No New Birth without the New Covenant

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#1
The supernatural New Birth (born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, born again) could not become a universal reality until the Holy Spirit was *poured out* upon the earth on the Day of Pentecost (AD 30), and the Holy Spirit could not be poured out until the Lord Jesus Christ had finished His mighty work of redemption and ascended to Heaven (AD 30).

Pentecost was fifty days after Passover, and both these feasts were fulfilled at that time. Those who repented and believed would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, which would be the same as being *baptized with* the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This would be followed by Christian baptism (in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Mt 28:19).

Christ s shed blood was *the blood of the New Covenant* (or New Testament) since without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Therefore when Christ instituted the Lord’s Supper, this is what He said in anticipation of His death on the cross: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament (New Covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28) While the blood of Christ (the Lamb of God) was shed for all, the *many* would be those who obeyed the Gospel, and therefore had that blood applied to their souls.

The day Christ died, the New Covenant went into effect. Which means that the Old Covenant became obsolete.

What did the Old Covenant demand in order for the sins of the Israelites and Israel to be *covered* ?
1. The tabernacle (followed by the temple at Jerusalem)
2. The Levitical priesthood
3. The sacrifices of *clean* animals as stipulated by God.


Those sacrifices included (a) whole burnt offerings, (b) meal offerings (called *meat* offerings in the KJV), (c) peace offerings, (d) sin offerings, and (e) trespass offerings. Then there would be many other offerings and sacrifices, including that of the Passover lamb, and all the animals offered on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

But the day Christ suffered, and bled, and died, He made JUST ONE PERFECT OFFERING which replaced all of the above offerings! And the reason for one offering being more than sufficient is that Jesus was GOD who became sinless Man, in order to become the Lamb of God, who would take away the sins of the world. That day when Christ died became the final Day of Atonement (*the Time of Reformation*), therefore the veil in the temple (dividing the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place) was supernaturally torn in two from top to bottom.

Now all of this is fully explained in Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews, but Christians need to get a grasp of these tremendous truths. And here is the summary from Hebrews 9:

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament (New Covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
David must not have gotten the memo.....he speaks of his salvation in the present tense....and add Job to that list as well....Abraham too.......one totally understood the resurrection and the latter being justified by faith <---both requiring salvation and being born again to UNDERSTAND
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
25,005
13,243
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#3
David must not have gotten the memo.....he speaks of his salvation in the present tense....and add Job to that list as well....Abraham too.......one totally understood the resurrection and the latter being justified by faith <---both requiring salvation and being born again to UNDERSTAND
Please explain what the Bible means by "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23) and exactly when did that happen?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,738
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#4
This touches on an interesting question...were OT saints born again?
I tend to think 'no', but haven't solid Scriptural proof.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
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#5
This touches on an interesting question...were OT saints born again?
I tend to think 'no', but haven't solid Scriptural proof.
Jacob does get a new name from God Himself, Israel.
Abram gets a new name, Abraham, at the same time when God makes covenant with him and he trusts in God's promises.
Name means identity.
New name corresponds with their new identity given by God...
If they got new identities, does that mean they were born again...?
It's a good question Crossnote. I am not sure either.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
25,005
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#6
This touches on an interesting question...were OT saints born again?
I tend to think 'no', but haven't solid Scriptural proof.
You are correct, and there is solid Scriptural proof (some by implication). We know that the Holy Spirit came upon the OT saints (particularly the prophets) according to God's will, but the Holy Spirit did NOT take up permanent residence within. Even David pleaded with God to not take away His Spirit from him: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. (Ps 51:11) So they were not born again, and could not be born again until Christ finished His work of redemption, and then sent down the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

At the same time, all the OT saints were justified (declared righteous or saved) by God's grace through faith starting with Abel. Hebrews chapter 11 makes that perfectly clear. But Paul ends that chapter thus: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39,40)

What was this promise? Peter clarified this on the day of Pentecost. The promise was the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

And that promise was tied into the New Covenant:

EZEKIEL 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


JEREMIAH 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:... 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

While these prophecies have a future application to redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ, we know that this went into effect from the day of Pentecost (AD 30). And this is confirmed by Paul in Hebrews 12:22,23 as applicable to the OT saints. In chapter 11 he said that they without us should not be made perfect. But in chapter 12 he said this about the OT saints in the present tense:

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [THE NT SAINTS], which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [THE OT SAINTS]

How were the spirits of just men (justified men, as distinct from the general assembly and Church of the first born) made perfect? We need to recall that all the OT saints went to *Abraham's Bosom* in Sheol/Hades when they died. But Christ visited them for three days and three nights (in the heart of the earth) while He made proclamation of His victory at the cross (He *preached to the spirits in prison*).

