Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

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Dec 17, 2018
11
2
3
#1
Hey guys!

It has been a while, but I am back on. I don’t really expect that I would be remember by any senior members here, since people come and go all of the time on this site. I haven’t been on here for several years now, but I went under the username Spokenpassage. Apparently my account was deleted due to inactivity, but I was able to set up my account again with the same email. Finding a username is not easy, I did like the other one, but I decided to be different. The first time I joined I was still near my mid-teens (2011), but now I am near my mid-twenties. The Lord has done a lot in my life throughout these years, I could not explain it in one post if I wanted to. Anyways, after praying a while about rejoining, I wanted to see what is up nowadays here. There have been a lot of people I personally met on here that seem completely gone, while I am still seeing others thriving in these discussions group (you know who you are). It is normal to see members and thread posts constantly debate about the law, end times, and the Trinity. It is like here things go on repeat, and I just don’t know how some of you who are still on here still do it. So this is a sort of introduction I suppose.

*to the point*

I want to have an honest, serious, discussion with knowledgeable brothers here about some subjects. If you deny that God is revealed in three distinct co-eternal, consubstantial, persons; or that we are not under the jurisdiction of the law, but have been washed and justified in the saving blood of Jesus Christ through faith by grace alone; that we all are condemned in connection to, and corrupt by transmission from, Adam’s first transgression in the garden; that God predestined some persons in Christ, for his glory and praise, before the foundation of the world was laid, and predestined the rest to be lost in their sin to eternal punishment; then I prefer that you don’t respond. A lack of acknowledging and trusting in these truths keep discussions from progressing anywhere in any place of theology. There are too many people out there who want to be teachers and tell people about what they think they know. Some here are continually promoting Mosaic Law keeping, which is insane still (with the exception of one particular brother here who does it because he simply wants to). Don’t you understand that the Mosaic Law was written to the nation of Israel for tenure in the land of their possession? It was never intended for the world to obey, it pertained to the conditional nature of Abraham’s promises and the arrival of the coming Messiah. The New Covenant, as the writer of Hebrews plainly states, is a newer and better covenant that promised better things and eternal realities, whereas the Old Covenant promised temporal promises and realities to a temporal nation for a temporal period until the Offspring would be born and redeem the elect of God from the creation to the last one who will be converted prior to the resurrection of the dead and the consummation of the kingdom on the new earth. Anyways…

I want an honest, serious, prayerful conversation on the issue of the modern state of Israel. What is your take on its existence? Is it biblical, is it not? Explain your reason, back it up with Scripture. This is not necessarily political question, and it is not so much of whether it is a settlement of land thief or that the government is maybe questionable in their control of the land. You can mention that if you want, but I am looking for a discussion on the statehood itself. Many say that this is the fulfillment of some prophecy, that God would bring the Jews back to the land of Canaan as their possession. Others see this as a fraud and a fake, that God had already finished his purpose with Israel a long time ago and that they no longer exist as a nation.

Now,

* Replacement Theology teaches that the Church replaced the nation of Israel (New Covenant replaces and abolishes the Old).

* Reformed Theology teaches that the Church is the eschatological and fulfillment of Israel (New Covenant is what the Old pointed to and foreshadowed).

Pointing that out there lest someone confuses two.

I am of the conviction that this is not biblical, this is not right, and that the fact that many Christians are supporting it is frightening. I can explain afterward.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#2
Hey guys!

It has been a while, but I am back on. I don’t really expect that I would be remember by any senior members here, since people come and go all of the time on this site. I haven’t been on here for several years now, but I went under the username Spokenpassage. Apparently my account was deleted due to inactivity, but I was able to set up my account again with the same email. Finding a username is not easy, I did like the other one, but I decided to be different. The first time I joined I was still near my mid-teens (2011), but now I am near my mid-twenties. The Lord has done a lot in my life throughout these years, I could not explain it in one post if I wanted to. Anyways, after praying a while about rejoining, I wanted to see what is up nowadays here. There have been a lot of people I personally met on here that seem completely gone, while I am still seeing others thriving in these discussions group (you know who you are). It is normal to see members and thread posts constantly debate about the law, end times, and the Trinity. It is like here things go on repeat, and I just don’t know how some of you who are still on here still do it. So this is a sort of introduction I suppose.

