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C
ive been here long enough to know my opinion and most everyones for that matter mean pretty much nothing to anyone , just causes division so i commented sarcastically which i should not have done...so with that being said....* zips lip*
but my opinion...salvation isnt ever lost its right where many people walk away and leave it..... there ya go
but my opinion...salvation isnt ever lost its right where many people walk away and leave it..... there ya go
S
You certainly believe and practice the truth in Eccl 5:2. Don't be discouraged when someone challenges what you have to say, just speak the truth in love. What you say matters to more people than what you may think. Some come on here and read what you say, they look at your profile, find other posts you have written and yet they say nothing. Some may send a personal message but most probably just take it all in. You have probably blessed more than you can count and I don't mean the same people over and over. What you have to say about the salvation that God has given you is vital to me and others. Most times when we speak it does not cause division, it reveals division already in the heart and that is why people react, get uncomfortable and respond negatively. There are lots of blockheads that post and say some hard headed things.
quote ~ salvation isnt ever lost (by the one who received it by grace) its right where many people walk away and leave it (they get discouraged in their faith and stop growing in grace and begin to wander away).....
The conclusion would be that they can go back anytime they want, and God will receive them through mercy and grace.
Would that be your conclusion or am I putting words in your mouth?
quote ~ salvation isnt ever lost (by the one who received it by grace) its right where many people walk away and leave it (they get discouraged in their faith and stop growing in grace and begin to wander away).....
The conclusion would be that they can go back anytime they want, and God will receive them through mercy and grace.
Would that be your conclusion or am I putting words in your mouth?
C
Shad that is exactly why God placed mankind on earth instead of allowing us to occupy heaven from the very beginning. He wanted man to chose God over his own selfish desires that way what happened with Lucifer would never happen again. Essentially Earth is the proving grounds and only those who are whole heartedly submitted to Christ shall partake of eternity in His glorious presence.
This why God is able to forgive sdin. No longer does he look at the sin itself but instead he pears deep into the heart of man. If the man truly loves God and truly desires to be submitted, despite making a few mistakrs, God joyfully and gracefully considers that "righteousness".
On the flipside of that you can have a person who very seldom falls into acts of disobedience yet in his heart he is full over pride that fact. God peers into that heart and sees a person who legalistically has little sin but who's heart is self centered and that person may very well find himself in hell through all eternity.
Finally, you have those who know God in their intellect yet do not know God in their heart. They grew up in church, they know all the key scriptures of their belief systems and they swear by souls that how they were taught is the right way and that everyone else is wrong. However, when God peers into their heart He sees a faith that is "man centrered" and not "God centered" (ie. self righteousness) and that person too finfds themselves in hell for all eternity.
I'm here to tell you folks that true salvation lives far deeper in a man heart and soul than mere doctrine. Whether you put your faith faith in Calvanism or Arminaism is complete irrevelevent as it pertains to one's true salvation. The real question is due you love God in the same manner inwhich He loves you...with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength? If your answer is a resounding "YES" then, and only then are you eternally secure.
This why God is able to forgive sdin. No longer does he look at the sin itself but instead he pears deep into the heart of man. If the man truly loves God and truly desires to be submitted, despite making a few mistakrs, God joyfully and gracefully considers that "righteousness".
On the flipside of that you can have a person who very seldom falls into acts of disobedience yet in his heart he is full over pride that fact. God peers into that heart and sees a person who legalistically has little sin but who's heart is self centered and that person may very well find himself in hell through all eternity.
Finally, you have those who know God in their intellect yet do not know God in their heart. They grew up in church, they know all the key scriptures of their belief systems and they swear by souls that how they were taught is the right way and that everyone else is wrong. However, when God peers into their heart He sees a faith that is "man centrered" and not "God centered" (ie. self righteousness) and that person too finfds themselves in hell for all eternity.
I'm here to tell you folks that true salvation lives far deeper in a man heart and soul than mere doctrine. Whether you put your faith faith in Calvanism or Arminaism is complete irrevelevent as it pertains to one's true salvation. The real question is due you love God in the same manner inwhich He loves you...with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength? If your answer is a resounding "YES" then, and only then are you eternally secure.
