Name It and Claim It

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Guojing

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Another reason some people think Paul's thorn was
sickness is that the word "infirmities" is used twice in this
passage. Verses 9 and 10 say:

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
for my strength is made perfect in -weakness. Most
gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,
that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I
take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in
necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's
sake:for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2 Corinthians 12:9,10

This word infirmity is used nearly universally nowadays
to refer to some type of a sickness. People say, "This
person has an infirmity." We even call the place where we
send sick people "the infirmary." Although it has an
almost exclusive connotation with sickness in its popular
use today, the meaning of this word infirmity wasn't
limited to sickness at the time that the King James Bible
was written. Take, for example, Romans 8:

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings
which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:26

Notice the colon :)) after the word "infirmities" and again
after the word "ought."This verse is saying that it is an
infirmity to not know what we should pray for as we
ought.
If you were to look up the word infirmity in the
dictionary, you'd find that it not only means a sickness,
but it could also be any weakness or inadequacy. This is
how it was used in Romans 8:26. Not knowing how to pray
for something is a weakness, an inadequacy, an infirmity
—not a sickness or a disease.
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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One thing that really bothers me is when a Christian comes up to me and says, "you haven't been healed because you lack faith".
In case you did not understand my point, I did not say that.

What I am saying is that, when you pray, you declare that by his stripes you are healed, and regardless on whether there is physical proof that the healing took place or not, you put your faith in the Word of God that says you are healed, and enter into the rest, knowing that you are healed.

That is the attitude all of us take when it comes to salvation, and I am saying that should be the same attitude when it comes to divine healing. :)
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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To some people, that sounds very much like "name it and claim it" too, isn't it? So why do you think physical healing is different? :)
The different is that is that Jesus did my salvation. He saved me. He opend my eye for that i am lost and need him. Years before i reject him willingly and said: i dont need him.
And in the word I find the promis: who believes has eternal life!

If I pray for someones healing, i let it also in Gods hands to answer on the best way for him.
I believe that he can heal.
But i cant find the promiss: who believes, never will be physical sick again. It is also nowhere taught to the believers in the NT
And the Spirit God gave to me, says in me: this name it and claim it teaching is wrong.
Thats why it is different!
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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The different is that is that Jesus did my salvation. He saved me. He opend my eye for that i am lost and need him. Years before i reject him willingly and said: i dont need him.
And in the word I find the promis: who believes has eternal life!

If I pray for someones healing, i let it also in Gods hands to answer on the best way for him.
I believe that he can heal.
But i cant find the promiss: who believes, never will be physical sick again. It is also nowhere taught to the believers in the NT
And the Spirit God gave to me, says in me: this name it and claim it teaching is wrong.
Thats why it is different!
So what you are saying is that, "name it and claim it" worked for salvation because you believe "Jesus always did your salvation"

But you believe "name it and claim it" won't work for healing because you don't believe "Jesus always did your healing".

That thinking is common among many Christians, so I understand where you are coming from. Cheers
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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So what you are saying is that, "name it and claim it" worked for salvation because you believe "Jesus always did your salvation"

But you believe "name it and claim it" won't work for healing because you don't believe "Jesus always did your healing".

That thinking is common among many Christians, so I understand where you are coming from. Cheers
Name it and claim it donts works ayway
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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So what you are saying is that, "name it and claim it" worked for salvation because you believe "Jesus always did your salvation"

But you believe "name it and claim it" won't work for healing because you don't believe "Jesus always did your healing".

That thinking is common among many Christians, so I understand where you are coming from. Cheers
I not only believe it. He did it.
Name it and claim it works not anyway.
But
Well, unless you believe in universalism, you need to "name it and claim" Jesus's free gift of salvation, in order to be saved.
I am saved 😊thanks the Lord
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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I don't know about your English speaking culture but in mine, there is a difference between accepting a view and understanding the same view.

Just because I choose not to accept your view does not mean I have to misunderstand it. We can agree to disagree but to misunderstand someone's view is another matter altogether.

huh?
 

