Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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This is a very simplistic answer to this and not trying to be snarky.

Do we make disciples[pupil,learner, follower] of Jesus Christ on the street or under intentional care of a spiritual elder[father/mother] in a fellowship of believers?

Does the Holy Spirit convict/convince a person of hell or of the Love and goodness of a Savior that died for them?
How did Christ do it....he did not just cram the truth down a man's throat.....like the woman at the well...he established a basis for witnessing by having a convo first about water and then began to tell her the truth....
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Hi Stonesoffire, You have multiple questions. I do think Jesus would want us to "preach the Gospel" wherever, and whenever He leads us, street preaching included, 'after His ascension even more so. This is my simple answer but I may not be on target, my recovery is good but slow....:)

"Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in', so that my house will be full." Luke14:23

"All who sin apart from the law 'will also perish apart from the law', and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Romans2:12

Answer, yes I think you are right.
Hi TT, How you doing? I hope it's going well with you and yours.
Just so you know what I want to post is in no way disagreeing with you because the truth is that Jesus said

Mark 16:15
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

I don't know what you think but we need to be the gospel to others.
Not just talk the talk but walk the walk.

Just like Jesus did.

Words that put bums on seats is different from walking with the bums on those seats.

The bums of the society that Jesus came for and loved and walked with.
The hurting, the marginalised, the misfits, the despised and so on.

There is no point opening the front door of the church if they then walk out the back door because we the church have not been the gospel.

As I said my post is not going against what you said.

It just breaks my heart to see people who need Jesus and come to church to leave because all that is done and said is words.

I sit with the alcoholics who come in, the druggies, those who during the service go out for a top up or to have a smoke.

And yes send some have just come to Jesus.

Yet alas there are still some in the church who raise eyebrows and say "You shouldn't be doing this"

The church needs to be ready to be the gospel and walk the walk.
 
Nov 6, 2017
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How did Christ do it....he did not just cram the truth down a man's throat.....like the woman at the well...he established a basis for witnessing by having a convo first about water and then began to tell her the truth....
I do not disagree here at all. We do know Jesus took 3 years to make his disciples. We also know 12[not Judas] were divinely promoted to Apostle after he ascended into heaven.

The woman at the well is great example of sharing the gospel and making converts, but not 1 on 1 intentional discipleship.
In fact, the rest of her fellow Samaritans told her they did not believe any more based on her witness, but because they heard for themselves he was the Messiah.


John 4:[SUP]41-42

41 [/SUP]Many more believed because of His word; [SUP]42 [/SUP]and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”


Discipleship cannot be whittled down to just follower, the word means much more than simply following or follower.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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The 10 commandments are God's words and God is LOVE (1 john 4:8&16) and LOVE is the fulfillment of the law, and LOVE for God is to OBEY His commandments.

Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.”

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. THE WORDS i have spoken to you are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

Jeremiah 36:2 “Take a scroll and write on it all the words I have spoken to you concerning Israel, Judah and all the other nations from the time I began speaking to you in the reign of Josiah till now.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. The light shines in the darkness, but the DARKNESS HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD IT.

Revelation 3:1-6 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; YOU HAVE A REPUTATION OF BEING ALIVE, BUT YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. THEY CLAIM TO KNOW GOD, BUT BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

John 15:20-22 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR THEIR SIN.

Romans 6:15-16 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? BY NO MEANS! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Romans 2:8-16 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who HEAR THE LAW who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who OBEY THE LAW who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when GENTILES, WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, DO BY NATURE things REQUIRED by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Romans 2:26-27 If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is NOT CIRCUMCISED physically and YET OBEYS THE LAW will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only CONTINUE TO DO these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY THE LAW by this faith? Not at all! Rather, WE UPHOLD THE LAW.

Mark 7:6-9 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have LET GO of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions!

Mark 7:13 Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Romans 8:4-7,14 in order that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS of the law might be FULLY MET in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds SET ON WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW, nor can it do so. because those who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 9:4-5 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, THE COVENANTS, THE RECEIVING OF THE LAW, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the GENTILES, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but ISRAEL, who pursued a LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

Romans 13:8-10 LOVE, for the Day Is Near Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW..

