Mat 25: The Sheep and the Goats and Charitable Works.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 26, 2021
820
355
63
India
#1
Dear Friends, let's discuss the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, and the Charitable Good Works of Love of God and Neighbor commanded in it. The Lord is clear in this passage that He takes everything done to the Poor as done to Himself, and as not done to them as not done to Himself. Hence, he who did not feed the hungry did not feed Jesus Christ in His hunger; he who did not clothe the naked did not clothe Jesus Christ in His nakedness; he who did not give drink to the thirsty did not quench the Painful Thirst of Jesus Christ, and so on.

Thoughts on this important passage? Do they not suggest that, as James says in chapter 2, that the righteousness that is begun by faith, is completed and perfected by good works, i.e.: "20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (Jam 2:20-22). As Abraham began to be righteous by faith, and increased in righteousness by good works of love of God and neighbor done in deep and true faith, can we say that the below passage says the same for us Christians?

Since He calls them His Sheep, it is evident that they were believers. That is not in dispute. The question is about love.

Also, from the fact that the Lord says the righteous went to Heaven at least in part owing to the good works they did, and the wicked went to Hell for the sins of not loving God in the Poor, doesn't that suggest that good works are important? Or, will someone say, the good works only proved who had faith and who did not?

Mat 25:The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
977
502
93
#2
Lamb: baby sheep.
Kid: baby goat.

Jesus describes sheep as inheriting eternal life while goats go to eternal punishment.

Strangely enough we refer to children as kids. Maybe it’s time we refer to them as lambs.
 
Aug 18, 2021
1,076
552
113
#3
God's commandments are completely fulfilled by, "Love of God and Neighbor'.

In the 'Judgement of Nations' Jesus shows us that we show our love of God through love of neighbor. Can't have one without the other.

And in the 'Judgement of Nations' Jesus gives us a clear case to how we will be judged as to our eternal salvation or damnation. The wording is concise and straightforward, very difficult to miss the meaning.

Each of us needs to look at ourselves as to do we love God and Neighbor.
 
Nov 12, 2021
781
247
43
#4
Or, will someone say, the good works only proved who had faith and who did not?
I think you do not have a complete understanding of how powerful God's faith is -----God kind of Faith Produces Good Works ----God' kind of Faith always requires a positive response and will propel the person to obey God's command -----Abraham did not waver in his response to God to take Isaac to be killed ---his Faith in God was enough to make Abraham act ------

Abraham trusted God to either resurrect his son or give him a new son ----as Abraham said his servant he brought with him ---------------watch carefully -----

This is important to see and get ------Genesis 22:1-4--verse 4 ----Abraham says ---WE not I But WE will COME BACK to you LATER -------Abraham was coming back with this SON

Genesis 22

3 In the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took Isaac and two servants with him. He cut the wood for the sacrifice. Then they went to the place where God told them to go. 4 After they traveled three days, Abraham looked up, and in the distance he saw the place where they were going. 5 Then he said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go to that place and worship. Then we will come back to you later.”

Faith needs trust ----you can love God but not trust God to bring about His Promises ------

Food for thought -------
 
Aug 20, 2020
197
78
28
Northern Kentucky
#5
This reading is read at Evening Prayer on the Saturday Trinity XXIII. Fitting as this is one of the last Sundays in Trinitytide before Advent and thus one of the last readings of the Church year.

This is the third parable describing Judgement. The king has gathered all nations and begins to separate them, sheep on the right, goats on the left. What is lost here is that Goats and Sheep in this part of the world look very similar so it takes a trained eye to be able to differentiate the species. They are separated because of what they are. Sheep do sheepy things, like feeding hungry, clothing the naked. In other words works of mercy. Its part of their nature so they do not realize they are performing such works. Goats on the other hand do goaty things which do not include works of mercy. So the Judgement in a sense has already taken place by fact they are goats or sheep. Not by what they have done before the Son of Man comes in Glory. In other words it isn't works that made them sheep, it was the fact they were sheep that produced their good works.
 
