Love your enemies.

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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#41
but it is not OUR job to condemn them

or are you Christ? can YOU forgive them their sins against God?
NO, only those against yourself. and those your are COMMANDED to forgive
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#42
but it is not OUR job to condemn them

or are you Christ? can YOU forgive them their sins against God?
NO, only those against yourself. and those your are COMMANDED to forgive
Am I a law court? Do I have authority by which I can condemn? No...Can I rebuke an antichrist, or satanic behaviour or the a manfestation of evil? Yes.

Who has the power to forgive, judging according to His own Council? Jesus Christ.

I am not commanded to accept sin and transgression of the law, and I have no power to forgive it, you say that Jesus will forgive all sin without repentence, I say that is not true, neither do I have the power to grant forgiveness, you say you can both forgive and condemn, ye are not commanded to forgive, you are commanded to hear Christ and follow the law of God written in your mind and heart, where does it say that all the sins of the enemies of Christ are forgiven? It says 'any man who worships the beast will be thrown in the fire', it does not say 'any man who worships the beast will be forgiven', it does not say that. 'forgive' means 'to grant a free pardon', 'remission of offence' and only in Christ can there be remission of sin, yet you claim there is remission outside of Christ, therefore you are incorrect.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#43
well they don't have to worship the beast to persecute you

I doubt all the people I have met who dislike christians are devil/antichrist worshippers
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#44
well they don't have to worship the beast to persecute you

I doubt all the people I have met who dislike christians are devil/antichrist worshippers
Do you have the ability to discern that? You do not have the authority to pardon transgreesion of the law under Covenant, what is the Covenant? It is the New Testament, that is the law in force and this is the redemption of the transgression (Heb. 9:15), it says Jesus Christ is the Mediator of that Testament, and those which are called by this recieve the promise of eternal inheritence, because without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission, and not your own but Christ's blood, there fore there can be no remission or pardon outside the body of Christ, without the provision of Christ the Lord there will be no forgiveness.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#45
well that is my point

it is up to Him, not us :)
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#46
Jesus on the cross forgave without anyone having repented. Shouldn't that be an example?
Jesus asked God to forgive them,otherwise God would have wiped them out there and then.

As it was they said

'.....Let His blood be on our children'

And He DID punish them 38 years later and for many centuries thereafter

Peter was told to forgive 70*7 if he was asked for foregiveness 70*7

forebearance is something different and can be unilateral

If I borrow money from you with ZERO intention of repaying you

are you gonna forgive me and let me swindle you all over again?

what if it is taking food out of the mouths of your family?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
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#47
Reciently, It came to my attention Jesus's words as he died on the cross.
: Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.:
It was the underlined part that peirced my mind. I had always thought it was for those that crucified Jesus. But scripture shows that we all did since the purpose of the cross was for all of our sins.
It made me understand that Jesus saw all of us as not really knowing what we do.
I believe now that just as we cannot know all of Our Lord God, that we can not fully understand the full implications of our sins.
As with all the mysteries of Our Father in heaven we must trust the understanding of forgiveness to Our Lord Jesus.
The true act of trust we can have is to obey that which we are asked to do, knowing that all understanding is held by Our Lord God Our Father.
As for me I will forgive and Love my enemies.
That does not mean you have to trust them though.
God bless, pickles
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#48
Jesus asked God to forgive them,otherwise God would have wiped them out there and then.