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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The 10 commandments are God's words and God is LOVE (1 john 4:8&16) and LOVE is the fulfillment of the law, and LOVE for God is to OBEY His commandments.

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us


As a result of his love we obey him.

He does not love us because we obey. We cannot earn that love. It's freely available.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If we get it Wrong he still loves us.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Hi TT, How you doing? I hope it's going well with you and yours.
Just so you know what I want to post is in no way disagreeing with you because the truth is that Jesus said

Mark 16:15
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

I don't know what you think but we need to be the gospel to others.
Not just talk the talk but walk the walk.

Just like Jesus did.

Words that put bums on seats is different from walking with the bums on those seats.

The bums of the society that Jesus came for and loved and walked with.
The hurting, the marginalised, the misfits, the despised and so on.
There is no point opening the front door of the church if they then walk out the back door because we the church have not been the gospel.

As I said my post is not going against what you said.

It just breaks my heart to see people who need Jesus and come to church to leave because all that is done and said is words.

I sit with the alcoholics who come in, the druggies, those who during the service go out for a top up or to have a smoke.

And yes send some have just come to Jesus.

Yet alas there are still some in the church who raise eyebrows and say "You shouldn't be doing this", (wondering why say this)

The church needs to be ready to be the gospel and walk the walk.
Hi BillG I agree and let it begin with me. The Church where I began to grow in Christ Jesus disciplined within its membership. If you do not discipline, "new believers", from the beginning you will end up with a Corinthian type Church with many problems. There are more knowledgeable people on this forum who work with ex-gang members, drug addicts and homeless folks, who will have solutions to new believer's who come into the local Church.

The Program our Church found successful was called, "Clean up your Acts", where a believer like you and I came along side of someone with many issues to help them back on their feet. If God is leading you maybe you should start a ministry in support of the homeless and less fortunate folks. Yes I am on the mend thank you, but its a slow plow getting better, God bless,

"Words that put bums on seats is different from walking with the bums on those seats."

"The bums of the society that Jesus came for and loved and walked with.
The hurting, the marginalised, the misfits, the despised and so on."
"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew18:15-17
 
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Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us


As a result of his love we obey him.

He does not love us because we obey. We cannot earn that love. It's freely available.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If we get it Wrong he still loves us.
God loves us so much to the point of giving us His only begotten Son Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Do we not ought to love God by OBEYING His commands?

1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

Hebrews 5:7-10 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Good morning from the Philippines and God bless us all. GOD IS LOVE!!!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Hi BillG I agree and let it begin with me. The Church where I began to grow in Christ Jesus disciplined within its membership. If you do not discipline, "new believers", from the beginning you will end up with a Corinthian type Church with many problems. There are more knowledgeable people on this forum who work with ex-gang members, drug addicts and homeless folks, who will have solutions to new believer's who come into the local Church.

The Program our Church found successful was called, "Clean up your Acts", where a believer like you and I came along side of someone with many issues to help them back on their feet. If God is leading you maybe you should start a ministry in support of the homeless and less fortunate folks. Yes I am on the mend thank you, but its a slow plow getting better, God bless,



"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew18:15-17
Thanks for responding.
The me what I am trying to convey and reveal, is that the people I am taking about are not in church membership.
They have cube come to church because they heard the gospel, when they do then let's be the gospel.

Then if they come into church membership (and I hate that use that term) then we disciple and do not discipline.

However I do agree if after discipleship then discipline is needed it should be enacted.

But we need to be very careful as to what constitutes sin that leads to discipline.

What say you the sins that would lead to discipline.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
God loves us so much to the point of giving us His only begotten Son Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Do we not ought to love God by OBEYING His commands?

1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

Hebrews 5:7-10 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Good morning from the Philippines and God bless us all. GOD IS LOVE!!!
Would you not say it's a response out of love and not to prove our love. Yes Jesus came to earth to show us his love and proved it.

When we love him back we obey and prove it, not for approval but because we love.