Nov 12, 2021
781
247
43
#6
The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats ------

My View

This Parable that Jesus gives here is Describing His Judgment on His Second Return After the Tribulation and before the New Jerusalem is in place -----

Many people who say they are Christians are not True Christians -----so the false Christians do not possess the right faith their faith is intellectual Faith --and does not produce good Works -it is not Saving Faith ------which is God kind of Faith which produces Good Works -----these people are the Goats and Jesus puts them on the left as they are going to Hell -----

The True Christians who have the right kind of Faith do the Good Works ------as Faith propels them to be obedient to what pleases God -----these are the Sheep and they are put on the right and will reside in the New Jerusalem with Jesus ------

Jesus said --not everyone who says Lord -Lord will enter God's Kingdom ------

If you truly Agape God and have the God kind of Faith inbirthed in you ----you will bear good fruit ------the Right Faith moves you to obey and look after your Neighbour -----and trust God will look after you ----
 
Apr 21, 2021
4,153
1,619
113
#7
Yes, works are evidence of faith. But our faith must be in the true God and the true Jesus. If our works involve bowing to a wafer, or a Mary idol, then our faith is clearly misplaced and will be of no benefit to us. We can have love coming out of our ears but unless our love is for the true Jesus that love can't save us.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
3,958
661
113
Oregon
#8
.
There is a brief period of history in the future called the time of Jacob's
Trouble, a.k.a. the Tribulation. It will be a time of intense anti Semitism;
even worse than Hitler's.

At its conclusion, Messiah will return to earth to set up his millennial
kingdom, but first he must sift the Tribulation's survivors: blessing the
ones who aided his countrymen, and exiling the ones who didn't.
_
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
7,533
2,796
113
#9
Dear Friends, let's discuss the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, and the Charitable Good Works of Love of God and Neighbor commanded in it. The Lord is clear in this passage that He takes everything done to the Poor as done to Himself, and as not done to them as not done to Himself. Hence, he who did not feed the hungry did not feed Jesus Christ in His hunger; he who did not clothe the naked did not clothe Jesus Christ in His nakedness; he who did not give drink to the thirsty did not quench the Painful Thirst of Jesus Christ, and so on.

Thoughts on this important passage? Do they not suggest that, as James says in chapter 2, that the righteousness that is begun by faith, is completed and perfected by good works, i.e.: "20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (Jam 2:20-22). As Abraham began to be righteous by faith, and increased in righteousness by good works of love of God and neighbor done in deep and true faith, can we say that the below passage says the same for us Christians?

Since He calls them His Sheep, it is evident that they were believers. That is not in dispute. The question is about love.

Also, from the fact that the Lord says the righteous went to Heaven at least in part owing to the good works they did, and the wicked went to Hell for the sins of not loving God in the Poor, doesn't that suggest that good works are important? Or, will someone say, the good works only proved who had faith and who did not?

Mat 25:The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
yes faith needs to eventually start walking the walk and our deeds is what will determine our judgement

it’s the spirit in the gospel it’s not that we need to check off an amount of boxes “ I fed someone gave clothes to another gave a drink to a thirsty man check now I’m in “

but what Jesus is teaching there and what your also correctly saying could be summed up like this as well as many other ways

“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: ( what he did for us )

and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.( what we’re supposed to do for others )

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe can say “I love everyone “ but what tells the truth is how we treat people . If our believes brother was hungry we’re going to feed him not say “ Awee that’s sad he’s hungry “

If our dear sister has real
Needs like food and shelter and drink and even just our time like visiting a prisoner companionship is what some really really need

about the gospel is about moving us to act right when we pretend we’re not supposed to do any works we’re never going to ever change because that’s one of the changes to
Love from “ I am not required to do anything “ to “ jesus loves me so I’m supposed to go love other people with my deeds like he did for me “

In the end how we treat others who cross our path in life especially those who are in need is going to be what determines our eternal home
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
7,533
2,796
113
#10
This reading is read at Evening Prayer on the Saturday Trinity XXIII. Fitting as this is one of the last Sundays in Trinitytide before Advent and thus one of the last readings of the Church year.