*to the point*

I want to have an honest, serious, discussion with knowledgeable brothers here about some subjects. If you deny that God is revealed in three distinct co-eternal, consubstantial, persons; or that we are not under the jurisdiction of the law, but have been washed and justified in the saving blood of Jesus Christ through faith by grace alone; that we all are condemned in connection to, and corrupt by transmission from, Adam’s first transgression in the garden; that God predestined some persons in Christ, for his glory and praise, before the foundation of the world was laid, and predestined the rest to be lost in their sin to eternal punishment; then I prefer that you don’t respond. A lack of acknowledging and trusting in these truths keep discussions from progressing anywhere in any place of theology. There are too many people out there who want to be teachers and tell people about what they think they know. Some here are continually promoting Mosaic Law keeping, which is insane still (with the exception of one particular brother here who does it because he simply wants to). Don’t you understand that the Mosaic Law was written to the nation of Israel for tenure in the land of their possession? It was never intended for the world to obey, it pertained to the conditional nature of Abraham’s promises and the arrival of the coming Messiah. The New Covenant, as the writer of Hebrews plainly states, is a newer and better covenant that promised better things and eternal realities, whereas the Old Covenant promised temporal promises and realities to a temporal nation for a temporal period until the Offspring would be born and redeem the elect of God from the creation to the last one who will be converted prior to the resurrection of the dead and the consummation of the kingdom on the new earth. Anyways…

I want an honest, serious, prayerful conversation on the issue of the modern state of Israel. What is your take on its existence? Is it biblical, is it not? Explain your reason, back it up with Scripture. This is not necessarily political question, and it is not so much of whether it is a settlement of land thief or that the government is maybe questionable in their control of the land. You can mention that if you want, but I am looking for a discussion on the statehood itself. Many say that this is the fulfillment of some prophecy, that God would bring the Jews back to the land of Canaan as their possession. Others see this as a fraud and a fake, that God had already finished his purpose with Israel a long time ago and that they no longer exist as a nation.

Now,

* Replacement Theology teaches that the Church replaced the nation of Israel (New Covenant replaces and abolishes the Old).

* Reformed Theology teaches that the Church is the eschatological and fulfillment of Israel (New Covenant is what the Old pointed to and foreshadowed).

Pointing that out there lest someone confuses two.

I am of the conviction that this is not biblical, this is not right, and that the fact that many Christians are supporting it is frightening. I can explain afterward.
In evaluating the system and existence of the state itself, it's neither biblical nor unbiblical on principle. Instead, it's unrelated. It's a state in the same manner that France is a state, the US is a state, Germany is a state...etc.. It's government is a Parliamentary democracy with constitutional law, and it's judicary is a 3 tier court system (in contrast to a "biblical" system of a theocratic monarchy with a king, priest, tribal elders, and temple with written law in the Torah).

it's moral insofar as it serves to respect and protect life, liberty, private property and the pursuit of happiness of it's citizenry. It's immoral insofar as it may violate people's natural rights.

I think in seeing Israel as some sort of prophetically predestined state, many Christians give it a pass on criticism of any kind as they don't want to "curse Israel" and therefore they themselves be cursed by God (as if avoiding valid criticisms would be excusable). They also want to see the Parousia and think that the current Israeli state will somehow speed that process along. Both of these reasons seem to me to be quite self-serving in that the people pushing the first reason think that by avoiding criticism they can protect themselves against God's punishment while failing to think that not-standing up for what's right could result in the same. And in the second reason many of those Christians typically don't believe they themselves will be around to live with the consequences of their policies (the "Great Tribulation" in their thinking) - they will escape via a rapture. They have no real skin in the game and simply want to save themselves at the expense of others.

Modern Israel, as a state, is neither biblical nor unbiblical in principle though. It's a state like any other. It can have good or bad policies like any other. It's governing system has strengths and weaknesses like any other. It's run by fallible humans like any other.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
678
113
#3
No I don't believe it is. It's an apartheid state created by the Allies after WW2 and bolstered by immigration of supposed decendents of Abraham.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,506
113
#4
Its a miracle. No denying that.

After all the wars they won, completely caught off guard and outnumbered. Its a miracle.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
11,271
737
113
#5
The criteria for Israel has always been to walk in God's way and keep his statutes and then they could live in the land.... The modern state of Israel hasn't done that so no they're no legit.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#6
Its a miracle. No denying that.

After all the wars they won, completely caught off guard and outnumbered. Its a miracle.
I doubt it was a miracle. There's nothing miraculous in principle about winning wars or being an underdog and yet winning.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
#7
Can someone show me another nation, who was destroyed, left for dead. Everyone removed, and a few thousand years later. Restored. With its culture, and everything that made them a state intact?

Then can you not tell me that since it was prophesied this would happen even before they were destroyed, and it has happened. How it is not from God? (Even though it was human agency who allowed them to move back in)?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,506
113
#8
Can someone show me another nation, who was destroyed, left for dead. Everyone removed, and a few thousand years later. Restored. With its culture, and everything that made them a state intact?

Then can you not tell me that since it was prophesied this would happen even before they were destroyed, and it has happened. How it is not from God? (Even though it was human agency who allowed them to move back in)?
to add to what you said: Can someone show me an amalakite today? A philistine? an edomite? Oh yeah all those ancient nations is GONE.

One still remains.......
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
678
113
#9
The criteria for Israel has always been to walk in God's way and keep his statutes and then they could live in the land.... The modern state of Israel hasn't done that so no they're no legit.
Perzactly - they only were allowed to return when in repentance and obedience to the Torah which went *poof* in the 1st century AD therefore the conditions for return have gone *poof* with Torah.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
#10
to add to what you said: Can someone show me an amalakite today? A philistine? an edomite? Oh yeah all those ancient nations is GONE.