Enjoy your day and may God bless you brother.

It's bedtime over here in the UK.
So me is retiring.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Thanks for responding.
The me what I am trying to convey and reveal, is that the people I am taking about are not in church membership.
They have cube come to church because they heard the gospel, when they do then let's be the gospel.

Then if they come into church membership (and I hate that use that term) then we disciple and do not discipline.

However I do agree if after discipleship then discipline is needed it should be enacted.

But we need to be very careful as to what constitutes sin that leads to discipline.

What say you the 'sins that would lead to discipline.'
How about, "not being the person my dog thinks I am."......:)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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This is a very simplistic answer to this and not trying to be snarky.

Do we make disciples[pupil,learner, follower] of Jesus Christ on the street or under intentional care of a spiritual elder[father/mother] in a fellowship of believers?

Does the Holy Spirit convict/convince a person of hell or of the Love and goodness of a Savior that died for them?

Sons are birthed now beastslayer, not disciples. But, Sons are instantly born on the streets and in church settings too. Any place God speaks is a place where a son can be born again. But, I understand your point. It takes teaching for a son to know who and what they are.

Its the difference of the ministry of reconciliation from what we hear from pulpits Sunday mornings. Or maybe it's just my experience. Maybe all of you heard you were dead with Jesus so we could rise with Him too in eternal life?

I heard over and over about being a sinner in sins. It took me a long time before I knew that God calls me righteous in His Son. The very righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Raised with Him in righteousness. How awesome is this!

What i heard, I passed on. I can see why my evangelism wasn't so successful. Lol


I had my eyes opened a bit wider with these passages in Corinthians.

Do you all get it though? Father looks at all of us as the same. No one person better than another. All dead in sins. Nobody is looking for God. I know that we've read this but how many believe it? How many want to ascribe some kind of goodness to themselves, by saying, I was always looking for God.

nope! All dead in sin. That we all can be raised with Him. All! Who would refuse?

To choose this would imo pierce every hardened heart for its perfect love flowing from God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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WERE YOU SENT BY GOD?

Luke 6:43-45 A Tree and Its Fruit “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. FOR OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF HIS HEART , HIS MOUTH SPEAKS..

WHO ARE CLAIMING TO BE “STILL SINNERS” OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF THEIR HEART???

John 3:34 For the one whom GOD HAS SENT speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.



This thread and it’s author implies that there’s no need for works to a FAITH ALONE that SAVES(faith void of works).

SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS IF IT’S APART FROM FAITH (eph 2:8-9) JUST AS FAITH ALONE APART FROM WORKS OF LOVE,OBEDIENCE AND FAITH IS DEAD (james 2:14-26)

IF WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE (eph 5:23) AREN’T WE EXPECTED TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS (john 14:12-15)AND DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION (1cor 3:9, 12:28 mat 25:21-30, 9:37-38 eph 4:12-13, rom 12: 3-8, 1 tim 4:16) AS WE ARE TO DO HIS WILL HERE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN (mat 6:10)

John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is TO DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME AND TO FINISH HIS WORK. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I SENT YOU to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.”

John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and WHICH I AM DOING, TESTIFIES that the Father has SENT me.

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who SENT me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.

John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, WE MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have SENT THEM into the world.

John 20:21-22 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I AM SENDING YOU.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

ONE SURE WAY TO RECOGNIZE THOSE WHO WERE NOT SENT ACCORDING TO THE VERSES ABOVE IS TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO.

DO THEY PREACH AGAINST THE WORKS THAT GOD HAS PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO BY SAYING THAT: “FAITH ALONE SAVES AND IT IS VOID OF WORKS.”?

DO THEY PREACH THAT; “WORKS ARE WORKS ARE WORKS.”?
THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDMENTS CANNOT SAVE EVEN THOSE BELIEVERS WHO CONFESS WITH THEIR MOUTHS THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN THEIR HEARTS THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

DO THEY PREACH THAT SINCE THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED REGARDLESS OF THEIR WILLFUL AND CONTINUOUS SINNING(manifested by their arguments against those who push for continuous faith and are against willful sinning).