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The History of Eternal Security:
http://www.eternalsecurity.us/a_historical_examination.htm
Because of his influence, much of Catholic and Protestant history has been founded on the belief that matter, (the physical body and its appetites,) are the embodiment of evil. This belief is undeniably Gnostic and not Christian. This duality that the Gnostics taught was illustrated by describing a pure golden ring as the spirit, and a pile of manure as matter, or the body. The ring can be put into the pile of dung and completely surrounded, but the filthiness of the dung does not permeate it. It remains as pure as it always has.
Augustine taught that the body, flesh, was the seat of evil and sin. This is why procreation was a sinful act in his mind. To this day I have heard eternal security teachers refer to the flesh as an entity that cannot help but sin, while at the same time they have asserted that sin cannot affect the spirit or the spiritual security of the believer. Gnosticism is alive today in those who propagate a salvation that makes the spirit pure, while maintaining the sinfulness of matter. The spirit is pure, but the body is sinful at the same time. A little Christian varnish may make this doctrine more appealing, but under the surface it is still pagan and not Christian!
One idea brought over from Buddhism is the idea that we are to die to "self." Being delivered from "self" might get us to Nirvana but not to heaven. The problem here is that the idea of "flesh" is thought of as the person, (self), which being matter, is therefore considered sinful. The Scriptures do not tell us that we are to be saved from "self." There is nothing wrong being the people we were created to be. God's qualm with us is not our "person" or "self"; it is our rebellion with Him. The thing we are to be cleansed from is not the "self," but the defilement and the filthiness of flesh. We are commanded "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Jesus Himself made the proper love of our "self" as a duty and a virtue when He said: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Augustine thought that Pelagius had taken a heretical stance by saying that man can "will" his own way into the kingdom of God and does not need any special drawing of the Spirit to compel them. To counteract this argument, Augustine went to the extreme opposite end by drawing from the absolute predestination that he was taught as a Manichaean. He brought this belief over with himself when he became a Christian. This was the beginning of what was to become Calvinism and then modern day Eternal Security. Ultimately, the roots of Eternal Security are in the Gnosticism that preceded Augustine, but it was Augustine that has the unwelcome honor of leavening the whole lump.
Eternal Security is pagan in its origin and is a thought that is in opposition to the Bible and genuine Christianity. Its lineage cannot be traced back but a few hundred years where it draws its inspiration from the "perseverance of the Saints" which in turn was drawn from Augustine's introduction of Gnostic and Buddhist thought into the Church. Eternal Security has a history, but not a very good one for the Christian who knows its origin.
http://www.eternalsecurity.us/a_historical_examination.htm
Because of his influence, much of Catholic and Protestant history has been founded on the belief that matter, (the physical body and its appetites,) are the embodiment of evil. This belief is undeniably Gnostic and not Christian. This duality that the Gnostics taught was illustrated by describing a pure golden ring as the spirit, and a pile of manure as matter, or the body. The ring can be put into the pile of dung and completely surrounded, but the filthiness of the dung does not permeate it. It remains as pure as it always has.
Augustine taught that the body, flesh, was the seat of evil and sin. This is why procreation was a sinful act in his mind. To this day I have heard eternal security teachers refer to the flesh as an entity that cannot help but sin, while at the same time they have asserted that sin cannot affect the spirit or the spiritual security of the believer. Gnosticism is alive today in those who propagate a salvation that makes the spirit pure, while maintaining the sinfulness of matter. The spirit is pure, but the body is sinful at the same time. A little Christian varnish may make this doctrine more appealing, but under the surface it is still pagan and not Christian!
One idea brought over from Buddhism is the idea that we are to die to "self." Being delivered from "self" might get us to Nirvana but not to heaven. The problem here is that the idea of "flesh" is thought of as the person, (self), which being matter, is therefore considered sinful. The Scriptures do not tell us that we are to be saved from "self." There is nothing wrong being the people we were created to be. God's qualm with us is not our "person" or "self"; it is our rebellion with Him. The thing we are to be cleansed from is not the "self," but the defilement and the filthiness of flesh. We are commanded "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Jesus Himself made the proper love of our "self" as a duty and a virtue when He said: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Augustine thought that Pelagius had taken a heretical stance by saying that man can "will" his own way into the kingdom of God and does not need any special drawing of the Spirit to compel them. To counteract this argument, Augustine went to the extreme opposite end by drawing from the absolute predestination that he was taught as a Manichaean. He brought this belief over with himself when he became a Christian. This was the beginning of what was to become Calvinism and then modern day Eternal Security. Ultimately, the roots of Eternal Security are in the Gnosticism that preceded Augustine, but it was Augustine that has the unwelcome honor of leavening the whole lump.