As it was they said

'.....Let His blood be on our children'

And He DID punish them 38 years later and for many centuries thereafter

Peter was told to forgive 70*7 if he was asked for foregiveness 70*7

forebearance is something different and can be unilateral

If I borrow money from you with ZERO intention of repaying you

are you gonna forgive me and let me swindle you all over again?

what if it is taking food out of the mouths of your family?
That is my point. When we forgive, we do not atone for their sin, we release there fate to God. I think we should be willing to forgive, leaving their judgement to the just and merciful God. I agree with you in that I don't think we should contribute to their sin by knowingly allowing you to sin against me (and God) again and again. That is also the basis for laws based upon moral stances. By the way, if you asked for money and it would take food out of my families mouth, I would not do it unless directed by an act of special revelation.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#49
if I hadn't forgiven again and again I'd have hurt someone by now (I firmly believe I would)... luckily God has though my former ADD given me the ability to control my anger and not let it out in a physical fashion... now I just need to learn to control my thoughts :p
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#50
The sermon of the mount, of which this is a part, is a picture of God's perfect nature. We need to have His nature to meet this standard. And in truth, this standard is actually how He is, always and forever. He loved us while we were yet far away, actually we were His enemies, but He sent Jesus for us. The new commandment is even better, a higher way than even what we see in this sermon. This sermon is even so a shadow of the reality. The reality is Christ's love in us towards all.

In His peace,
 
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songster

Guest
#51
Jesus on the cross forgave without anyone having repented. Shouldn't that be an example?
I agree with this. Jesus' motivation to pray for those who hated him and tortured him, was not a response to witnessing the repentance of his enemies. He asked the Father to forgive them because of their ignorance. "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they're doing".

How often have we been falsely accused, misunderstood, or hated without a cause, simply because we don't follow the ways of this world. How often have we been alienated or thought strange because we adhere to writings and teachings considered archaic in the worlds eyes. If we were to wait for those who have no understanding of repentance, to somehow repent, there would be hundreds of offenses stored in our minds and hearts.

The word of God instructs us to forgive as our heavenly Father has forgiven us. I often wonder if those who forgive, with the knowledge of a certain scripture which says, 'you will heap coals of fire on their head', are actually forgiving from their hearts. It is impossible to love those whom you have not forgiven.

If I forgive, with the hope or expectation that my enemy will somehow suffer, I have not truly forgiven them, nor can I claim that I truly love them.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#52
If you believe that Christ was praying for ALL those killing Him, His enemies then you will would have to say that all crimes are forgiven, if you can nail the Son of God to a cross then surely all other sins are forgiven, but of course they are not, we know that there is not universal salvation, we know that not everybody will be in the kingdom, and Christ says about His enemies; "bring them before Me and slay them" Luke 19:27. We also know that as Christians when we sin, God just does not forgive and turn a blind eye, He punishes us, we don't get pardoned we get judged, we know there is a judgement to come as well, if all is forgiven, then there is no judgement, might as well say 'do as thou wilt for all is permissible', exept that would be the Satanic doctrine in a nutshell. So was the intercessory prayer of Jesus (Isaiah 53:12) was not universal, Jesus was not praying for the Pharisees whom had conspired the crucifixtion, so if the prayer is specific than it can be reconciled with Luke 19:27 and also with the 'unforgivable sin' and the Judgement Day when not all we recieve forgiveness, the prayer must be specific, He was not praying for all those present, some were there as believers they were lamenting, and some like the thief actually were convicted and converted during the Crucifixtion.

1. Cor 2:8 "Whom none of the princes of this world knew; for had they known it, they would not crucified the Lord of glory". Yet this cannot be extended to all those who had a hand in the death of Jesus, but only to the ignorant multitude, Jesus had told the Pharisees who He was, they were not ignorant, some did know, remember when Herod slaughtered the babies, Herod knew the Kiing had been born, he knew the prophecy so he sought to kill Jesus, he knew what he was doing, but Jesus' prayer was for those present that did not know what they were doing. We could imagine that many had know idea who Jesus was, they just thought it was another criminal being executed, they were not part of the conspiracy, they did not arrange His death, they were just there, not knowing, they can be forgiven, God knows their hearts and minds.

Among the ignorant multitude of Isarelites there were the elect and some already believers, there would have been dissent between those that knew Jesus and that He was the eternal Son of God, and those who had know idea who Jesus was, some of those would have later heard the gospel and converted. Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers, But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fullfilled, repent therefore and be converted."

