Mary Mother of Jesus: Sinless?

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Was Mary the Mother of Jesus without sin?


  • Total voters
    40

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,120
649
113
#1
I recently had a few cordial conversations with two men whom were Catholic. Of course the topic of Mary had come up. Their contention was Mary was without original sin and that’s why she was chosen as the vessel for the birth of Christ.

I had asked where in scripture this was ever alluded to and the response was the message Gabriel gave her. “Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” This comes from Luke 1:28. The claim that Mary was sinless is predicated from this passage. Mary had grace which made her sinless.

We decided to view that text in the original Koine Greek and the actual translation reads: “ Greetings you favored with grace the Lord is with you.” This would indicate that Mary was not full of grace but had grace upon her.

I also asked where else in scripture is Mary stated as being sinless? Of course scripture never states that. We ended our conversations on the premises that we would agree to disagree.

If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
5,559
1,709
113
#2
If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
There is no evidence that Mary was sinless. Like much of RCC doctrine their "evidence" is "Tradition."

Even though it was held as tradition within the RCC for a long time, it wasn't codified into doctrine until 1854 by Pope Pius IX
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,260
2,050
113
#3
Mary was not sinless.

All have sinned and fell short.


(she needed Christ as much as we do)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,574
4,062
113
#4
If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
Looking for "evidence" in matters of faith is as futile as looking for evidence that Mr. Trump did anything wrong in carrying out his duties as President.

For committed Catholics, Mary was sinless. Devotion to Mary is part and parcel of the Catholic religion, which regards her as Queen of Heaven. Hence the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (of Mary). She is called "the mother of God" by both Catholics and Orthodox, but that is not how she is described in the Bible.

Mary was human, therefore not free of the sin nature. Consequently she recognized that she needed a Savior. By the same token she must have been living righteously, just like Zacharias and Elisabeth: There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5,6)

And there is absolutely no doubt that Mary was highly favored by being chosen as the mother of Jesus (not the mother of God, which would mean the triune Godhead). And the Bible says that Joseph was a just (or righteous) man also. It is significant, that whenever the Lord Jesus Christ addressed His mother, He called her "Woman". That was respectful, but also maintained the distance between God the Son and His human mother. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, and did not become the Son of God at His birth (as some mistakenly believe).
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
2,513
443
83
#5
Mary died proving she had sin. The wages of sin is death. God resurrected Jesus from the dead because he was sinless.
 

Isaiah263

Active member
Jan 12, 2020
194
191
43
#6
"Hail Mary" - there's the warning sign right there. I grew up in the Catholic religion. I could go on and on about their false teachings, but the gist is this is a ploy by none other than Satan to set up idolatry to deceive people from worshiping the True God.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,120
649
113
#7
"Hail Mary" - there's the warning sign right there. I grew up in the Catholic religion. I could go on and on about their false teachings, but the gist is this is a ploy by none other than Satan to set up idolatry to deceive people from worshiping the True God.
I have to agree with you. Although many Catholics claim not to worship idols, it’s clearly seen throughout the Church’s history. Are there those that are saved who are Catholic? Absolutely; but this is not due to Catholicism.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,321
2,529
113
58
#8
Luke 1:47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

From Mary's song...
...xox...
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,784
2,011
113
#9
what woman wouldn't be moved if they were going to give birth to The Christ Child???
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,176
878
113
#10
I'm reminded of an Easter program that my former church put on almost 25 years ago. One of the songs was about how Mary felt after Jesus had been crucified and had died. At the start of the song, the singer (as Mary) gave a brief monologue about how she realized that although she had given birth to the Savior, she still needed Him to save her.

For the record, the song also featured a male singer (as Joseph) singing the second verse.

:D
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,321
2,529
113
58
#11
what woman wouldn't be moved if they were going to give birth to The Christ Child???
I agree...
I as a mother myself have often wondered how her heart felt knowing what was going on before her very eyes when she saw her Son our Savior in His horrendous state before and after His crucifiction , I can only imagine...

