationship with God, no matter what I do.” I think you can see how dangerous that could be.

To say that my future sins are forgiven before I commit them would be like a driver saying, “By faith, I’ve already arrived at my destination, so I can ignore these warning signs on the road.” In reality, we ignore them to our own peril.
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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yes, this was a mysterious disciple that was no doubt a disciple of John that believed in Jesus.
"Mysterious disciple"? That "no doubt" was a disciple of John?

Wow. You literally just made that up whole cloth. The Bible doesn't say, or even indicate that AT ALL.

Incredible. You simply make up your own scripture when it suits you.

And then you contradict yourself when you say: "Notice why they forbad him, because he followers not us."

So, this "disciple" you made up could cast out demons, yet was not a follower?

You (and the Bible) made my case. Judas cast out demons, but was not an actual believer.

This should be as plain as the beard on your face.....Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU
Yep. Exactingly. Yet they could cast out demons. Jesus do not deny they did what they did. And when you bring up Benny Hinn, you made my case for me yet again.

NO. Future sins are not forgiven before we commit them. When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that you and I and the rest of the human race will ever commit, from Adam’s first sin until the very last sin that will be committed on this planet. But that doesn’t mean that God forgives our sins before we commit them.
I am literally shaking my head at the contradiction in your own statement.

You are claiming that we don't actually have salvation, we have probation.

You do realize (yet, of course you don't) that when something has been paid in full, that there is no payment pending? When Jesus paid our debt, that means we have no debt to pay. There are no sins LEFT attributed to us. By your insane reasoning, our sins are indeed paid for, BUT WE STILL OWE.

How can more forgiveness be required when the object of debt (sin) in gone? We have no sin credited to our account. Jesus took them and exchanged them for His own righteousness. We are called holy, blameless, and righteous in scripture because of that act of justification.

I beg you - tell me, what cult do you belong to?

But that doesn’t mean that God forgives our sins before we commit them. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible, and when the Lord says that He forgives us and remembers our sins no more, He’s speaking of the sins we have committed at the time He forgives us.
So, when the Bible repeatedly says ALL sins have been forgiven, it doesn't actually MEAN all.

Wow. Just.......wow.

Listen to me carefully...if we have sins yet to be forgiven, we can never be saved. We are eternally lost. And here is why: The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. The Bible also says Jesus did this as a one time act. He is not going to come back and shed more blood for any more sins. (Romans 6:10)

No shed blood = no more forgiveness.

If we have even a SINGLE sin accredited to our account, we are doomed.

Just one.

You are literally saying that if a Christian dies before they can confess any sins committed since there last confession, those sins are not forgiven. That means the believer goes straight to hell. If you claim they don't go to hell, everything you just said in your post is a lie.

I know that some teachers today say that, “God doesn’t forgive in installments,” and it sounds very powerful. But that teaching has no basis in Scripture. In fact, the entire Bible is against it.
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Collossians 2:13)

"FORGIVEN you ALL".

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39)

Justified from all things = forgiveness of sins.

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake." (1 John 2:12)

ARE forgiven. Not "are until you sin after conversion.

I've been on this site for a long time. And I have to say, I've come across some strange beliefs here, but you BY FAR have the most heretical.
 

OIC1965

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I simply said that benny hinn also believes in the deity of Christ ect . Many denominations agree on the trinity , the virgin birth , the deity of Christ , hell ect but you yourself would find questionable because that's how deception works. They can be right on all those things but still be false. Thats all my point was .
My point was that just because a group that you disagree with believes a certain doctrine, that is biblical, it is foolish to throw the baby out with the bath water. Someone mentioned commentatators, and you did not address their argument, but dismissed them completely.
 

OIC1965

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Election of Calvinism
God’s unconditional choice of individual sinners for salvation by divine
decree, by which they are drawn irresistibly to faith in Christ.
• Election of Arminianism
God’s choice in individual sinners for salvation, conditional on the
person’s free choice to believe in Christ, as foreknown by God.
• Election of Scripture
God’s choice of the church in Christ, for heavenly blessings.
And God knows each one who is part of His Church, AND ALWAYS HAS.

To deny this is to assert imperfection in the knowledge of God.

The God you believe in is not Omniscient. YHWH, the God I believe in IS omniscient.
 