TheLearner

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No, you are making a false assumption. I was taught that in the bible.
And that is what the early church fathers understood it as too. As I already quoted them.

In fact, up to modern times the Church has always understood it to be a problem with Paul's Eyes.
 

TheLearner

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There is a problem here.
Peters healing of the man begging at the gate was unusual.
Paul and his healing as he preached later on again was unusual.

The healing miracles were so unusual by the next century the church leaders
do not refer to it as a ministry or special thing.

It is only in the 1900 do we start to see again the idea of healing ministries,
and demonstrations of Gods grace to evangelise.

That is a serious problem if one is claiming continuity of Gods working.
It is simply not there so the invention of this theology is false teaching.

God has always healed specially, but that is all.
God bless you
For edification only.

A Dictionary of Miracles: Imitative, Realistic, and Dogmatic : with ...
https://books.google.com/books?id=blUXAAAAYAAJ
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer - 1894

There are many healings in this book, even Augustine prayed and his leg was healed.
 

TheLearner

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I was not assuming, that was why I asked you.

Before I bring in the context of thorn in the OT, can you accept that thorn in the flesh need not have to mean a physical sickness? I am not asking you to believe that, just want to know whether you can accept that Paul was not necessarily talking about sickness.

As an example, if I were to write, "You are such a pain in my neck", do I literally mean you are afflicting my neck?
The use of thorn in the OT study is based on a major word study fallacy.

For example, Jehovah's Witness commit this fallacy when they read the meaning of "one" from John 17 into John 10:30 to get around the fact that Jesus clearly claimed to be God.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Another reason some people think Paul's thorn was
sickness is that the word "infirmities" is used twice in this
passage. Verses 9 and 10 say:

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
for my strength is made perfect in -weakness. Most
gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,
that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I
take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in
necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's
sake:for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2 Corinthians 12:9,10

This word infirmity is used nearly universally nowadays
to refer to some type of a sickness. People say, "This
person has an infirmity." We even call the place where we
send sick people "the infirmary." Although it has an
almost exclusive connotation with sickness in its popular
use today, the meaning of this word infirmity wasn't
limited to sickness at the time that the King James Bible
was written. Take, for example, Romans 8:

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the
Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings
which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:26

Notice the colon :)) after the word "infirmities" and again
after the word "ought."This verse is saying that it is an
infirmity to not know what we should pray for as we
ought.
If you were to look up the word infirmity in the
dictionary, you'd find that it not only means a sickness,
but it could also be any weakness or inadequacy. This is
how it was used in Romans 8:26. Not knowing how to pray
for something is a weakness, an inadequacy, an infirmity
—not a sickness or a disease.
Romans 8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Life in the Spirit
8 So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty. 2 That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you[a] free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death. 3 The law was without power because it was made weak by our sinful selves. But God did what the law could not do: He sent his own Son to earth with the same human life that everyone else uses for sin. God sent him to be an offering to pay for sin. So God used a human life to destroy sin. 4 He did this so that we could be right just as the law said we must be. Now we don’t live following our sinful selves. We live following the Spirit.

5 People who live following their sinful selves think only about what they want. But those who live following the Spirit are thinking about what the Spirit wants them to do. 6 If your thinking is controlled by your sinful self, there is spiritual death. But if your thinking is controlled by the Spirit, there is life and peace. 7 Why is this true? Because anyone whose thinking is controlled by their sinful self is against God. They refuse to obey God’s law. And really they are not able to obey it. 8 Those who are ruled by their sinful selves cannot please God.

9 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. 10 Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God. 11 God raised Jesus from death. And if God’s Spirit lives in you, he will also give life to your bodies that die. Yes, God is the one who raised Christ from death, and he will raise you to life through his Spirit living in you.

12 So, my brothers and sisters, we must not be ruled by our sinful selves. We must not live the way our sinful selves want. 13 If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life.