One still remains.......
And the fact. One was promised to remain (God will Always remember his covenant, and there will always be a remnant) makes it even more powerful. And give God greater glory, A god who keeps his promises.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,771
929
113
#11
I doubt it was a miracle. There's nothing miraculous in principle about winning wars or being an underdog and yet winning.
Gideon took 300 with him and defeated the Midianites and Amalekites. That is a miracle, seeing their numbers were as locusts and their camels as numerous as the sand on the seashore(Judges 7).
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,506
113
#12
Gideon took 300 with him and defeated the Midianites and Amalekites. That is a miracle, seeing their numbers were as locusts and their camels as numerous as the sand on the seashore(Judges 7).
Let this be a lesson to us today. Lets stop rolling over and playing dead.

Oy vey. Im starting to sound like a catholic :D

I should rant about that too. I miss the mean catholic church. The one that was hardcore. Now they have watered down to universalism basically. Everyone is already saved, even atheists if they are good people, the Pope even said God is proud of some of them.
zzzz

Catholics used to have guts and dominated the world. It seems like only one 'religion' from the middle-east has retained their manhood. The rest have been emasculated. SAD
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
11,271
737
113
#13
Can someone show me another nation, who was destroyed, left for dead. Everyone removed, and a few thousand years later. Restored. With its culture, and everything that made them a state intact?

Then can you not tell me that since it was prophesied this would happen even before they were destroyed, and it has happened. How it is not from God? (Even though it was human agency who allowed them to move back in)?
There's no prophecy in the bible about Israel becoming a nation again.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
13,558
7,811
113
73
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#14
No I don't believe it is. It's an apartheid state created by the Allies after WW2 and bolstered by immigration of supposed decendents of Abraham.
The nation that calls itself Israel has no right to that name. They should be called Judah. The name of Israel belongs to Joseph's two sons (Gen. 48:16). I am sure it was Satan's idea for them to use that name so as to mess everybody's understanding of prophecy. :cool:
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,506
113
#15
There's no prophecy in the bible about Israel becoming a nation again.
Sure there is:


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


MANY MANY MORE. Too many to provide really....

Look I get it. Israel is wicked right now, so is every other nation. But the Bible is clear, in the last times, before Jesus returns to earth, there will be a massive revival among the jewish people. Who will then go and inherit the kingdom promised to them.
It is what it is, deal with it.
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
#16
Sure there is:


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


ANY MANY MORE. Too many to provide really....
I assume your responding to somene saying the bible does not say it. You have just touched the massive amounts of things God said about keeping his promie and restoring his people to their land.

What amazes me, is HOW they can say these prophesies speak of the church..The church was NEVER given those promises
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
#17
The nation that calls itself Israel has no right to that name. They should be called Judah. The name of Israel belongs to Joseph's two sons (Gen. 48:16). I am sure it was Satan's idea for them to use that name so as to mess everybody's understanding of prophecy. :cool:

Judah was the name given to one son, but also the name given to the southern kingdom.

Israel is the name of the great grandson of Abraham to whome was given birth to the 12 chjildren, who make up the nation called by his name
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,506
113
#18
I assume your responding to somene saying the bible does not say it. You have just touched the massive amounts of things God said about keeping his promie and restoring his people to their land.

What amazes me, is HOW they can say these prophesies speak of the church..The church was NEVER given those promises
Bro i agree with you 100%

Here is what replacement theology wants us to believe:

Physical people were physically scattered, but a DIFFERENT group of people was regathered and spiritually, instead of physically. Uhh yeah....

Because of my background as a judaizer I feel very "personal" about this. And its HARD evangelizing jews if you discount all the promises made to them in the prophets. Its ridicilous.
I almost vomit when I read those commentaries from the 1800s on biblehub. The Bible says "Jerusalem" and they comment on it saying "The gospel church here"... wait what? it didnt say anything about a gospel church... These guys just make it up as they go along.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
11,271
737
113
#19
Sure there is:


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


ANY MANY MORE. Too many to provide really....
Yeah I agree there's a lot of prophecies about spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem, but none of those verses apply to physical Israel.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,837
2,208
113
#20
Is it ok for sisters to join in conversation too?
A friend invited me to a messianic gathering. Yes like Paul wrote many years ago in the NT not all of Israel is saved. And his heart broke for them. But now we can see a lot of Israel coming to christ their Messiah, and its good they have their homeland back, although its a bit tenuous, but I believe its a God thing, even though from many perspectives it looks, how shall we say, dodgy.

Remember the kingdom split into Israel and Judah and at the time when Jesus came to earth, people proclaimed he would deliver Israel, yet the jews (from the tribe of Judah) resisted. Well they still resist today yet, on the other hand many are actually coming to know Him. (Hence, messianic jews) Many jews know God, but they dont know his as a Father who gave us his only son, jesus (Yeshua) yet as we gentiles continue to witness, they will know so that every tongue will confess that he is Lord of Lords, King of Kings.