Matthew 6:9-13

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,203
2,711
113
#1
Matthew 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11) Give us this day our daily bread.
12)
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Ever wonder why Jesus said we should pray this way? Hmm I mean, have our debts not already been forgiven now and forevermore? Why should we ask for them to be forgiven when we pray?

Do we have to ask for forgiveness in order for God to apply the precious blood of Christ which atones for our sin?

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What about our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Do we ask them?

James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Read More...)


I am just concerned that when folks start telling others they don't have to worry, all their sins are already forgiven,,,,,,,,they could well be doing grave harm to that person........... OSAS'ers say they don't believe it is a License to sin/live however they want, yet, when someone asks if they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin they just committed, the OSAS'ers tell them "No. All your sins have already been forgiven."

How is that NOT a License to live as one chooses without concern for any sin they might commit?

This IS NOT about OSAS..........it's about IF we need to ask for forgiveness for a sin we commit today/tomorrow, next week......whatever? Or, can we just go our merry way and not give it a second thought?

Seriously, someone NEEDS to establish the BASE LINE for what needs to be done when a person sins after they come to Christ. I am not speaking of "willful sin," but sins of Omission........slips/whatever......
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#2
Men a man gets saved, for the first time in his life he has been given the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is not just a dormant passenger in the car of our life. He is a vibrant, active force that speaks to us. What we used to refer to as our conscience (everyone has one lost or saved) is now much stronger and more convicting. It is the Holy Spirit's role to make us feel close to God or very far away. As a Christian senses that there is space between himself and God the Holy Spirit convinces Him to plead the Blood. As we grow in grace . . . and . . . truth, we are more and more in tuned to His leading in our life.

The Holy Spirit gives us a desire to read the Word, and as we read, we learn - because the interpreter is not because of easier to understand Bible versions, but the indwelling presence of that Holy Spirit, Who is our only 'real' teacher.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#3
The entire ministry of Jesus was in the old covenant, the new covenant of grace had not begun until after the CROSS. (book of Hebrews expounds on this) Rightly dividing the word will answer a lot of questions like this one.\
THIS is why bible STUDY is needed.

AND, quoting text out of context is PRETEXT
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,090
3,009
113
#4
The entire ministry of Jesus was in the old covenant, the new covenant of grace had not begun until after the CROSS. (book of Hebrews expounds on this) Rightly dividing the word will answer a lot of questions like this one.\
THIS is why bible STUDY is needed.

AND, quoting text out of context is PRETEXT
Please do not take this as pretext for it is entirely withing context. How do we explain Psalm 32? Also the truth that the Gospel was first givin to Abraham? The teachings of Christ in Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel and more? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying about when ad where the covenants appear and when they were valid? God bless you,and I will read what you have to say.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,952
10,323
113
#5
Does not scripture say not to make repetetive prayers? Jesus is not telling us to pray this prayer, is is using this as an example to how to pray.

Why would we need to continue to ask for forgiveness, Uness jesus did not pay for them on the cross. And if he did not. How could asking God to fogive that sin ever save us?


I would also like to know what father kicks their child out of their family who does not ask them for forgiveness of a particular sin? And why anyone would think God would act less loving than a loving father who forgives a child unconditionally?
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#6
Please do not take this as pretext for it is entirely withing context. How do we explain Psalm 32? Also the truth that the Gospel was first givin to Abraham? The teachings of Christ in Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel and more? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying about when ad where the covenants appear and when they were valid? God bless you,and I will read what you have to say.
You prefer the Law then stay in the Law.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,528
3,694
113
#7
Matthew 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11) Give us this day our daily bread.
12)
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Ever wonder why Jesus said we should pray this way? Hmm I mean, have our debts not already been forgiven now and forevermore? Why should we ask for them to be forgiven when we pray?

Do we have to ask for forgiveness in order for God to apply the precious blood of Christ which atones for our sin?

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What about our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Do we ask them?

James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Read More...)


I am just concerned that when folks start telling others they don't have to worry, all their sins are already forgiven,,,,,,,,they could well be doing grave harm to that person........... OSAS'ers say they don't believe it is a License to sin/live however they want, yet, when someone asks if they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin they just committed, the OSAS'ers tell them "No. All your sins have already been forgiven."

How is that NOT a License to live as one chooses without concern for any sin they might commit?

This IS NOT about OSAS..........it's about IF we need to ask for forgiveness for a sin we commit today/tomorrow, next week......whatever? Or, can we just go our merry way and not give it a second thought?

Seriously, someone NEEDS to establish the BASE LINE for what needs to be done when a person sins after they come to Christ. I am not speaking of "willful sin," but sins of Omission........slips/whatever......

Let's say my son has been disrespectful to his mother. Consequences may include the loss of his phone, car use, and other restrictions. And let's further say a day or so goes by and he hasn't admitted wrong, said he was sorry and asked for forgiveness.