14 The true children of God are those who let God’s Spirit lead them. 15 The Spirit that we received is not a spirit that makes us slaves again and causes us to fear. The Spirit that we have makes us God’s chosen children. And with that Spirit we cry out, “ Abba, Father.” 16 And the Spirit himself speaks to our spirits and makes us sure that we are God’s children. 17 If we are God’s children, we will get the blessings God has for his people. He will give us all that he has given Christ. But we must suffer like Christ suffered. Then we will be able to share his glory.

We Will Have Glory in the Future
18 We have sufferings now, but these are nothing compared to the great glory that will be given to us. 19 Everything that God made is waiting with excitement for the time when he will show the world who his children are. The whole world wants very much for that to happen. 20 Everything God made was allowed to become like something that cannot fulfill its purpose. That was not its choice, but God made it happen with this hope in view: 21 That the creation would be made free from ruin—that everything God made would have the same freedom and glory that belong to God’s children.

22 We know that everything God made has been waiting until now in pain like a woman ready to give birth to a child. 23 Not only the world, but we also have been waiting with pain inside us. We have the Spirit as the first part of God’s promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us his own children. I mean we are waiting for our bodies to be made free. 24 We were saved to have this hope. If we can see what we are waiting for, that is not really hope. People don’t hope for something they already have. 25 But we are hoping for something we don’t have yet, and we are waiting for it patiently.

26 Also, the Spirit helps us. We are very weak, but the Spirit helps us with our weakness. We don’t know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself speaks to God for us. He begs God for us, speaking to him with feelings too deep for words. 27 God already knows our deepest thoughts. And he understands what the Spirit is saying, because the Spirit speaks for his people in the way that agrees with what God wants.

28 We know that in everything God works for the good of those who love him. These are the people God chose, because that was his plan. 29 God knew them before he made the world. And he decided that they would be like his Son. Then Jesus would be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters. 30 God planned for them to be like his Son. He chose them and made them right with him. And after he made them right, he gave them his glory.

God’s Love in Christ Jesus
31 So what should we say about this? If God is for us, no one can stand against us. And God is with us. 32 He even let his own Son suffer for us. God gave his Son for all of us. So now with Jesus, God will surely give us all things. 33 Who can accuse the people God has chosen? No one! God is the one who makes them right. 34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us. 35 Can anything separate us from Christ’s love? Can trouble or problems or persecution separate us from his love? If we have no food or clothes or face danger or even death, will that separate us from his love? 36 As the Scriptures say,

“For you we are in danger of death all the time.
People think we are worth no more than sheep to be killed.”

37 But in all these troubles we have complete victory through God, who has shown his love for us. 38-39 Yes, I am sure that nothing can separate us from God’s love—not death, life, angels, or ruling spirits. I am sure that nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us or nothing below us—nothing in the whole created world—will ever be able to separate us from the love God has shown us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Romans 8:26

Helpeth our infirmity (sunantilambanetai th asqeneiai hmwn). Present middle indicative of sunantilambanomai, late and striking double compound (Diodorus, LXX, Josephus, frequent in inscriptions, Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 87), to lend a hand together with, at the same time with one. Only twice in N.T., here and Luke 10:40 in Martha's plea for Mary's help. Here beautifully Paul pictures the Holy Spirit taking hold at our side at the very time of our weakness (associative instrumental case) and before too late. How to pray (to ti proseuxwmeqa). Articular clause object of oidamen (we know) and indirect question with the deliberative aorist middle subjunctive proseuxwmeqa, retained in the indirect question. As we ought (kaqo dei). "As it is necessary." How true this is of all of us in our praying. Maketh intercession (uperentugcanei). Present active indicative of late double compound, found only here and in later ecclesiastical writers, but entugcanw occurs in verse Luke 27 (a common verb). It is a picturesque word of rescue by one who "happens on" (entugcanei) one who is in trouble and "in his behalf" (uper) pleads "with unuttered groanings" (instrumental case) or with "sighs that baffle words" (Denney). This is work of our Helper, the Spirit himself.

our weakness; ἀσθενείᾳ
(astheneia) 769: weakness, frailty from asthenés

The correct meaning in your proof text is weakness, not infirmities, you just omitted another word study fallacy. I suggest you find better teachers.