This is the third parable describing Judgement. The king has gathered all nations and begins to separate them, sheep on the right, goats on the left. What is lost here is that Goats and Sheep in this part of the world look very similar so it takes a trained eye to be able to differentiate the species. They are separated because of what they are. Sheep do sheepy things, like feeding hungry, clothing the naked. In other words works of mercy. It’s part of their nature so they do not realize they are performing such works. Goats on the other hand do goaty things which do not include works of mercy. So the Judgement in a sense has already taken place by fact they are goats or sheep. Not by what they have done before the Son of Man comes in Glory. In other words it isn't works that made them sheep, it was the fact they were sheep that produced their good works.

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To accept the truth is what leads us to change our ways leads us to repent. Because we accept what’s plainly there it’s building our faith correctly we have to start believing what’s there that shapes our faith


so we don’t fall for “ grace means nothing else applies your saved if you thy ink you need to do good you’ve fallen away from faith and grace “

Instead we can believe what Jesus and the apostles taught that will
Lead us home if we don’t reject it and try to explain why it isn’t true

The parable there is

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to let in the understanding that we need to repent and do good will lead us there
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
1,266
669
113
#11
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

All scripture is written to the soul of men and to the spirit of men. Only those who are alive with the spirit of God can understand the words that are spirit.

The words I speak are Spirit and life.”

The unspiritual will make a religion out of the words. They will know no better than to perceive a list of “duties and obligations”. The Roman church is like this. Eventually, this will lead to the inclusion of other demonic religions, like Islam, who participate in the same activity. We are seeing this today from the RCC and other groups.

So let’s look at the spiritual understanding of the above passage.

I was hungry and you gave me something to eat = Jesus is the bread of life, you shared Jesus with me
I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink = Jesus is the living water, you shared Jesus with me
I was a stranger and you invited me in = all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and included in the One Man. You helped me become a member of the nation of God.
I was naked and you clothed me = all in Christ put on Christ
I was sick and you visited me = You brought me the Spirit who heals me And washed me with the water of the Word.
I was in prison and you came to visit me = the gates of hell do not keep the message of the gospel out. You brought Christ to me when I was a prisoner of the evil one.

The sheep hear His voice which is not the voice of the RCC or the imams of Islam.
 
Nov 26, 2021
820
355
63
India
#13
Thanks, all, for the responses. I think the Parable shows the importance of what are called the Corporal Works of Mercy: "The various groups of figures composing the scene symbolically illustrate the seven corporal acts of mercy: to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty, to clothe the naked, to give shelter to travellers, to visit the sick, to visit the imprisoned, and to bury the dead." https://www.dulwichpicturegallery.o...on/601-650/the-seven-corporal-works-of-mercy/ Evangelism per se is not the direct meaning, although if you want to share food with the poor, which is so good, you'll understand why you must share Jesus, who is the Bread of Life, even with those are poor by not having Him also.

Pilgrimshope, 100% agreed with your posts. Thanks for sharing the verses.

I think 1 Cor 3:13-15 is also relevant. Those who do good works with faith in Christ will be richly rewarded for it: "13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

The first portion shows that each person's good works will be rewarded on Judgment Day. That some did very few good works and thus had their works burned up, suffered loss, and yet were saved but only as through the flames shows that sanctification is not automatic. It requires our efforts and co-operation with God's Grace. Some do it, and so are richly rewarded for it by the Goodness of God. Others neglect it, and thus lose many rewards and suffer. Both are saved, though.

To respond to those who quoted me:
I think you do not have a complete understanding of how powerful God's faith is -----God kind of Faith Produces Good Works ----God' kind of Faith always requires a positive response and will propel the person to obey God's command -----Abraham did not waver in his response to God to take Isaac to be killed ---his Faith in God was enough to make Abraham act ------

Abraham trusted God to either resurrect his son or give him a new son ----as Abraham said his servant he brought with him ---------------watch carefully -----

This is important to see and get ------Genesis 22:1-4--verse 4 ----Abraham says ---WE not I But WE will COME BACK to you LATER -------Abraham was coming back with this SON

Genesis 22

3 In the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took Isaac and two servants with him. He cut the wood for the sacrifice. Then they went to the place where God told them to go. 4 After they traveled three days, Abraham looked up, and in the distance he saw the place where they were going. 5 Then he said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go to that place and worship. Then we will come back to you later.”