DO THEY PROMOTE SIN BY SAYING THAT THOSE WHO ARE CLAIMING THAT THOSE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT IS A NEW CREATION AND THEREFORE MUST NOT SIN OR CEASE FROM SINNING, ARE LIARS ACCDG. TO 1JOHN 1:8 WHICH THEY LOVE TO QUOTE BUT REJECTING THE WHOLE TRUTH EXPRESSED IN THE BIBLE? WHICH ONLY PROVES THIS VERSES BELOW TO BE TRUE:

Romans 8:5-9 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds SET ON WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.

WOULD THE SPIRIT OF GOD DESIRE SIN?

Galatians 2:17-18 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are SINNERS, does that mean that Christ PROMOTES SIN? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.

Romans 6:15 What then? SHALL WE SIN because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is ONE WITH HIM IN SPIRIT.

John 16:13 But when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11,15-20 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. AND THAT IS WHAT SOME OF YOU WERE. But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT .MY FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:21-23 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ASHAMED OF? Those things result in death! But NOW that you have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to HOLINESS, and the result is ETERNAL LIFE. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only CONTINUE TO DO these very things but also APPROVE of those who practice them.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

Psalm 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of THEIR FOLLOWERS, who APPROVE their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.

THEREFORE:

Romans 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? AND HOW CAN THEY PREACH UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

When a man with many works, usually has a lot of sin to hide.

1 Timothy 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Every accidental speed in speeding is IS SIN.

Every no-liter rule IS SIN.

Every no parking rule in you park IS SIN.

Every posted you must pick up your dog poop, IS SIN.

Every posted low noise rule and loud radio IS SIN.

Every no smoking rule, if you smoke, IS SIN.

Every non-stop at intersection controlled by a stop sign, IS SIN.



NO MATTER any of these signs you choose to vilolate, IS SIN.

AND YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE YOU DO NOT SIN.
 
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Sons are birthed now beastslayer, not disciples. But, Sons are instantly born on the streets and in church settings too. Any place God speaks is a place where a son can be born again. But, I understand your point. It takes teaching for a son to know who and what they are.

Its the difference of the ministry of reconciliation from what we hear from pulpits Sunday mornings. Or maybe it's just my experience. Maybe all of you heard you were dead with Jesus so we could rise with Him too in eternal life?

I heard over and over about being a sinner in sins. It took me a long time before I knew that God calls me righteous in His Son. The very righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Raised with Him in righteousness. How awesome is this!

What i heard, I passed on. I can see why my evangelism wasn't so successful. Lol


I had my eyes opened a bit wider with these passages in Corinthians.

Do you all get it though? Father looks at all of us as the same. No one person better than another. All dead in sins. Nobody is looking for God. I know that we've read this but how many believe it? How many want to ascribe some kind of goodness to themselves, by saying, I was always looking for God.

nope! All dead in sin. That we all can be raised with Him. All! Who would refuse?

To choose this would imo pierce every hardened heart for its perfect love flowing from God.
So sorry, I did in fact misunderstand you, it was not you, it was me.

I have posted right here and on this thread and other threads that we are dead in Christ and raised into newness of life with him [See all of Romans 6, not just verse 23] and as a result of being raised into new life we are no longer a sinner, but a born again saint,and one that will still sin, because we are not perfect or sinless, but the new man should not be entangled by sin and has power over sin, because the work of reconciliation done by Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ, give us our choice back regarding sin.

Not one person said anything about this truth. I was told by many in this thread and other threads to shut up, because I was pushing sinless perfection. The real to good to be true gospel, is that we died with him and then are raised into newness of life with him. This is the whole message found in all of Romans 6.

So I shut up and refused to post a truth you seem to have found, so good for you, I do mean this. This is the truth that sets people free. Satan loves a believer to think they are still a poor old sinner saved by grace, when the Bible teaches you become a new creature, a sin-forgiven saint, that will still sin because we are not perfect or sinless, but we are given grace to overcome sin and not let us entangle us, so we are free to run our race unrestrained.