And all the things she pondered in her heart , Oh how she must of rejoiced when her Son was risen , I look forward to hearing her story of our beloved...
...xox...
 

Isaiah263

Active member
Jan 12, 2020
194
191
43
#12
I have to agree with you. Although many Catholics claim not to worship idols, it’s clearly seen throughout the Church’s history. Are there those that are saved who are Catholic? Absolutely; but this is not due to Catholicism.
Yes! Agreed. Romans 10:9-10
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,120
649
113
#13
I agree...
I as a mother myself have often wondered how her heart felt knowing what was going on before her very eyes when she saw her Son our Savior in His horrendous state before and after His crucifiction , I can only imagine...

And all the things she pondered in her heart , Oh how she must of rejoiced when her Son was risen , I look forward to hearing her story of our beloved...
...xox...
The best portrayal of Mary I have seen was of her in The Passion. It’s showed a mother who loved her son and how her heart broke when he was crucified. She knew why he had to go to the cross and rejoiced at His resurrection.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
1,499
1,580
113
63
#14
Hello @Aerials1978, concerning Mary, the Library of the Fathers is very telling as it makes it clear that the cult of Mary worship began in a BIG way while she was still alive (for instance, one of the ECF's talks of people coming from everywhere to find Mary, believing that they would be blessed somehow if they could only touch the breasts that nursed Messiah .. yikes, poor Mary :oops:).

In another teaching from the ECF, Mary (who ascended into Heaven ~before~ she died, according to RC tradition) went to Hell and commanded the Father to release the entirety of the reprobate population so that she could save them and lead them to Heaven ... and He obeyed her.

One of the sad things about the RCC's excessive worship of Mary IMHO is that it has all but ruined what she was actually meant to be in the hearts and minds of believers. And thanks to the RCC, when we hear terms like "The Ascension" or "The Immaculate Conception", terms that are rightly associated with Jesus alone, many (most?) now think of Mary instead :(

Co-Redemptrix, Queen of Heaven, Immaculate Conception, Sinless, Ever-Virgin, the Ascension, etc., (and yes, "full of grace", rather than "favored one") and, if you think about it, omnipresent/omniscient too (because how else could she know and answer the prayers of the "faithful" from every corner of the the globe 24/7?). A Quadrinity has been suggested, and it certainly seems the inevitable outcome of continuing in such beliefs, does it not?

Mary is comfortable (I have been told by a number of RC's), and far more accessible than Jesus (who is always remembered by RC's in one of three ways, as a baby in His mother's arms, hanging on the Cross, or coming as their Judge), so it's easy to understand how Mary has come to replace Jesus in so many different & unfortunate ways :confused:

~Deut
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,293
2,075
113
www.christiancourier.com
#15
I recently had a few cordial conversations with two men whom were Catholic. Of course the topic of Mary had come up. Their contention was Mary was without original sin and that’s why she was chosen as the vessel for the birth of Christ.

I had asked where in scripture this was ever alluded to and the response was the message Gabriel gave her. “Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” This comes from Luke 1:28. The claim that Mary was sinless is predicated from this passage. Mary had grace which made her sinless.

We decided to view that text in the original Koine Greek and the actual translation reads: “ Greetings you favored with grace the Lord is with you.” This would indicate that Mary was not full of grace but had grace upon her.

I also asked where else in scripture is Mary stated as being sinless? Of course scripture never states that. We ended our conversations on the premises that we would agree to disagree.

If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
I think the simple answer is, when God's angel recognized Mary as she who was full of grace, and God's unmerited grace is the primary factor of our Salvation, that Mary was she who was highly favored by God to not be like unto other women of her day. And this so that she would then bear to life the son of man, the Son of God, Emmanuel (God with us) .
Jesus couldn't be born to grow to have to answer for His sins, as other male babies are, because He was knitted together in Mary's womb by His Holy Spirit. He was not conceived by the usual means of human reproduction because His father was not Joseph, but God.
Mary , in carrying that Holy Spirit within her womb would have to be made special by God for the task; full of grace. Grace then meaning exactly what it means to us today.