Faith needs trust ----you can love God but not trust God to bring about His Promises ------

Food for thought -------
True, faith is important. It is the foundational virtue of supernatural life, without which we cannot please God, as Hebrews 11 says: "6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Yet, St. Paul says love is the higher virtue in 1 Cor 13: "2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." Hence, even a faith that moves mountains is of no avail if we do not have love.

Resident Alien, if you're referring to Holy Communion, as I think you are, please study John 6, 1 Cor 10 and 1 Cor 11 on that. Holy Communion is not a mere symbol, as some seem to think. It is Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ.

Will cite just one of the relevant passages, I'm sure you know the others (otherwise I will give you the verse also in the next post), which is 1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

Have you ever asked yourself what communion with the blood of Christ means. Picture yourself standing at the Foot of the Cross when Christ was Crucified and kissing His feet with devotion and love. Would not some of His Precious Blood enter your mouth? Holy Communion with His Precious Blood is a bit like that, although this is just an analogy.
 
Nov 26, 2021
820
355
63
India
#14
Regarding Blessed Mother Mary, at the least, all Christians agree she was a holy Woman, right? Just like Abraham was. And she is called Blessed among women, just like Abraham was called blessed in the OT. Here is Luk 1: "28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Blessed here means Saintly. As the Lord Himself is Blessed, so is His Blessed Mother Blessed. What is unreasonable in this?

Luke 1 continues: "41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!". Blessed Mary was certainly a highly blessed woman. I'm not entering the other controversies here, as that's not the topic. Btw, do you call her blessed? She herself prophesied: "48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed."

Images of the True God or His Saints (blessed ones) are not idols of any false god. They are there not for worship, as with false gods, which is idolatry, but they are there for contemplation and meditation, like the image of God Crucified for us.

As for Evangelism or sharing Jesus, I agree, Aaron, it can be a secondary spiritual meaning of the passage, but it is not the primary literal one. The primary literal one is about loving your neighbor and relieving his bodily necessities like food.

Here is another passage on loving our neighbor in 1 John 3: "The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another ...
The Outworking of Love
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

God Bless.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
1,264
608
113
60
#17
How many people really love themselves -----that is the question ??????

And that command was changed by Jesus ----to Love agape your neighbour as I have Loved you ------
I think what the commandment has in mind is that people, however misguided it may seem at times, do what they believe is best for themselves and their self-interest. And the keeping of the commandment would, therefore, be setting aside our self-interest and replace that with the other person's interest. Much as in Philippians 2:3...Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem others better than themselves...
 
Nov 26, 2021
820
355
63
India
#18
Here in India today, on a beach, I saw a poor child with nothing to eat or drink begging for some food. It was very sad, but so many gave him nothing. I bought him some chai (tea) and a samosa. Only the Gospel deeply lived can change the world.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
1,264
608
113
60
#19
Here in India today, on a beach, I saw a poor child with nothing to eat or drink begging for some food. It was very sad, but so many gave him nothing. I bought him some chai (tea) and a samosa. Only the Gospel deeply lived can change the world.
Amen. Always preach Christ...speak if you have to.
 
Nov 26, 2021
820
355
63
India
#20
Amen. Always preach Christ...speak if you have to.
Amen. Here in India, thanks just to Mother Theresa's good example, Nirmala Joshi, who was born in a Hindu Brahmin family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmala_Joshi) accepted Baptism and Christ and later joined the Missionaries of Charity herself.

I also highly appreciate Pastor Rick Warren on this. He and his wife began with giving 10% of their income, just like all of us. But as God blessed them more and more financially, and they became more and more prosperous, each year they increased not only the amount but also the percentage of their donations. They finally arrived at 90%! So-called reverse tithing:

Of course, he's a Millionaire, and not all of us can afford to do that. Still it sets a good example for Millionaires, and for the rest of us, it's a challenge to increase the % at least by 1-2% every year, if not 5% odd, and also give some of it to the Poor.

"I just know that God is calling on my life, that three years ago when the book came out the three major things that happened were the success of the book and the affluence and influence that came with it. In one quarter it earned $9 million (in royalties) alone ...

reverse tithing Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven."

Source: https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2005/10/rick-warrens-second-reformation.aspx