Metanoia/repent

[eternally-gratefull]

A few people wished to discuss this in a non threatening, not attack thread. So I figured I would open this topic for discussion.

In matt3, John the baptist came preaching a message of repentance. Saying, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What does this word mean. Most greek/english lexicons have the meaning to be to "change ones mind, direction, to return"

I looked up some places in the OT, and a few different hebrew words were used,

Lets discuss this openly. I know we may disagree, but lets have a discussion. without attacking people groups (hypergrace/gostic) but what each of us personally think these terms mean.

,

 

[blue_ladybug]

Here is a post I made on another thread, regarding my view of true repentance:

quote by blue_ladybug: MY idea of TRUE repentance is being truly and sincerely sorry for your sins, and repenting of them with sincere repentance, and not just as a ritual to make sure God forgives you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is a post I made on another thread, regarding my view of true repentance:

quote by blue_ladybug: MY idea of TRUE repentance is being truly and sincerely sorry for your sins, and repenting of them with sincere repentance, and not just as a ritual to make sure God forgives you.

so would you say this is something we do before we are saved, Then as we grow in christ, and learn new things which we did not know were sins, we repent of those things also..Meaning we are always living a repentant lifestyle (since we should be always learning new things)

And not a, I got mad, So I repent, Then next week, I got mad again, SO I repented. Then next month, I got mad, and repented again, Then one day I had a real bad day, I got mad 50 times and had to repent 50 times..

Oh woe is me..

 

[Willie-T]

A few people wished to discuss this in a non threatening, not attack thread. So I figured I would open this topic for discussion.

In matt3, John the baptist came preaching a message of repentance. Saying, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What does this word mean. Most greek/english lexicons have the meaning to be to "change ones mind, direction, to return"

I looked up some places in the OT, and a few different hebrew words were used,

Lets discuss this openly. I know we may disagree, but lets have a discussion. without attacking people groups (hypergrace/gostic) but what each of us personally think these terms mean.

,

Well, did not the Jews come every 365 days to make a special demonstration of their sorrowfulness of their sinning? And did they not also give offerings all through the year to "atone" for the ongoing sins that they obviously had not "turned from?"

Yet, this particular year, John The Baptizer was preaching that they were not to just get the usual, standard yearly "clean-up" routine, but were to do something more... to "REPENT" (changing the old thoughts they grew up with, and lived under) because there was coming, something entirely new. The Kingdom of God was finally at hand... coming very soon.

 

[blue_ladybug]

so would you say this is something we do before we are saved, Then as we grow in christ, and learn new things which we did not know were sins, we repent of those things also..Meaning we are always living a repentant lifestyle (since we should be always learning new things)

And not a, I got mad, So I repent, Then next week, I got mad again, SO I repented. Then next month, I got mad, and repented again, Then one day I had a real bad day, I got mad 50 times and had to repent 50 times..

Oh woe is me..

It probably varies from person to person, but to me, part of getting saved means you MUST have a repentant heart to even WANT to get saved/know Jesus. Those who don't want to know Jesus, obviously want no part of repenting their sins.. I don't know about anyone else, but I (try to) repent every time I sin. Whether it's thinking bad of someone, or swearing, etc..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, did not the Jews come every 365 days to make a special demonstration of their sorrowfulness of their sinning? And did they not also give offerings all through the year to "atone" for the ongoing sins that they obviously had not "turned from?"

Yet, this particular year, John The Baptizer was preaching that they were not to just get the usual, standard yearly "clean-up" routine, but were to do something more... to "REPENT" (changing the old thoughts they grew up with, and lived under) because there was coming, something entirely new. The Kingdom of God was finally at hand... coming very soon.

Yes, I do not think he was telling them to turn from being sinners. I think he was telling them to turn, because the purpose of the law was about to be fulfilled.

Align your thinking with this purpose, and see the redeemer..

The pharisee did not think they needed a redeemer, So John confronted them, show you have repented, by your actions.. THEN come and get baptised.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that John the Baptist was saying repent to the Jewish people and to get baptized was to show that they had sins and needed a Savior.