OIC1965

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1 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV)
1 PETER, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,
Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God
the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the
blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Not “saved according to God knowing in advance that you would believe.” That’s Arminianism reading Calvinistic presuppositions into the word “elect.”
Chosen to serve in a capacity in
accordance with what God foreknew
would be required to be accomplished by you at this time and place.
Sprinkling blood on the people goes back to Exodus 24:7-8. It’s a covenant God makes with his
people after he gives them instruction and they reply with, “All that the LORD hath said, will we
do, and be obedient.”
Exodus 24:7–8 (KJV)
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they
said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
In other words, “You are now part of a covenant where you are
expected to do something and to be obedient. That is, be a servant.
God does not elect people to ministry that He does not foreknow to be His. Do you think God elected a person’s ministry while their eternal destiny is uncertain and contingent?

So you hold that God elected everyone, but some who God elects end up being non elect. It would have to be so if God chose someone to be something that they may never end up being, seeing that their salvation is uncertain and God isn’t sure if they’ll be saved or not.
 

OIC1965

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Paul is a chosen vessel to God, not to be saved, but to bear God’s “name before the Gentiles, Kings, and the
children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul is an ideal candidate because he is both a Jew and a Roman citizen which gives
him more freedom of mobility and passage. He also studied at the most renown Jewish teacher of the day, giving him credibility among the Jews. His election was for a specific purpose, not salvation, and it was extremely
How could Paul be a chosen vessel to bear God’s name if It was uncertain whether he would be saved or not?

See, you have a big hole in your argument. You say that predestination is after salvation. But that’s not what the scripture teaches. You cannot show one passage that says predestination or election is only after faith unto salvation. Not one

But I can show cases where it is before a person is born.

So you have zero evidence for your argument.

Show me one passage that says we are foreknown, chosen, or predestinated after we believe.
 

OIC1965

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I already gave Galatians 2:9 to you.

The prophetic timetable was that the nation of Israel is to be saved first thru acknowledging that Jesus is their promised Messiah (John 20:31), before the gentile nations could be reached (Zechariah 8)

Since Israel as a nation never did acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah, John could not have moved on to gentiles.

Its a simple and straightforward argument to me.
The biggest flaw in your argument is that national salvation ( spiritual restoration) of Israel as a nation has not happened YET.
 

OIC1965

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Which verses support this position ?
The overarching truth of Gods Soveriegnty. Your view of God is a God that is not soveriegn.

If you haven’t read the Bible and seen God restraining evil here, and permitting it there, but in so doing He is working all things after the council of His own will, you’re not reading with much comprehension.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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The biggest flaw in your argument is that national salvation ( spiritual restoration) of Israel as a nation has not happened YET.
Romans 11 made that clear, unless you have a different interpretation of what Paul meant there?
 

throughfaith

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God does not elect people to ministry that He does not foreknow to be His. Do you think God elected a person’s ministry while their eternal destiny is uncertain and contingent?

So you hold that God elected everyone, but some who God elects end up being non elect. It would have to be so if God chose someone to be something that they may never end up being, seeing that their salvation is uncertain and God isn’t sure if they’ll be saved or not.
I do not hold to election to salvation.
 

throughfaith

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The overarching truth of Gods Soveriegnty. Your view of God is a God that is not soveriegn.

If you haven’t read the Bible and seen God restraining evil here, and permitting it there, but in so doing He is working all things after the council of His own will, you’re not reading with much comprehension.
God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.
 

OIC1965

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Romans 11 made that clear, unless you have a different interpretation of what Paul meant there?
It hasn’t happened yet

You have it backwards, btw. Israel will be saved when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in...
 

OIC1965

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God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.
Who is teaching Hindu fatalism? You read too many slanderers who are children of those who slandered Paul and the Gospel. Beware!
 

OIC1965

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Oh you are actually agreeing with me then
No, because you keep saying that Israel must be saved before the Gospel can go into the world. Or at least you were saying that was true of John.

Was Polycarp John’s disciple? What think you?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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No, because you keep saying that Israel must be saved before the Gospel can go into the world. Or at least you were saying that was true of John.

Was Polycarp John’s disciple? What think you?
I said that was the OT prophetic program.

But after Israel stoned Stephen, God interrupted that with the mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul, that gentiles can now be saved thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

John was sticking to the OT prophetic program, as stated in Galatians 2:7-9.