He knows the relationship between he and I is going to be strained. I won't interact with him in the same manner, I may extend the loss of certain privileges, and so forth. During ALL THIS TIME he absolutely knows that I love him, want the best for him, and he will forever be my son.

It is PRECISELY these factors that drive him to confess wrong, say he was sorry, and ask forgiveness HE KNOWS he will receive.

He was NEVER in danger of losing my love, or his sonship.

God works in much the same way. He will discipline those He loves, that are HIS children. His children, with the Holy Spirit in them, will respond.

So yeah. There are many reasons to confess sin to God. But fear of losing sonship shouldn't be one of them.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,090
3,009
113
#8
You prefer the Law then stay in the Law.

If your read my post I made no reference to law only to Christ in the Old Testament.

I will bow out of your sermon. God bless you, and guide you withHis Light in Jesus Christ.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,514
1,005
113
#9
As we forgive others of their debts is as reflection of how we see God forgiving our own selves. Because as we are informed in Romans 12 that we do work to forgive others as a thing of mercy and not entitlement with" His mercy in view". We are to not let any debt remain outstanding except for the continuing debt to love one another. It is a reflection of the love we have of Him in view of His great mercy working in us daily . A debt we could never pay of our own selves . Pass on the love or pay it forward.

Owe no man any thing, but "to love one another": for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.Romans 13:8
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#10
Judge not lest you be judged? How many spiritual cowards have used that phrase to shut down being called out for error? Let me reply to this admonition by Jesus to UNBELIEVERS. (read the context)

Members of the Body are to judge the truth. The writers of the grace covenant made many judgement on unbelievers and pretenders to the throne of grace. Jesus Himself said, "judge ye what I say" and the Bereans in Acts challenged everything and God commended them for it.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
11,160
5,820
113
73
#11
Matthew 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11) Give us this day our daily bread.
12)
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Ever wonder why Jesus said we should pray this way? Hmm I mean, have our debts not already been forgiven now and forevermore? Why should we ask for them to be forgiven when we pray?

Do we have to ask for forgiveness in order for God to apply the precious blood of Christ which atones for our sin?

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What about our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Do we ask them?

James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Read More...)


I am just concerned that when folks start telling others they don't have to worry, all their sins are already forgiven,,,,,,,,they could well be doing grave harm to that person........... OSAS'ers say they don't believe it is a License to sin/live however they want, yet, when someone asks if they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin they just committed, the OSAS'ers tell them "No. All your sins have already been forgiven."

How is that NOT a License to live as one chooses without concern for any sin they might commit?

This IS NOT about OSAS..........it's about IF we need to ask for forgiveness for a sin we commit today/tomorrow, next week......whatever? Or, can we just go our merry way and not give it a second thought?

Seriously, someone NEEDS to establish the BASE LINE for what needs to be done when a person sins after they come to Christ. I am not speaking of "willful sin," but sins of Omission........slips/whatever......
It may not be needed to list our transgressions during our prayer, but it can't hurt. I think the Lord's Prayer covers it splendidly, just a general statement of asking forgiveness. Either way, it won't hurt your cause. One mentioned not to make repetitive prayers, but I think that means chanting. If we only said the Lord's prayer, I see a problem with that. We should remain constant in prayer. :)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,090
3,009
113
#12
There are two types of judgment taught in theBible. One we are supposed to exercise, the other is reserved for the Great Day of the Lord.

Jesus told all hypocrites to judge for themselves what is right, and so must we do as we act on the Way of Jesus, otherwise He will consider us hypcrites.... The pivotal words here are to judge for ourselves, never for others as an law written in stone, as so many grace teachers do teach.

We are never to judge to condemnation, for with the judgement we give, we will receive.

There may be folks who appear to be disobedient, and we should avoid associatio with them, but never judge them to dondemnation. Why? Have you never read that God says so what if I justify the uingodly…..do not judge.

Elswhere in Romans, explaine by Paul, many pagans have the truth writtten on their herts with thei own consscience accusing and excusing them as they act…….Do not judge to condemnatiion.

Know the above and your life will be very happy.

God bless all in Jesus Christ.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,514
1,005
113
#13
Does not scripture say not to make repetetive prayers? Jesus is not telling us to pray this prayer, is is using this as an example to how to pray.

Why would we need to continue to ask for forgiveness, Uness jesus did not pay for them on the cross. And if he did not. How could asking God to fogive that sin ever save us?

I would also like to know what father kicks their child out of their family who does not ask them for forgiveness of a particular sin? And why anyone would think God would act less loving than a loving father who forgives a child unconditionally?

I think if you look at the verse closely it is not about the repetition of prayer that is vain .In our anxieties we are commanded to cry out in supplication like a baby needing the help of their parent over and over if need be . But more of the manner of prayer as to the vain thing.

If we pray like for instnce .....Hail Mary full of Grace the lord be with you blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus . Our praying to any other brother and sister no longer here under the Sun.( 3500 workers with family spirits or patron saints available) They have violated the commandment as to the one manner (Not manners)we can pray our father who is in heaven .Our father. Saying that (hail Mary)prayer one time make what is said as vain. Praying it a thousand time does not change the nature .