Eternal Security is pagan in its origin and is a thought that is in opposition to the Bible and genuine Christianity. Its lineage cannot be traced back but a few hundred years where it draws its inspiration from the "perseverance of the Saints" which in turn was drawn from Augustine's introduction of Gnostic and Buddhist thought into the Church. Eternal Security has a history, but not a very good one for the Christian who knows its origin.
Anyone seeking for truth and wanting to go back to apostolic and biblical christianity rather than the mess that denominations and churches are in today, should read and study some early church writings to see how they believed:
http://www.achurchinfortcollins.org/eseh2.php#firstandsecond
Here's a good one:
Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in France, c. 175
Irenaeus is widely valued as a vital link to the earliest days of the Church since he was taught by Polycarp, who was also taught by the Apostle John. This renders Irenaeus an expert on the question of eternal security. He also testifies that the Church had great unanimity in doctrine, even saying that he could go to an apostolic Church if a difficult question should arise.
http://www.achurchinfortcollins.org/eseh2.php#firstandsecond
Here's a good one:
Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in France, c. 175
Irenaeus is widely valued as a vital link to the earliest days of the Church since he was taught by Polycarp, who was also taught by the Apostle John. This renders Irenaeus an expert on the question of eternal security. He also testifies that the Church had great unanimity in doctrine, even saying that he could go to an apostolic Church if a difficult question should arise.
Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches? (1:417)
For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. (1:331)
In theory, Irenaeus is extremely likely to support eternal security -- two links removed from John, he writes about unanimously held, pure, apostolic beliefs in the Church, and he has visited apostolic Churches personally. The Calvinist is very excited to see what Irenaeus believes about eternal security. But after referring to a certain presbyter older than himself, Irenaeus writes: For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. (1:331)
We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, "For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, (1:499)
This statement of Irenaeus, combined with what we showed previously, is tantamount to saying that conditional security has always been the view held by the Churches, and therefore the same doctrine handed down by the apostles. The same can be seen in this single quotation, which we have abbreviated below. He directly states that the Church has always taught conditional security:
The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, ... and in one Christ Jesus, ... and in the Holy Spirit ...[and He will] confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, (1:330-331)
More quotations could be produced to show Irenaeus' belief in a conditional security (see also 1:500, 522, 525), but the previous two are sufficient. Again, this is not merely Irenaeus' personal view. Rather, it is the universal, pure, apostolic doctrine of the Church, and of his mentor Polycarp, and of Polycarp's mentor the Apostle John. In fact, the testimony of Irenaeus alone should be sufficient to cause our Calvinist friends to abandon their doctrine. Yet we will continue to search for eternal security among even earlier fossils.
C
not afraid to pick a fight are you? *lol*
while i do agree with you, i prefer - if at all possible - to dig deeper than this issue in an attempt to appeal to the Spirit which lives in a man's heart rather than the one that dwells in the recesses of his mind in the hopes of not offending the person thus turning them completely off to what needs to be said.
it is my hope and prayer that you are able to communicate these truths however, i have found little love and compassion in people who who feel threatened and find themself on the defensive, which is why it is critical that we do our best to be as compassionate and loving as possible in our attempts to open ones eyes to an opposing point of view.
while i do agree with you, i prefer - if at all possible - to dig deeper than this issue in an attempt to appeal to the Spirit which lives in a man's heart rather than the one that dwells in the recesses of his mind in the hopes of not offending the person thus turning them completely off to what needs to be said.
it is my hope and prayer that you are able to communicate these truths however, i have found little love and compassion in people who who feel threatened and find themself on the defensive, which is why it is critical that we do our best to be as compassionate and loving as possible in our attempts to open ones eyes to an opposing point of view.
For those who think losing one's salvation is impossible consider the following warning.
Hebrews 6: 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
You will notice that the author of Hebrews doesn't say it is impossible to fall away. He says, IF they fall away. That means IT IS possible. I would take this warning VERY seriously. This of course implies a complete rejection of the Trinity, where one's conscience is "seared with a hot iron", and a person's heart is no longer able to know God. It DOES NOT refer to day to day transgressions that we commit as a result of our weakness of spirit and faith, especially for those who are spiritually immature, but are walking in the right direction.