On the day of resurrection He destroyed the metaphorical gates of Hades ( He took captivity captive), and then took all the OT saints to the New Jerusalem (as seen above). While we are not told this explicitly, when Paul said that their spirits had been made perfect, it meant that on the day of Pentecost, all those OT saints also received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which would imply that they were also born again on that day.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#7
Years after Pentecost, believers were still waiting. What do you think they were waiting for?

Heb 10:
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For,
“In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,035
1,520
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#8
i agree brother nehemiah. but how can the offerings come back in millennium then?

thats besides topic! sorry. but i agree that things changed when Jesus died and resurrected. new covenant.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
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#9
I believe in Jesus and leave everything up to Him. May God’s will be done.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,035
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#10
sorry if this isnt relate to your thread but i say this also:

in new covenant we got the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus said it cant come unless He goes first which means it wasnt here before that.
in the o.t you can see that the Spirit is going in and out constantly. but its not indwelling permanent like now.

thats why we read things like "spirit of the Lord came upon him" many times from same person. like samson
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#11
Even David pleaded with God to not take away His Spirit from him: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. (Ps 51:11)
What David pleads not to happen is not indicative of the threat of God taking away the Holy Spirit, it is indicative of David's frame of mind though.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
25,005
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#12
What David pleads not to happen is not indicative of the threat of God taking away the Holy Spirit, it is indicative of David's frame of mind though.
That may well be the case, but the possibility was there. However, on the day of Pentecost (and since then) the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to those who repent and believe. And what God gives as a gift of His grace He does not take back. Eternal life is a gift of God's grace.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#13
This touches on an interesting question...were OT saints born again?
I tend to think 'no', but haven't solid Scriptural proof.
I say yes......David could not speak of his salvation in the present tense if he was not born again....and I will remind everyone that NO One can understand the word of GOD unless born from above <---Corinthians states this....Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith IN THE O.T. and JOB fully understood the the resurrection......too much evidence to say they were not.......

What does Peter call those men of old that prophesied? HOLY MEN OF GOD

Can a lost man be considered HOLY.....NO!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#14
What David pleads not to happen is not indicative of the threat of God taking away the Holy Spirit, it is indicative of David's frame of mind though.
AMEN......it is directed at God leading him as KING and being with him as KING.........
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,738
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#15
You are correct, and there is solid Scriptural proof (some by implication). We know that the Holy Spirit came upon the OT saints (particularly the prophets) according to God's will, but the Holy Spirit did NOT take up permanent residence within. Even David pleaded with God to not take away His Spirit from him: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. (Ps 51:11) So they were not born again, and could not be born again until Christ finished His work of redemption, and then sent down the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
I say yes......David could not speak of his salvation in the present tense if he was not born again....and I will remind everyone that NO One can understand the word of GOD unless born from above <---Corinthians states this....Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith IN THE O.T. and JOB fully understood the the resurrection......too much evidence to say they were not.......

What does Peter call those men of old that prophesied? HOLY MEN OF GOD

Can a lost man be considered HOLY.....NO!
Well, there you go. Both sides. Should I be the tie breaker? LOL
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
25,005
13,243
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#17
The bible is clear......so is David speaking of HIS salvation in the present tense......end of story!
No one is disagreeing with that. David was saved just like all the other OT saints -- just like Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness. So they all had imputed righteousness. But the gift of the Holy Spirit (who produces the supernatural New Birth) was given on the day of Pentecost (AD 30). Since then justification and the gift of the Spirit are simultaneous.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,738
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#18
But the gift of the Holy Spirit (who produces the supernatural New Birth) was given on the day of Pentecost (AD 30). Since then justification and the gift of the Spirit are simultaneous.
N6, what do you do with this?...

John 20:22 KJVS
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,738
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#19
I say yes......David could not speak of his salvation in the present tense if he was not born again....and I will remind everyone that NO One can understand the word of GOD unless born from above <---Corinthians states this....Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith IN THE O.T. and JOB fully understood the the resurrection......too much evidence to say they were not.......

What does Peter call those men of old that prophesied? HOLY MEN OF GOD

Can a lost man be considered HOLY.....NO!
I was thinking. We have access to God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 KJVS
[18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#20
I was thinking. We have access to God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 KJVS
[18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Adam walked with God and even after he tried to hide Adam walked with God and had direct contact, God has been speaking to man dia his Spirit, Word and Prophets, preachers and teachers from day one.....I really think many go to seed and over emphasize what really took place in Acts and the N.T. when it comes to the Spirit of God. What took place is the HOLY SPIRIT taking the place of JESUS as the guide/comforter of the church.

Note the following....and none are any different than what took place in the N.T.

For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; His word was on my tongue.

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father David: ’Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?

Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and He said to me, "Say, 'Thus says the LORD, "So you think, house of Israel, for I know your thoughts.

As for me, however, I am filled with power by the Spirit of the LORD, with justice and courage, to declare to Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.