Here we have Peter in Acts explaining it to those very Israelites that were at the crucifixtion, and Peter calls the brethren and they are called to repent and be converted, and the Holy Spirit is present and this was done, they became Christian, 'those that parted His garments', those in their ignorance were forgiven by the Lord of Glory and they believed.
 
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songster

Guest
#53
[quote=Cup-of-Ruin;214703]If you believe that Christ was praying for ALL those killing Him, His enemies then you will would have to say that all crimes are forgiven, if you can nail the Son of God to a cross then surely all other sins are forgiven, but of course they are not, we know that there is not universal salvation, we know that not everybody will be in the kingdom,
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have to regard my study of the words ' Father forgive them for they know not what they do', as inconclusive. It is not clear who was being addressed. However, it is clear that if we do not forgive, our own sin is not forgiven. This, of course, pertains to offenses commited against us personally, not every offense committed by others against God.

Matthew 6:15

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

We are not able to forgive someone for denying Christ, or for living a lifestyle of sin, but we are most certainly instructed to forgive and to love those who persecute us or anyone who commits a particular offense against us.


Quote: Cup-of-Ruin

... and Christ says about His enemies; "bring them before Me and slay them" Luke 19:27.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Luke 19:27 is clearly in reference to those individuals who reject Jesus as King/Lord, and not referring to a particular offense.

But those enemies of mine 'who did not want me to be king' over them&#8212;bring them here and kill them in front of me.</SPAN>

Quote: Cup-of-Ruin

We also know that as Christians when we sin, God just does not forgive and turn a blind eye, He punishes us, we don't get pardoned we get judged, _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

John 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

John 12:47

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, 'I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world', but to save it.


Punishment/Chastening, significantly differs from judgment.

Hebrews 12:6

because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

The punishment for our sin was upon Jesus, bearing it at the cross. Post Crucifixion chastening is not applied according to the sin committed, but is given in measure in order to correct or to re-align ones relationship with the Father.

Quote: Cup-of-Ruin

we know there is a judgement to come as well, if all is forgiven, then there is no judgement, might as well say 'do as thou wilt for all is permissible', exept that would be the Satanic doctrine in a nutshell.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Believers will not be judged for their sin, nor any evil work, even though we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. If this were the case, no one would be justified.

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:16

a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

It would be a mistake for anyone to assume that a judgement awaits the believer which will subject him/her to punishment for their sins. There will be rewards given for works, but no punishment for sin.
 
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sword

Guest
#54
Jesus prayed for his enemies so that God may forgive them only if they repented. God`s forgiveness has always been conditional; the condition has always been repentance because God is Love but He is also Justice and cannot allow evil to last forever.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#55
ean
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have to regard my study of the words ' Father forgive them for they know not what they do', as inconclusive. It is not clear who was being addressed. However, it is clear that if we do not forgive, our own sin is not forgiven. This, of course, pertains to offenses commited against us personally, not every offense committed by others against God.

Matthew 6:15

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

We are not able to forgive someone for denying Christ, or for living a lifestyle of sin, but we are most certainly instructed to forgive and to love those who persecute us or anyone who commits a particular offense against us.
Matt. 6:15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive your trespasses"

if = ean which implies contingency of circumstance - subjunctive mood, a possible condition which rh future will reveal. John 17:7 shows that is contingent on the will of God, it is he that is doing the will of God.

trespasses = paraptoma, now this word is not used for actual evil willful sin, that word is hamartema which means 'sinful act', but paraptoma means 'a falling aside' a 'a fault', it means falling when you stood straight, we may say 'stumble' and this would be in pursuit, believers sometimes stumble and they are in pursuit of the Law, their not willfully breaking God's laws, their not trampling them in the dust and spitting on them and abusing them, thats hamartema that's different, this is a stumbling when the overall intention is good, that is forgiven or you should patiently forgive others the same, but that forgiveness is only possible by and through Christ as Mediator.



_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

John 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

John 12:47

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, 'I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world', but to save it.