Hebrews 6: 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
You will notice that the author of Hebrews doesn't say it is impossible to fall away. He says, IF they fall away. That means IT IS possible. I would take this warning VERY seriously. This of course implies a complete rejection of the Trinity, where one's conscience is "seared with a hot iron", and a person's heart is no longer able to know God. It DOES NOT refer to day to day transgressions that we commit as a result of our weakness of spirit and faith, especially for those who are spiritually immature, but are walking in the right direction.
Mahogony, I respect your search of knowladge and study of the word. But you continuelly give the impression that it is by your power or by anyothers power and knowladge that we obtain salvation and understanding. Do you not realize that all we are, all we become, all we do, is given by Our Father in heaven. Won for us by Our Lord Jesus. And revieled through his Holy Spirit.
Yes read the word so understanding can be given through the Holy Spirit.
Obey, so that God may Glorify himself through with his rightousness.
Surrender to Jesus so his sacrifice will free you.
But all is from Our Lord God and thinking that you are saved or grow by your own power is just plain foolish.
God Our Father is the power behind our works and the founder of our works.
This does not mean you do not continue to seek. It just says that God is that which made us, not just in body, but in faith as well.
God bless, pickles
Yes read the word so understanding can be given through the Holy Spirit.
Obey, so that God may Glorify himself through with his rightousness.
Surrender to Jesus so his sacrifice will free you.
But all is from Our Lord God and thinking that you are saved or grow by your own power is just plain foolish.
God Our Father is the power behind our works and the founder of our works.
This does not mean you do not continue to seek. It just says that God is that which made us, not just in body, but in faith as well.
God bless, pickles
I think there is a balance, or combination between our strength and God's. When you think of it even our natural life and strength is God's. So why are you so afraid of using your own strength? Even our strength comes from the Lord so we should not use it? There is a general sense of fear , that this is in the 'works' basket and people may back away in fear of doing something in their own strength, out of fear that it is self-righteousness. But it isn't. We are saved by God's power in response to our own actions, inspired again by God's grace. Jesus never healed a person who did not first reach or call out to Him - in their own strength, who beforehand did not recognise who He was - by God's grace. God gives wisdom and understanding, but we must study. It doesn't come by a magic wave of the hand. It may sound super-spiritual to say everything is from God and it's nothing to do with us, in a kind of false humility, but it's not exactly correct.
If the Lord is going to prevent or stop a person seeking Him more in the active sense in their own strength then He will. But I can't imagine why the Lord would do that. As He said He even wants unbelievers to seek Him:
Act 17:26 And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
Act 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from each one of us.
Why do you think God would condemn a person for seeking Him in their own strength, because He's a Calvinist and doesn't want certain people to be saved?
Flee, fight, lay hold of, strive, profess, struggle, encourage, exhort, study, learn... these are not passive words, scripture is full of them. There's a few here:
1Ti 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life, to which you are also called and have professed a good profession before many witnesses.
I believe that all Christians, who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, by nature (their godly nature), use God's strength and not their own. If you think of yourself like a battery and filled with the Spirit then it's very hard not to be doing something in God's strength because your power source is God, even if you think it is your own strength. Only an unbeliever, or a christian trying to do something sinful and against God's will, might find they are doing it in their own strength and God is not helping them.
If the Lord is going to prevent or stop a person seeking Him more in the active sense in their own strength then He will. But I can't imagine why the Lord would do that. As He said He even wants unbelievers to seek Him:
Act 17:26 And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
Act 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from each one of us.
Why do you think God would condemn a person for seeking Him in their own strength, because He's a Calvinist and doesn't want certain people to be saved?
Flee, fight, lay hold of, strive, profess, struggle, encourage, exhort, study, learn... these are not passive words, scripture is full of them. There's a few here:
1Ti 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life, to which you are also called and have professed a good profession before many witnesses.
I believe that all Christians, who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, by nature (their godly nature), use God's strength and not their own. If you think of yourself like a battery and filled with the Spirit then it's very hard not to be doing something in God's strength because your power source is God, even if you think it is your own strength. Only an unbeliever, or a christian trying to do something sinful and against God's will, might find they are doing it in their own strength and God is not helping them.
