Modern Israel and Biblical Israel Not One and the Same

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dalconn

Guest
#2
So you're saying that all nations should force Israel to follow their covenant with God or they're not entitled to be there at all? really?
 
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psychomom

Guest
#3
insightful, Christian. thank you :)

ugh, and this:

What bothers me most is that when news broke of the death of the Israeli teenagers, the internet lit up with your standard “stand with Israel” cheers, yet whenever Israel is the agent of aggression or retaliation, things go silent. The only voices who speak up are a few brave souls who are willing to be castigated by other Christians for having the courage to stand up against the violence and oppression of the nation state of Israel.


Why do we do this? Why does Israel get a free pass in doing whatever they want? They bulldoze communities so they can build illegal settlements, and we say and do nothing. They systematically use violence and oppression over their neighbors, and yet we say and do nothing. When things over heat, they retaliate—burning children alive, and we say and do nothing.



Why? Why would we be so foolish as to completely ignore behavior on the part of Israel that would in any other circumstance result in international sanctions or worse?

https://benirwin.me/2014/07/09/if-y...-them-youre-going-to-have-to-get-a-new-bible/


 
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psychomom

Guest
#4
So you're saying that all nations should force Israel to follow their covenant with God or they're not entitled to be there at all? really?
i really don't think that's the point :)
 
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Tintin

Guest
#5
So you're saying that all nations should force Israel to follow their covenant with God or they're not entitled to be there at all? really?
Er. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Modern day Israel and the Israel of Bible times are not one and the same.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#6
Hmm
Your media must be very different from ours

Here Israel is the evil bully and the others have never done anything wrong.
Even when terrorists stab Israeli guards and get show it is "Israel kills Palestinians"
 
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psychomom

Guest
#7
Hmm
Your media must be very different from ours

Here Israel is the evil bully and the others have never done anything wrong.
Even when terrorists stab Israeli guards and get show it is "Israel kills Palestinians"
reeeeaally??

yes, very different to the way the media displays things in the States.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#8
Hmm
Your media must be very different from ours

Here Israel is the evil bully and the others have never done anything wrong.
Even when terrorists stab Israeli guards and get show it is "Israel kills Palestinians"
Wow. That's brutal. Both sides have done horrible things to each other. But in terms of who the true descendants of the Israelites are in all of this, I'd say the Palestinians (or at least some of them) are it.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#9
The current modern [state] of Israel , is [not] the Biblical no. tribes of Israel, or its land.
 
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dalconn

Guest
#10
Wow. That's brutal. Both sides have done horrible things to each other. But in terms of who the true descendants of the Israelites are in all of this, I'd say the Palestinians (or at least some of them) are it.
so you're thinking the Palestinians are destined to build the third temple?
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#11
Er. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Modern day Israel and the Israel of Bible times are not one and the same.
We often agree brother but let me ask you if you think the promises made to these people through Abraham has been forgotten by God..even Paul tells us as they are enimies to the gospel the promises made to then still apply. .. God still regards them according to the promises He made to Abraham....Sorry didn't look at your link ...I'm on phone and service is slow today
 
K

keepitsimple

Guest
#12
The Book of Joshua was written somewhere between 500-600 yrs. B.C. And it says this in chapter 21:45 ... Not one of all of the Lord's good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled. Notice that this verse says ... "was fulfilled" ... not "will be fulfilled at a later date". Do the math ... or don't. Very many refuse to. And why ? It is because they fail to understand who the Israel of God truly is today. The bible (old testament) chronicles the history of national Israel but is essentially God's Word pertaining to spiritual Israel. No apostate people today can be called the chosen of God nor are they the Israel of God. We already know that only a remnant will be saved. Only believers in Jesus Christ make up the Israel of God, for there is today neither Greek nor Jew but only the bride of Christ ... one body, one church and one people.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#13
The Book of Joshua was written somewhere between 500-600 yrs. B.C. And it says this in chapter 21:45 ... Not one of all of the Lord's good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled. Notice that this verse says ... "was fulfilled" ... not "will be fulfilled at a later date". Do the math ... or don't. Very many refuse to. And why ? It is because they fail to understand who the Israel of God truly is today. The bible (old testament) chronicles the history of national Israel but is essentially God's Word pertaining to spiritual Israel. No apostate people today can be called the chosen of God nor are they the Israel of God. We already know that only a remnant will be saved. Only believers in Jesus Christ make up the Israel of God, for there is today neither Greek nor Jew but only the bride of Christ ... one body, one church and one people.
So when Paul explains these promises are still valid for Israel in the New testament...He was confused? No ...much is written past what Joshuah wrote and if you understand Hebrew ..anytime a promise of God is mentioned its mentioned in the past tense or present tense as if its already done...In the Hebrew ...God considers every Word He speaks as sure and fulfilled.
 
Apr 11, 2016
385
5
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#14
insightful, Christian. thank you :)

ugh, and this:

What bothers me most is that when news broke of the death of the Israeli teenagers, the internet lit up with your standard “stand with Israel” cheers, yet whenever Israel is the agent of aggression or retaliation, things go silent. The only voices who speak up are a few brave souls who are willing to be castigated by other Christians for having the courage to stand up against the violence and oppression of the nation state of Israel.


Why do we do this? Why does Israel get a free pass in doing whatever they want? They bulldoze communities so they can build illegal settlements, and we say and do nothing. They systematically use violence and oppression over their neighbors, and yet we say and do nothing. When things over heat, they retaliate—burning children alive, and we say and do nothing.



Why? Why would we be so foolish as to completely ignore behavior on the part of Israel that would in any other circumstance result in international sanctions or worse?

https://benirwin.me/2014/07/09/if-y...-them-youre-going-to-have-to-get-a-new-bible/



God will be dealing with his wayward kids in the trib. Dont worry! God has a plan and it will be carried out just as he has written
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#15
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 13:14-15 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Isaiah 66:5-8 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Amos 9:14-15 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Joel 3:1-2 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:15-21 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Zechariah 14:1-4 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 12:10-11 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Romans 8:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Revelation 16:12-16 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 
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keepitsimple

Guest
#16
Were God's promises to Israel conditional on them obeying God's covenants ? God's Israel and the church are not in discontinuity. One is the expression of the other.


John 8:37-47

37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
 
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psychomom

Guest
#17
God will be dealing with his wayward kids in the trib. Dont worry! God has a plan and it will be carried out just as he has written
why, thank you kindly for the encouragement!

i don't doubt for one moment that God has done and will do all He has said.

although i don't hold to that eschatological viewpoint, i know the Lord will deal well with all His dear children. :)
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#18
Were God's promises to Israel conditional on them obeying God's covenants ? God's Israel and the church are not in discontinuity. One is the expression of the other.


John 8:37-47

37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Ok does the teachings about Israel end here...or does the Word of God go on to teach us that we are to regard them as enemies of the gospel..(which is what we have here) but yet beloved for the fathers sake... I don't get it when people refuse to look at the whole counsel of God on a issue ?

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

This literal means they are still the elect people of God and God has not forgotten them...as is plainly explained in NT scripture
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
#19
We often agree brother but let me ask you if you think the promises made to these people through Abraham has been forgotten by God..even Paul tells us as they are enimies to the gospel the promises made to then still apply. .. God still regards them according to the promises He made to Abraham....Sorry didn't look at your link ...I'm on phone and service is slow today
Hi Mitspa, here is the chapter speaking of what you are talking about:

Rom 11:

1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#20
Brothers and Sisters, Just a thought,

Isn't the real question, Is this restoration of Israel to Jerusalem?

Brother John