Punishment/Chastening, significantly differs from judgment.
All will be judged for all words and deeds in the flesh.

Hebrews 12:6

because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

The punishment for our sin was upon Jesus, bearing it at the cross. Post Crucifixion chastening is not applied according to the sin committed, but is given in measure in order to correct or to re-align ones relationship with the Father.
Yea, you are still punished, if you sin ye wll be punished to varying degrees.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Believers will not be judged for their sin, nor any evil work, even though we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. If this were the case, no one would be justified.

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:16

a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

It would be a mistake for anyone to assume that a judgement awaits the believer which will subject him/her to punishment for their sins. There will be rewards given for works, but no punishment for sin.
There will be punishment just as there is punishment now. The Bible teaches that 'Faith' has been imputed to you, its not your own, so in regards to that faith, it is a gift by the grace of God, so ye are justified by the faith that was in Christ, thats the faith that God is talking about. Then understanding that God has saved you by His faith, not yours, you must read James "by works was faith made perfect", "Ye see how by works a man is justified and NOT by faith alone".

Many preachers today proclaim that you are saved by your faith alone, all that is a misinterpretation of Paul and a total disregard for James, what the Christian has to understand is that it is not your faith, the faith is given to you so ye shall do good works, and by those works ye will be judged, 'the faith is not of your own' that is what Paul says, and he is right faith is imputed to you, its written on your heart and mind, so'show yourself approved'.
 
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songster

Guest
#56
Jesus prayed for his enemies so that God may forgive them only if they repented. God`s forgiveness has always been conditional; the condition has always been repentance because God is Love but He is also Justice and cannot allow evil to last forever.
The scriptures are clear on this. If we do not forgive, our own sins will not be forgiven. There is no way to misunderstand or misinterpret this. We are also instructed to love our enemies, which is impossible, without forgiving them from our hearts, which is also commanded in scripture. Not every person who offends us in some way will exhibit repentance, nevertheless, we are expected to forgive.

This is an action which is solely the responsibility of the believer who was offended. It is impossible to genuinely love ones enemies without genuinely forgiving offenses committed by these individuals.


Regarding enemies, or those who use, persecute and offend us, we are expected to :

- Forgive from our hearts
- Bless them
- Pray for them

Stephen exhibited this type of intercession as he was stoned. He called on the Lord and asked that his persecutors would not be held accountable for his death.

Acts 7:60 (the stoning of Stephen)

Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep (died).
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#57
The scriptures are clear on this. If we do not forgive, our own sins will not be forgiven.
Well the Greek does not translate as intentional sin or willful transgression of the law, but rather a believer stumbling, that is forgiven.

There is no way to misunderstand or misinterpret this. We are also instructed to love our enemies, which is impossible, without forgiving them from our hearts, which is also commanded in scripture. Not every person who offends us in some way will exhibit repentance, nevertheless, we are expected to forgive.
Love those who are your enemies that are united in Christ within the body of Christ they're are not enemies, Christ gives a different message to those who will not let Him be King, they are not forgiven, it is important to acknowledge this.


Regarding enemies, or those who use, persecute and offend us, we are expected to :

- Forgive from our hearts
- Bless them
- Pray for them

Stephen exhibited this type of intercession as he was stoned. He called on the Lord and asked that his persecutors would not be held accountable for his death.

Acts 7:60 (the stoning of Stephen)

Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep (died).
You know when my own brother betrayed me, and stole from me a large amount of money which ruined my business that I had worked years to establish, I forgave him, he sinned against me but I forgave him, even though I can never get back all that I lost, but he is brethren, like Stephen was amongst brethren, he prays that God does not charge them for their sin, I would pray that God not charge my brother for his sins.

"Sirs, ye are Brethren, why do you wrong one another?" Acts 7:26

But look what stephen says about one who acted against brethren, he relates the story of how Moses killed an Egyptian who attacked one of his brethren Acts 7:24-25

"And seeing one of them suffer wrong, HE DEFENDED HIM, AND AVENGED HIM THAT WAS OPPRESSED, AND SMOTE THE EGYPTION, for Moses supposed his brethren would have understood how that GOD by his hand would deliver them; but they understood not."