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B
In the book of John Ch 6.66 The three sixes the anti Christ the number of a mans name John. Jesus told Peter will you also turn away and walk with me no more. So to turn away from Christ and never turn back again is the only real means of losing your salvation. For HIs mercy indures forever the whole chapter of Psalm 136 in every verse says His mercy endure for ever. We are saved by faith and that of grace.
So pickles I agree with everything you said , except that I don't deny the importance and existance of the self, which unfortunately comes from gnosticism or buddhism, that the self is somehow evil and bad. I sometimes hear some christians say it's all of God and none of us. But we're not puppets with God pulling the strings, and the self is not evil and bad when it has been regenerated and made into a new creation. The surrendered and new-natured self is quite capable of doing what God requires in the new image of Christ He made it to be. So I can see an issue if I told a non-Christian to go and study the bible and come to understanding about God by themself. But I see no issue saying that to a Christian who God has already empowered and enabled and has the Holy Spirit, and you shouldn't be so concerned and worried about doing things in your own strength because if you are honestly wanting to do the right thing the Spirit is going to be right there for you the moment you decide to move.
Mahogony. I think sometimes that comunication is the biggest issue here. I am saying that God empowers us and all we do. But the buddhism and other prophet baced beliefs do believe that it is ones self that must achieve. Ive counceled some on this.
What I said is that without giving all to God Our Father our acomplishments are nothing. Scripture says; commit all you do unto the Lord and you will succeed. I also believe that as scripture says, it is in my weaknesses that God is Glorified. We can choose how or where or what we do in faith. But Our success is from God Our Father. Even our own choices, no matter how good intentioned can be sinfull if we are not in Jesus.
So we probably do agree.
The point I was trying to make and maby I need to be more blunt, as I said you give the impression that you recognise the value of another christian by accomplishment, how much knowladge, ect. . I do not believe this is your intention, but it is how you come across.
I will say that you do give a good example. Because of your heart for the word and exsample I recommited myself to reading the scriptures even though I battle difficulties in recall. I discovered that the word is good food for the Spirit.
So again I say maby it comes down to communication, but you do give the impression that you hold yourself above others. Your not the only one and I know I have done this myself. But scripture say honor others above yourself.
Jesus gave that perfect exsample by washing the apostles feet.
Im not trying to put you down, I just wanted you to see. You could do so much more if you could understand the impression you give. You helped me see the greatness of the word again. Im hopefull to return the favor by helping you see the greatness of being humble before others.
Also respecting that for some their streangth in Jesus is through his love and spirit.
Im sure that you have walked long enough with the Lord to know that it does not matter how long we have worked before God, we all will recieve the same pay.
So if I have been to outspoken I do not mean to be unkind. Its just that Jesus has put it on my heart to speak out. I am ussually a big chicken in this.
Often we cannot see ourselves except through the eyes of another. My hope is to help and show you as you did for me.
In the Love of Jesus , God bless. pickles
What I said is that without giving all to God Our Father our acomplishments are nothing. Scripture says; commit all you do unto the Lord and you will succeed. I also believe that as scripture says, it is in my weaknesses that God is Glorified. We can choose how or where or what we do in faith. But Our success is from God Our Father. Even our own choices, no matter how good intentioned can be sinfull if we are not in Jesus.
So we probably do agree.
The point I was trying to make and maby I need to be more blunt, as I said you give the impression that you recognise the value of another christian by accomplishment, how much knowladge, ect. . I do not believe this is your intention, but it is how you come across.
I will say that you do give a good example. Because of your heart for the word and exsample I recommited myself to reading the scriptures even though I battle difficulties in recall. I discovered that the word is good food for the Spirit.
So again I say maby it comes down to communication, but you do give the impression that you hold yourself above others. Your not the only one and I know I have done this myself. But scripture say honor others above yourself.
Jesus gave that perfect exsample by washing the apostles feet.
Im not trying to put you down, I just wanted you to see. You could do so much more if you could understand the impression you give. You helped me see the greatness of the word again. Im hopefull to return the favor by helping you see the greatness of being humble before others.
Also respecting that for some their streangth in Jesus is through his love and spirit.
Im sure that you have walked long enough with the Lord to know that it does not matter how long we have worked before God, we all will recieve the same pay.
So if I have been to outspoken I do not mean to be unkind. Its just that Jesus has put it on my heart to speak out. I am ussually a big chicken in this.
Often we cannot see ourselves except through the eyes of another. My hope is to help and show you as you did for me.
In the Love of Jesus , God bless. pickles