Context determines the correct meaning. Strong's is a weak source, but AT Robertson is spot on.
 

TheLearner

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In case you did not understand my point, I did not say that.

What I am saying is that, when you pray, you declare that by his stripes you are healed, and regardless on whether there is physical proof that the healing took place or not, you put your faith in the Word of God that says you are healed, and enter into the rest, knowing that you are healed.

That is the attitude all of us take when it comes to salvation, and I am saying that should be the same attitude when it comes to divine healing. :)
Ephesians 2:8-10 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The faith in salvation is a gift from God.

Are you aware of any passages where faith in healing is a gift from god?
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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I think these guys do an excellent job refuting the Word faith heresies, and the verses used to push the prosperity gospel.

 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Well, unless you believe in universalism, you need to "name it and claim" Jesus's free gift of salvation, in order to be saved.
Be serious, the bible does nor early church taught a "name it claim it formula".

file:///C:/Chrome%20Downloads/EWKenyon.pdf

In fact, list the tenants of WOF teachers and try to find that combination in the Early Church Fathers, whom the Apostles taught.

Success, Sorcery and Prosperity Gospel Dangers

A closer look at Quantum Faith, Positivism, Mind Power, Law of Success, Positive Confession, Creative Force and Money Preachers

What is a successful Christian ministry? Does it include false teaching, making merchandise of people, and invoking occult powers in the name of "Jesus"? Are Christians really called to "create your own reality" and "name it and claim it" and "write your own ticket with God"?

This instructive biblical seminar explains the dangers of Old/New Age occult practices masquerading as the Word of Faith movement, otherwise known as the Prosperity Gospel. It also soberly clarifies God’s condemnation upon all occult practices, including those that are hijacked from the world of the occult and “Christianized.”
http://chrislawson.libsyn.com/success-sorcery-and-prosperity-gospel-dangers
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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I think these guys do an excellent job refuting the Word faith heresies, and the verses used to push the prosperity gospel.

I do not have speakers, but I have met Justin in person.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Well, unless you believe in universalism, you need to "name it and claim" Jesus's free gift of salvation, in order to be saved.
This really depends upon your soteriology doesn't it? Reformed people believe that salvation is solely from God. That was my experience! God saved me, told me to believe and follow him, and I did. No "name it and claim it" at all.

Even true Arminians believe God's calling opens the door to salvation. I think any Christian should be totally insulted that salvation is "name it and claim it!" This is my biggest objection to the entire Word Faith heresy! A real heresy is about how you view God, or how you are saved.

So, for example, Sabellianism or modalism is a heresy, because it has a totally wrong view of God. It suggests one person, with three "faces" or modes. Such nonsense means that the Father could not send the Spirit to land on the Son at his baptism, because 3 persons are involved, which is not possible, according to modalism. Only one "face" can show at a time!

Arianism, another example, which lowers Christ to being l non Deity, is another serious heresy, dealt with in the first church council in the early 300's. It jumps up now and again, like with the JWs. But, the important point is that it is a heresy. Jesus is God, if he was not, he could not be the perfect, once for all sacrifice for sin, as Hebrews 10 so strongly says. A mere human simple inherits Adam's sin, and commits sin, which Jesus did not!

As far as name it and claim it, God, his will, who he is, is degraded. God is not sovereign, nor is he in control. If his will is for someone to be sick, or poor, some dubious partial verses to justify they are little gods, and therefore, can create their own reality, including health and wealth. God is not on the Throne, but rather those who name and claim what they want, are the power in the throne!

This doctrine defies everything we know about God in the Bible, in history, and in our lives. Here are some other issues which arise from the name it

1. Polytheism. How many gods are there? My Bible says, "the Lord our God is one." Echad is the Hebrew Word, which means one within a plurality, meaning, the Trinity. One being our ousia, with three persons, or hypostasis. It doesn't mean, God, a weak figure up in the sky, who can be commanded by millions of lesser gods, for whatever they want.