He know our needs before we ask as he gives us the desire to them he works in us to both will and perform them .

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After "this manner" therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mathew 6:6-9

Not hallow a word that means to venerate our brother and sister in heaven, as a necromancy foundation.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,090
3,009
113
#14
There is no reason to pray to any other than God…….not to Mary, not to any other creature of God .. It is not taught anywhere in the Word...…..that should suffice for any to never practice such.

This is not in response to gareees post, but inspired by it...thank yougaree......God bless you.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,785
5,435
113
#15
I think that to do Justly, is to love mercy, and to walk humbly with the Lord. Mercy, giving it and asking of it, especially from Him, should be our go to in the minds and hearts of His. Forgiveness is the cornerstone to a transformed life. We need it to be redeemed, daily, and we give it to be sanctified, again daily. I need His nutrition, His renewing and sustenance daily!! Great thread, imho
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,196
2,361
113
#16
I dont care what anyone says. I would feel TERRRIBLE if I didnt confess my sins. And I will probably continue to do so till my last breath.

In fact, I think its a bit ODD if someone doesnt confess their sins.
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,145
1,746
113
#17
I am just concerned that when folks start telling others they don't have to worry, all their sins are already forgiven,,,,,,,,they could well be doing grave harm to that person........... OSAS'ers say they don't believe it is a License to sin/live however they want, yet, when someone asks if they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin they just committed, the OSAS'ers tell them "No. All your sins have already been forgiven."
You were doing fairly well brother until the above that you've written!

It's a straw man, a huge swath of misinformation and is inaccurate.

OSAS is a teaching derived from the perseverance of the saints, and of late it (perseverance of the saints) has been distorted through easy-believeism and Free Grace Theology.

Free Grace Theology is a theological discipline from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is false in that it teaches once a persons is "saved" no matter how they live they'll still go to heaven. Please, anyone, if you think that I am denying grace is freely given, then please reread; I'm denying the validity of the teaching from a system of theology known as Free Grace Theology, not that grace is freely given.

FGT is false because of the above fact, and for the reason it distorts perseverance of the saints, denies ongoing sanctification; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Hebrews 12:14, and distorts biblical evidence of true conversion; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1-3 John.

Please don't make statements that broad brush with condemnation this teaching or those who teach it because of how some distort it. Thank you! :)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
#18
OSAS'ers say they don't believe it is a License to sin/live however they want, yet, when someone asks if they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin they just committed, the OSAS'ers tell them "No. All your sins have already been forgiven."
I do not think this is true.

I believe in OSAS and I also ask God for forgiveness of my sins/debts every night.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,196
2,361
113
#19
You were doing fairly well brother until the above that you've written!

It's a straw man, a huge swath of misinformation and is inaccurate.

OSAS is a teaching derived from the perseverance of the saints, and of late it (perseverance of the saints) has been distorted through easy-believeism and Free Grace Theology.

Free Grace Theology is a theological discipline from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is false in that it teaches once a persons is "saved" no matter how they live they'll still go to heaven. Please, anyone, if you think that I am denying grace is freely given, then please reread; I'm denying the validity of the teaching from a system of theology known as Free Grace Theology, not that grace is freely given.

FGT is false because of the above fact, and for the reason it distorts perseverance of the saints, denies ongoing sanctification; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Hebrews 12:14, and distorts biblical evidence of true conversion; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 1-3 John.

Please don't make statements that broad brush with condemnation this teaching or those who teach it because of how some distort it. Thank you! :)
Perseverance of the saints is the best teaching from the TULIP by far. I love it.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,952
10,323
113
#20
I think if you look at the verse closely it is not about the repetition of prayer that is vain .In our anxieties we are commanded to cry out in supplication like a baby needing the help of their parent over and over if need be . But more of the manner of prayer as to the vain thing.

If we pray like for instnce .....Hail Mary full of Grace the lord be with you blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus . Our praying to any other brother and sister no longer here under the Sun.( 3500 workers with family spirits or patron saints available) They have violated the commandment as to the one manner (Not manners)we can pray our father who is in heaven .Our father. Saying that (hail Mary)prayer one time make what is said as vain. Praying it a thousand time does not change the nature .

He know our needs before we ask as he gives us the desire to them he works in us to both will and perform them .

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After "this manner" therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mathew 6:6-9

Not hallow a word that means to venerate our brother and sister in heaven, as a necromancy foundation.
The pharisees used to say prayers, repetitive prayers, where they would say the same thing over and over and over. Many churches today do this, This is what we are warned about We shoudl pray from the heart. Not some religious repetetive prayer which after awhile loses its meaning..

We should talk with God like we talk to our father, We would not talk to our father by repeating some thing over and over and over.. He would stop talking to us, and be offended. (I know I would if my kids came to talk, and said the same repetetive things over and over.. every time they talked to me.