The Pharisees refused the "repenting" and had no "metanoia" ( change of mind ) and thus did not get water baptized to show they had sin. John's purpose was to make way for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world.

When the Pharisees said "I have no sin" because I follow the Law - we do not need to be water baptized - we have Abraham and the Law - then Jesus gave them the Law Moses 2.0.

This is the exact same principle that the gnostics in the early church said. "We have no sin" and thus no need of a Savior.

 

[LaurenTM]

It probably varies from person to person, but to me, part of getting saved means you MUST have a repentant heart to even WANT to get saved/know Jesus. Those who don't want to know Jesus, obviously want no part of repenting their sins.. I don't know about anyone else, but I (try to) repent every time I sin. Whether it's thinking bad of someone, or swearing, etc..

I think God gives us a tender heart towards Him, especially when we are first saved, mind you I was 5 so didn't get the whole thing anyway at the time

if we disagree with God...that is think we cover up our sin, or think 'oh that's nothing' and we ignore the tap on the shoulder that is God saying...I don't approve of that behavior and your attitude is not good either, then I think our hearts can become hard and we can drift

BUT...God is faithful and I can certainly attest to the fact He comes after us with that shepherd's hook and nabs us back from the cliff

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that John the Baptist was saying repent to the Jewish people and to get baptized was to show that they had sins and needed a Savior.

The Pharisees refused the "repenting" and had no "metanoia" ( change of mind ) and thus did not get water baptized to show they had sin. John's purpose was to make way for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world.

When the Pharisees said "I have no sin" because I follow the Law - we do not need to be water baptized - we have Abraham and the Law - then Jesus gave them the Law Moses 2.0.

This is the exact same principle that the gnostics in the early church said. "We have no sin" and thus no need of a Savior.

If you were a gentile and wanted to be allowed into the jewish faith, You were to be baptized.

For a jew to get baptized, if you were not a part of the levitical bloodline (priest) this would be an insult. It took great faith for a jew to go through this "gentile" tradition.

Thats true repentance.. Humility.. and faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think God gives us a tender heart towards Him, especially when we are first saved, mind you I was 5 so didn't get the whole thing anyway at the time

if we disagree with God...that is think we cover up our sin, or think 'oh that's nothing' and we ignore the tap on the shoulder that is God saying...I don't approve of that behavior and your attitude is not good either, then I think our hearts can become hard and we can drift

BUT...God is faithful and I can certainly attest to the fact He comes after us with that shepherd's hook and nabs us back from the cliff

I can too. He had me on the hook, as I was falling over the cliff.. He said let me bring you back, or I will let you fall and bring you home early..

praise God I chose to return.. although if i did not, I have no doubt I would have seen him face to face the moment I fell.. and he would have welcomed me with open arms.. But I would have missed out on so much of gods love these last 10 years.

 

[Willie-T]

Here is a suggestion:
Since much of the confusion in these particular discussions centers around just exactly WHAT each of us thinks REPENT means, is it possible to do as I did in the second paragraph of post # 4, and not simply type the word REPENT or REPENTANCE, but to use an entirely different phrase (either by itself, or parenthesized) to more fully and completely explain what the word REPENT happens to esoterically mean to us in our own personal understanding and interpretation of that specific word?

In other words, EXPLAIN in real English words, what we think the action or thought is, instead of assuming everyone else thinks that word means the same thing we think it means.

In demonstration:
I think REPENT is to think differently than you did before. THEREFORE, when someone writes that they repented of a sin they did yesterday... to me, that says they thought the sin was OK yesterday, and that they have now changed their mind, and think it is not. And it leads me to wonder how, every day or so, a Christian gets to thinking sinning again is fine, but within hours, they change their mind once again.

Of course, I can obviously see that they interpret REPENT as "feeling sorry about doing wrong." But this matches no Biblical definition I know except maybe Webster's modern one that is reflective of worldly thinking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is a suggestion:
Since much of the confusion in these particular discussions centers around just exactly WHAT each of us thinks REPENT means, is it possible to do as I did in the second paragraph of post # 4, and not simply type the word REPENT or REPENTANCE, but to use an entirely different phrase (either by itself, or parenthesized) to more fully and completely explain what the word REPENT happens to esoterically mean to us in our own personal understanding and interpretation of that specific word?