In fact, it makes these Word Faith believers, stronger than God. God, becomes lower case god, and Word Faith believers, who can speak over the will of God, become upper case, "Gods." The Sovereign Creator of the universe, submits to the will of mere fallible human beings, and their wants and desires, and falsely claim they are more important than God himself. So millions of superior, arrogant, Gods, if only you grab enough so-called "Faith" apparently a "thing" instead of the total gift of the true and living God!

2. Who is God? I'm sincerely asking what Word Faith people believe, about the most central issue of Christianity, and that is, "Who is God?" And if you are all little gods, or Gods, as it seems by your answers, what is your relationship with the God of the Bible?

Can you overrule his sovereign will? Is God triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Who is more important, God, or all the little gods?


I really would like to know whether you are polytheists? For you yourself said you believe you are a "little god" although I can bet you have not idea where it says that! And who is God, if he is not the Sovereign Creator and Saviour of the Universe, who came to earth as a man, yet still God, and died on the cross for our sins? (No where does it say God died on the cross for our physical healing!) Although of course, part of Jesus' mission was to heal the sick, as prophecies in many places in the OT.

Who is God? Are you polytheists, believing yourself on the same or higher level than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Little gods exegetical study. Only appears in 2 places in the Bible. First the OT quote.

"God stands in the assembly of El;
in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
2 He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions
and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah)
3 Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless!
Vindicate the oppressed and suffering!
4 Rescue the poor and needy!
Deliver them from the power of the wicked!
5 They neither know nor understand.
They stumble around in the dark,
while all the foundations of the earth crumble.
6 I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.”
8 Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth!
For you own all the nations." Psalm 82 NET


Here, God is supposedly addressing foreign gods. And he is clear in verse 7, that they are all going to die like mortals, or other rulers.

It says the same thing in KJV, just a bit more difficult for people like me to understand!

"6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." Psalm 82:6-7 KJV


The only place this recurs is in John, in the NT, where the Pharisees are mad, because Jesus has been calling himself God, which is blasphemy if he is not. If he is God, then no blasphemy!


"31 The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death. 32 Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jewish leaders replied, “We are not going to stone you for a good deed but for blasphemy, because you, a man, are claiming to be God.”

34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not perform the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may come to know and understand that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” John 10:31-38 NET


Jesus is engaging the Jews on the basis of their own Scriptures. This is a word for word citation of Psalm 82, above, from the LXX. It was originally addressed to the gods of other nations, rebuking them for their favouritism towards sinners, and indifference to the poor. (see Psalm 82 vv 2-4 above.). In some traditions, both Jewish and Christian, the passage is taken to refer to judges in Israel, (Perhaps on the basis of biblical texts such as Exod. 21:6 and 22:7-9, 28, where the term "God" seems to refer to the courts)

Jesus, for his part goes on to identify these "gods" to those 'whom the word of God came" (v 35a), an expression more appropriate to biblical prophets than to either gods or judges. In fact, Jesus is not emphasizing his title, that he is the Son of God, but that Jesus is the one that the Father "sent" into the world, confirming that he was the Holy One of God. (John 6:69) Jesus has the priestly aspect in his ministry that he will offer himself as a sacrifice for sin.

In no place, do either of these texts, Psalm 82:6-7 or John 10:31-37 say, declare or affirm that WE are gods! To the contrary, only a brief reading shows Jesus was identifying himself as God, and that calling himself that is only blasphemy is he is not God!

In fact, getting back to the questions of my last post, unless you are perfect, sinless and sent to the cross as an atonement for sin, can you possible claim to be even some kind of Kenneth Copeland "little god??" That is blasphemy, and the entire doctrine remains a heresy.

PS. Feel free to attach Bible passages or whole verses if you want to counter me. I will not be answering stupid questions from people who not only didn't know this, as their posts suggest, but then claimed it for themselves. My most humble opinion, is that one should be very careful when claiming to be a god, with no proof, because that is a trip straight to hell.