In the Greek the verb, κεχαριτωμένη , the word for highly favored ,(Mary was highly favored by God), means precisely that;highly favored.
Englishman's Concordance
(Highly favored) κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē) — 1 Occurrence
Luke 1:28 V-RPM/P-NFS
GRK: εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος
NAS: to her, Greetings, favored one! The Lord
KJV: Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord
INT: said Greetings [you] favored one the Lord [is]



Strong's Concordance
Full of grace, the Greek verb: charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.



Therefore, I think when Mary was highly favored by God and endowed with God's grace, that while she may not have been sinless being she was human, her sins were blotted out because she was endowed with God's grace and for His purpose of bringing the Messiah into this world.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,120
649
113
#16
I think the simple answer is, when God's angel recognized Mary as she who was full of grace, and God's unmerited grace is the primary factor of our Salvation, that Mary was she who was highly favored by God to not be like unto other women of her day. And this so that she would then bear to life the son of man, the Son of God, Emmanuel (God with us) .
Jesus couldn't be born to grow to have to answer for His sins, as other male babies are, because He was knitted together in Mary's womb by His Holy Spirit. He was not conceived by the usual means of human reproduction because His father was not Joseph, but God.
Mary , in carrying that Holy Spirit within her womb would have to be made special by God for the task; full of grace. Grace then meaning exactly what it means to us today.

In the Greek the verb, κεχαριτωμένη , the word for highly favored ,(Mary was highly favored by God), means precisely that;highly favored.
Englishman's Concordance
(Highly favored) κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē) — 1 Occurrence
Luke 1:28 V-RPM/P-NFS
GRK: εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος
NAS: to her, Greetings, favored one! The Lord
KJV: Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord
INT: said Greetings [you] favored one the Lord [is]



Strong's Concordance
Full of grace, the Greek verb: charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.



Therefore, I think when Mary was highly favored by God and endowed with God's grace, that while she may not have been sinless being she was human, her sins were blotted out because she was endowed with God's grace and for His purpose of bringing the Messiah into this world.
Thanks for posting. Would your contention be that because she was chosen by God that she had her sins removed for the sole purpose of giving birth to Jesus?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,837
2,217
113
#17
Being a virgin doesnt mean you are without sin its just you have not known a man yet. There are other ways to sin apart from losing your virginity.

I think catholics seem to equate being a virgin with being sinless.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,124
569
113
#18
I recently had a few cordial conversations with two men whom were Catholic. Of course the topic of Mary had come up. Their contention was Mary was without original sin and that’s why she was chosen as the vessel for the birth of Christ.

I had asked where in scripture this was ever alluded to and the response was the message Gabriel gave her. “Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” This comes from Luke 1:28. The claim that Mary was sinless is predicated from this passage. Mary had grace which made her sinless.

We decided to view that text in the original Koine Greek and the actual translation reads: “ Greetings you favored with grace the Lord is with you.” This would indicate that Mary was not full of grace but had grace upon her.

I also asked where else in scripture is Mary stated as being sinless? Of course scripture never states that. We ended our conversations on the premises that we would agree to disagree.

If anyone else has evidence that Mary was sinless, I would certainly be interested in hearing this and why.
You should be asking this question in a Catholic forum, if you want to get the other side of the argument.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
#19
Being a virgin doesnt mean you are without sin its just you have not known a man yet. There are other ways to sin apart from losing your virginity.

I think catholics seem to equate being a virgin with being sinless.
Agree, And sex is not sin in marriage at all .. 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
954
471
63
#20
Mary had her hands full with 4 other sons and at least 2 daughters .. She even lost track of Jesus one time ..
Mary was full of grace, a great Jewish mother and wife but with a husband and 7 kids or more how could she possibly be sinless, that would be the biggest miracle of all time ..