In other words, EXPLAIN in real English words, what we think the action or thought is, instead of assuming everyone else thinks that word means the same thing we think it means.

In demonstration:
I think REPENT is to think differently than you did before. THEREFORE, when someone writes that they repented of a sin they did yesterday... to me, that says they thought the sin was OK yesterday, and that they have now changed their mind, and think it is not. And it leads me to wonder how, every day or so, a Christian gets to thinking sinning again is fine, but within hours, they change their mind once again.

Of course, I can obviously see that they interpret REPENT as "feeling sorry about doing wrong." But this matches no Biblical definition I know except maybe Webster's modern one that is reflective of worldly thinking.

thats why I wish we would get away from using "biblical" words, like repent and baptise. And just spell out what they mean, would be so much less confusion..

I think that is one of the problems of the church, and why there is so much division.

 

[Willie-T]

thats why I wish we would get away from using "biblical" words, like repent and baptise. And just spell out what they mean, would be so much less confusion..

I think that is one of the problems of the church, and why there is so much division.

Yes, this is "men's tradition", and it is killing us. Many denominations cannot even objectively and rationally converse with one another because of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, this is "men's tradition", and it is killing us. Many denominations cannot even objectively and rationally converse with one another because of it.

most of the arguments would be done away with..

Peopler use a "religious" interpretation of words, and not the true meaning. Sadly even some dictionaries have followed trend, Although I guess they have to give each meaning of a word as it is used by the people.. in that day. .So we can not blame them. unless they are using their particular bias.

 

[Willie-T]

It is also one of the ways we turn-off unbelievers. We get "Churchy" on them, as though we are now in possession of a special way of speaking that poor common slobs like them just can't possibly fathom.

 

[valiant]

If you were a gentile and wanted to be allowed into the jewish faith, You were to be baptized.

The gentile was not baptised. He bathed himself with water. It was not an act of baptism but of removing the defilement of the Gentile world.

For a jew to get baptized, if you were not a part of the levitical bloodline (priest) this would be an insult. It took great faith for a jew to go through this "gentile" tradition.

Thats true repentance.. Humility.. and faith.

it was not like the Gentile self bathing. The baptism of John was promising the Holy Spirit
although true repentance was required

 

[Grace777x70]

If you were a gentile and wanted to be allowed into the jewish faith, You were to be baptized.

For a jew to get baptized, if you were not a part of the levitical bloodline (priest) this would be an insult. It took great faith for a jew to go through this "gentile" tradition.

Thats true repentance.. Humility.. and faith.

Wow...great point...I had never heard that before. Makes perfect sense when you consider the Pharisees refusal to be baptized to say they had sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

thats why I wish we would get away from using "biblical" words, like repent and baptise. And just spell out what they mean, would be so much less confusion..

I think that is one of the problems of the church, and why there is so much division.

I agree in some instances because some words have been "hi-jacked" by religion and when they hear something different from what they were taught - it blows their gaskets. I know it did me...lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The gentile was not baptised. He bathed himself with water. It was not an act of baptism but of removing the defilement of the Gentile world.

it was not like the Gentile self bathing. The baptism of John was promising the Holy Spirit
although true repentance was required

He still was immersed in water.. Same difference.

Water immersion never cleansed anyone spiritually.

 

[Willie-T]

If you were a gentile and wanted to be allowed into the jewish faith, You were to be baptized.

For a jew to get baptized, if you were not a part of the levitical bloodline (priest) this would be an insult. It took great faith for a jew to go through this "gentile" tradition.

Thats true repentance.. Humility.. and faith.

Wow...great point...I had never heard that before. Makes perfect sense when you consider the Pharisees refusal to be baptized to say they had sin.

I had never thought of that either. (Boy, I am glad I do more than simply just read the Bible with only my own limited understanding of what I think I am seeing in front of me.)