You would think that everyone would jump for joy about this, and many do. Most do not because they do not see it as clearly as the Spirit showed you, but when they do see this truth...this truth sets them free and not to go live a sin filled life, no ma'am, but to live a Titus 2:11-15 life, which means victory now, not later, which means overcoming now, not later.

This is the life more abundantly that Jesus came to bring us.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
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Would you not say it's a response out of love and not to prove our love. Yes Jesus came to earth to show us his love and proved it.

When we love him back we obey and prove it, not for approval but because we love.

Enjoy your day and may God bless you brother.

It's bedtime over here in the UK.
So me is retiring.
Thanks bro. I remember getting my transcient(C1D).visa approved first before I can go to the USA to work as an F&B staff in a cruise ship travelling the Carribean & South America. I thought we still need approval to get to heaven or the new earth/new Jerusalem.

New International Version 1984 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Have a good night sleep bro.
 
Nov 6, 2017
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When a man with many works, usually has a lot of sin to hide.

1 Timothy 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Every accidental speed in speeding is IS SIN.

Every no-liter rule IS SIN.

Every no parking rule in you park IS SIN.

Every posted you must pick up your dog poop, IS SIN.

Every posted low noise rule and loud radio IS SIN.

Every no smoking rule, if you smoke, IS SIN.

Every non-stop at intersection controlled by a stop sign, IS SIN.



NO MATTER any of these signs you choose to vilolate, IS SIN.

AND YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE YOU DO NOT SIN.

I do not expect VCO to answer this, because I know he is recovering from a stroke, and I have prayed that God would restore him fully. I do have to comment on his post and if he can answer that would be great. I am not trying to intentionally frustrate him or others, and wanted the thread to know that, so I am not needlessly attacked for picking on a brother whose health is recovering.


What is the opposite of disobeying all the signs?

Are you telling us a person cannot mature to the point that one day they can obey all these signs and do so everyday?

If a person does obey all these signs and everyday does that make this person perfect and sinless or does this make a person who has matured in regards to these signs and mature enough to not violate them out of love and respect for sign makers and the things they seek to enforce?

Now please VCO and anyone, think about this. The quick answer is to say nobody can obey those signs all day and everyday and to instantly go to sinless perfection.

Now along these lines let me ask you something, Do you stop at all red lights? You most likely do, because it is a instinct developed in you starting at drivers ED. You do not go through all red lights because bad things happen.

If you have mastered the ability to stop at all red lights, how can you not say that about maturing against sin?

Now how many times have you gone a whole day and during that day you stopped at 50 out 50 red lights, and never ran one that day? You have matured to the point you did not run any of those 50 red lights, right? lets say now, you have matured to the point that you will NEVER run a red light, not even doing a rolling stop can tempt you. Praise God, through intentional obedience, doing what is right and teaching your Spirit to intentionally and instinctively stop at a red light, you do not run red lights anymore!

Now you might run a red light every now and then, and the same is for sin, but the point is, running red lights is not habitual to you any more, it is more instinctual and practical for you to stop at a red light now. The same for a particular sin, you might do that sin once in a great while, but it is no longer entangling you.


Does that make you perfect?

Absolutely not, because you continue to fail to yield, because to yield when nobody is there to yield to, Well, this just drives you nuts. So you have matured over running red lights, but now have to work on learning to yield.

This is how Jesus taught us to live, while here on earth.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
I do not expect VCO to answer this, because I know he is recovering from a stroke, and I have prayed that God would restore him fully. I do have to comment on his post and if he can answer that would be great. I am not trying to intentionally frustrate him or others, and wanted the thread to know that, so I am not needlessly attacked for picking on a brother whose health is recovering.


What is the opposite of disobeying all the signs?

Are you telling us a person cannot mature to the point that one day they can obey all these signs and do so everyday?

If a person does obey all these signs and everyday does that make this person perfect and sinless or does this make a person who has matured in regards to these signs and mature enough to not violate them out of love and respect for sign makers and the things they seek to enforce?