Do you see how Stephan differentiates, Moses killed a man out of vengence because he oppressed, Moses was a friend of God, and delivered Israel, now Stephan identifies with Moses being betrayed by his own people, so ask yourself if Stephan did not hold this sin against Israel who are the people that he did, whom are the oppressors, the sin is commited against Stephan? Well just read earlier it says 'those called the synagogue', they wernt the House of Israel they were called 'the synagogue', and these ones disputed with Stephan and they 'stirred up the people' who were Stephan's brethren and 'set up false witnesses', so they conspired!

Do you know who the Libertines were? do you know they were not from Israel but were expelled from Rome in 20 A.D. These Jews that organised the stoning of Stephan were NOT his brethren but they did not carry out the order, no, no, they got his own people to do it, you see why Stephan asked God forgive his own people because the charge of sin lay at the feet of the Synagogue of Satan who were not Israel, just like the did to Jesus they did the same to Stephan, they do the same today, again, and again, where will it end?
 
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pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#58
Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
Could it simply be that Jesus not only forgave the sins as proof of his love for us but also to show that failing to forgive is a sin.
An act of sacrifice and witness of what we must do?
God bless, pickles
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#59
Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
Could it simply be that Jesus not only forgave the sins as proof of his love for us but also to show that failing to forgive is a sin.
An act of sacrifice and witness of what we must do?
God bless, pickles
Jesus said if they do not follow, if they reject His law, if they reject His faith, if they attack His body and His brethren, if they sin against His Holy Spirit, if they do not do His will, if they will not have it they He be King of His creation, then 'ye will die in your sins' and ye 'will be cast into the lake of fire' along with Satan, God did not spare the angels that sinned, so He is not giving a free pardon to all at the judgement seat, if I told you that all is forgiven and all will be forgiven and I forgive all those who sin against Christ and that Christ forgives all sins against Him, then I would not be telling you the truth, the truth is, 'unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish', all is not forgiven, but in Christ, acceptence of His will and law, in that, under that provision all is forgiven, its conditional, you cannot reject His will and be forgiven, there is no provision under the law for that, without His blood there is no remission of sin.

It would be far easier for me, and I would be far more popular and recieved much more worldly rewards and status if I just went along with 'do as thou wilt', 'all you need is love', its not easy to explain these difficult teachings, but its the truth, there is division between Christianity and the world of the antichrist, there is a difference. And Jesus explained this difference and so does Stephan, he forgives those innocent brethren that stumbled and were deceived, but for those who would not have it that Christ is king, those that conspire, whom teach and practice false testimony knowingly, willfully, I tell them as Jesus told them, 'Ye WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN', no one who works against the sovereign Lord of the universe is going to get away with it, unless they repent and make Jesus the sovereign Lord of their lives, then there will be forgiveness, will not the Judge of all the earth do right?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
149
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#60
Cup, I understand what you are saying, One must accept Jesus to be saved.
No dispute there.
This is simply obeying what Jesus asked us to do.
Love and pray for your enemies.
If I hold hate against my enemy I give them power over me. I give them the fuel to harm me.
By praying for them and Loving them I release them to God Our father.
Im not God, I cannot know who will or will not be saved. That belongs to God. I can only do what I am asked and trust in Jesus.
Failing to forgive is a sin. Failing to love another is a sin also.
How are we to win souls if we hate?
I do not dispute that there are those that reject Jesus and become one kind of enemy.
But do you want to explain to God Our Father when you stand before him how you decided that you were the one that knew who would be saved and who would not?
I can only do what Our Lord Jesus has put on my heart.
I know you must do the same.
All we can do is hope that we all have carried a part of the truth and been obedient to Our Lord Jesus.
God bless, pickles
.
 
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