Lucifer's fall

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
13
1
0
#1
What year was Lucifer denied access to heaven?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#2
No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

Adam Clarke's commentary

"Verse 12.


O Lucifer, son of the morning

The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
.

O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

Verse13.

I will ascend into heaven

I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
 
Dec 9, 2017
83
11
8
#3
No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

Adam Clarke's commentary

"Verse 12.


O Lucifer, son of the morning

The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
.

O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

Verse13.

I will ascend into heaven

I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
OK, does this give us a hint as to who satan is?
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,678
474
83
25
#4
No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

Adam Clarke's commentary

"Verse 12.


O Lucifer, son of the morning

The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
.

O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

Verse13.

I will ascend into heaven

I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
Then what was his "original" name clever Corg?
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,678
474
83
25
#5
OK, does this give us a hint as to who satan is?
It gives us a hint as to what "doesn't matter" satan or devil whatever he's called he's not as important as God/Jesus.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,772
537
113
#6
What year was Lucifer denied access to heaven?
We are not told, and it is really none of our business. As to Locutus saying "there is no such thing as a Lucifer", he should go and have a chat with the Luciferians. They will light a lucifer for him.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#7
Satan is not "Lucifer" the text where Jerome invented the word is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar..
 

Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
13
1
0
#8
I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,772
537
113
#9
Satan is not "Lucifer" the text where Jerome invented the word is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar..
Like I said, have a chat with the Luciferians, and they will light a lucifer for you.

One thing is certain: Lucifer/Satan is not a being to be worshipped, nor is he anyone to be treated lightly. He is a very powerful being and the enemy of our souls. The Bible describes him as “the devil [who] prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). Those who get involved with him will eventually regret it, as he will devour their souls as a reward for their worship. “Resist him,” Peter exhorts in verse 9, “standing firm in the faith.” The faith he means is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, because He alone can save us from hell, the ultimate destination of all who dabble in Luciferianism.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Luciferianism.html
 
Last edited:

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,772
537
113
#10
I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
Well it does not matter because we are not told anything about this matter. It would be idle speculation to discuss that, and idle speculation is not encouraged by God.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#11
As can be seen from the KJV the translators while following Jerome's Vulgate chose to alert the reader to actual Hebrew wording of O' day star - which means that to insert a name here is totally without merit:


 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
172
63
#12
I have the Nave's topical bible and he attributes Lucifer to Nebuchadnezzar. I have seen Lucifer being attributed to Belshazzar, too.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,772
537
113
#13
I have the Nave's topical bible and he attributes Lucifer to Nebuchadnezzar. I have seen Lucifer being attributed to Belshazzar, too.
The context of the passage where "Lucifer" is found makes it crystal clear that it is not about any human being. Only the highest angel in heaven -- a cherub -- could imagine any of this or speak about being like the most High God. And the rest of Scripture shows us that Satan desires the worship which rightly belongs to God. He even tried to get the Son of God to worship him.

For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High...

Here is the background to these blasphemous thoughts (Ezek 28:13-15)

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone
wasthy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was foun
d in thee.

Because similar blasphemous thoughts were also in the minds of the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they are connected to Lucifer's evil thoughts, but it should be clear that there was only one "anointed cherub" who rebelled against God and became ha Satan -- the Adversary.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#14
Wrong, the text is using hyperbole and flowery language typical of the prophets when they describe things - in this case a powerful ruler - nothing to do with satan at all at all.

We see Jesus using similar language:

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Does anybody really believe that the Capernaum boys were floating around in the heavenlies?
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,678
474
83
25
#15
I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
Glad I amused you lol,but seriously do you think God wants us speculating on "trivial things" like "names" particularly regarding"satan"?
After all considering he is cast out we all "know his eventual fate" better to trust in "God's promises than something as "trivial" as "satan's name" in king james bible his proper name is lucifer,in others he is probably referred to as primarily satan or the devil,learning his name doesn't tell us anything concerning him so as I said in a sense it "doesn't matter" his fall is "important to note" his "name" not so much.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#16
This is how stupid this "lucifer" bizness gets - we have Jerome in the Vulgate naming satan lucifer but then applying the same name to Christ in Peter's letter:





2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Will the real "lucifer" stand up..


But hey, stick with the traditions of the RC church by all means.
 
Dec 9, 2017
83
11
8
#17
It gives us a hint as to what "doesn't matter" satan or devil whatever he's called he's not as important as God/Jesus.
You are missing the whole point, satan is a man, Nebuchadnezzar:)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,772
537
113
#18
You are missing the whole point, satan is a man...
That is DEFINITELY NOT what the Bible reveals. So do you just make up your beliefs as you go along?
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,848
180
63
#19
In Hebrew it is morning star, son of the dawn.

interesting!