Now please VCO and anyone, think about this. The quick answer is to say nobody can obey those signs all day and everyday and to instantly go to sinless perfection.

Now along these lines let me ask you something, Do you stop at all red lights? You most likely do, because it is a instinct developed in you starting at drivers ED. You do not go through all red lights because bad things happen.

If you have mastered the ability to stop at all red lights, how can you not say that about maturing against sin?

Now how many times have you gone a whole day and during that day you stopped at 50 out 50 red lights, and never ran one that day? You have matured to the point you did not run any of those 50 red lights, right? lets say now, you have matured to the point that you will NEVER run a red light, not even doing a rolling stop can tempt you. Praise God, through intentional obedience, doing what is right and teaching your Spirit to intentionally and instinctively stop at a red light, you do not run red lights anymore!

Now you might run a red light every now and then, and the same is for sin, but the point is, running red lights is not habitual to you any more, it is more instinctual and practical for you to stop at a red light now. The same for a particular sin, you might do that sin once in a great while, but it is no longer entangling you.


Does that make you perfect?

Absolutely not, because you continue to fail to yield, because to yield when nobody is there to yield to, Well, this just drives you nuts. So you have matured over running red lights, but now have to work on learning to yield.

This is how Jesus taught us to live, while here on earth.
Do you with that Paul had not put this verse in there:

1 Timothy 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

AND THESE VERSES by Peter:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


But, alas HE DID, GOD DID EVERY VERVE IN SCRIPTURE.
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
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Do you with that Paul had not put this verse in there:

1 Timothy 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

AND THESE VERSES by Peter:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


But, alas HE DID, GOD DID EVERY VERVE IN SCRIPTURE.
My prayer for you is that you make a full and speedy recovering and that those providing your care will honor you as they care for you.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
When a man with many works, usually has a lot of sin to hide.

1 Timothy 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

1 Peter 2:13-17 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Every accidental speed in speeding is IS SIN.

Every no-liter rule IS SIN.

Every no parking rule in you park IS SIN.

Every posted you must pick up your dog poop, IS SIN.

Every posted low noise rule and loud radio IS SIN.

Every no smoking rule, if you smoke, IS SIN.

Every non-stop at intersection controlled by a stop sign, IS SIN.



NO MATTER any of these signs you choose to vilolate, IS SIN.

AND YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE YOU DO NOT SIN.

The first command says we are to love our God with ALL our heart. ALL our mind, and ALL our soul.

Anyone who thinks he can obey this command 24/7 is pretty much fooling himself..
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
The first command says we are to love our God with ALL our heart. ALL our mind, and ALL our soul.

Anyone who thinks he can obey this command 24/7 is pretty much fooling himself..

2 Corinthians 5:14 The love of the Messiah controls us, for we are convinced of this: that one person died for all people; therefore, all people have died.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness would be produced in us.

2 Corinthians 5:12 We are not recommending ourselves to you again but are giving you a reason to be proud of us, so that you can answer those who are proud of outward things rather than inward character.

If we could do any of the commandments 24/7, wouldn't there be something to boast about? :)

What God has done for us is to put sinful humanity to death, raised us back up as a new creation. Given us His very own Spirit, and He is creating within us His own image.

Do we have to sin? We will if we see ourselves as sinful.




 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance?”



1 Corinthians 1:28-31, “And יהוה has chosen the low-born of the world and the despised, and the ones that are not, that He might bring to naught the ones that are, so that no flesh should boast in His presence. And of Him you are in Messiah יהושע, who became for us wisdom from יהוה, righteousness also, and set-apartness and redemption, that, as it has been written, “He who boasts, let him boast in יהוה.” (Jer 9:23-24)


Jeremiah 9:23-26, “Thus said יהוה, “Let not the wise boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty boast in his might, nor let the rich boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am יהוה, doing loving-commitment, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” declares יהוה, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall punish all circumcised with the uncircumcised; Mitsrayim, and Yehuḏah, and Eḏom, and the children of Ammon, and Mo’aḇ, and all those trimmed on the edges, who dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Yisra’ĕl are uncircumcised in heart!”