Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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If Jesus chose Judas why did he say

John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
John 13:18 states - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Was Jesus ignorant to the fact that Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Obviously not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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God does not demand perfection. But he demands fruit. If you do not produce fruit you will be cut off. If you produce little fruit, you will be purged so as to produce more fruit.
I looked over a bunch of stuff you all of a sudden quoted (after a few days) And this is the only one I think needs responded to....

If you do not think God requires perfection, You do not understand who God is at all. If perfection is not required. there may be some who may have sinned, but not fallen short of that standard God demands (his glory) and as such, would never need saved.

in fact, we could save ourselves and jesus would never have had to come to the cross..

Thanks for mocking Jesus, Mocking the cross. And Mocking God bu declairing he does not require perfection.
 
May 20, 2018
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I looked over a bunch of stuff you all of a sudden quoted (after a few days) And this is the only one I think needs responded to....

If you do not think God requires perfection, You do not understand who God is at all. If perfection is not required. there may be some who may have sinned, but not fallen short of that standard God demands (his glory) and as such, would never need saved.

in fact, we could save ourselves and jesus would never have had to come to the cross..

Thanks for mocking Jesus, Mocking the cross. And Mocking God bu declairing he does not require perfection.
But God does require perfection. That is supplied by the blood of Jesus, and kept through the Holy Spirit. Any requirement God imposes he handles beginning with his grace and and endinhg with his mercy. For his mercy will always preceed his justice for those who trust him.
Do modern Christians even know what the*Good News* of the New Testament is? The prominent factor among the many?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Do you see the evil you are forced to accept, when you believe that everyone who submits to Christian Water Baptism, is a real Christian?

ONE BAPTISM, is the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT, immersing us into the spiritual BODY of Christ, birthing our once dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE. . . . Ref: 1 Cor. 12:13
How evil is it to be water baptized? You use the word 'evil' as if I were sacrificing a chicken before I am water baptized and being baptized in the name of satan.

The bible is very clear that Jesus wants us to be water baptized. So stop with the 'evil' business.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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I looked over a bunch of stuff you all of a sudden quoted (after a few days) And this is the only one I think needs responded to....

If you do not think God requires perfection, You do not understand who God is at all. If perfection is not required. there may be some who may have sinned, but not fallen short of that standard God demands (his glory) and as such, would never need saved.

in fact, we could save ourselves and jesus would never have had to come to the cross..

Thanks for mocking Jesus, Mocking the cross. And Mocking God bu declairing he does not require perfection.
He does finally require perfection. But he does not require perfection in this earthlife. Perfection will come later, when we are resurrected and Jesus, through his grace, will make us sinless. The perfection of our body and our spirit, along with the perfection of a sinless soul is the ultimate goal of God, which allows him to let us into his presence and live with him forever. But he does not require, nor can he give us perfection now, we are in a fallen state.

Stop with the 'mocking' theme. I do not mock things holy.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
How evil is it to be water baptized? You use the word 'evil' as if I were sacrificing a chicken before I am water baptized and being baptized in the name of satan.

The bible is very clear that Jesus wants us to be water baptized. So stop with the 'evil' business.

this is a strawman argument

because the point VCO made has nothing to do with the cerimony of water baptism being evil

it has to do with the false gospel of addings requirements to the gift of God

and saying works save through a cerimony

the point vco was stating is that the physical only represents something spiritual

but the two arent always hand and hand

for instance

just because two homosexual men decide to have a marriage cerimony

it does not mean God has joined them together and sanctified their relationship spiritually
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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You still fail to see that it is CHRIST that GIVES FAITH, FINISHES FAITH and COMPLETES FAITH and your view makes JESUS into a inept liar that CANNOT finish what HE STARTED.....the second paragraph is nothing more than a straw man argument based upon ignorance....MISTHOS is wages and or reward PAID for faithful service and out of the SPIRITUAL LOVE that GD deals to believers they are MOTIVATED to serve and EARN MISTHOS......
If Christ gives everything, what is your responsiblibity?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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this is a strawman argument

because the point VCO made has nothing to do with the cerimony of water baptism being evil

it has to do with the false gospel of addings requirements to the gift of God

and saying works save through a cerimony

the point vco was stating is that the physical only represents something spiritual

but the two arent always hand and hand

for instance

just because two homosexual men decide to have a marriage cerimony

it does not mean God has joined them together and sanctified their relationship spiritually
It is VCO who has set up a strawman. Jesus made it very clear that this cerimony is to be accomplished in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS. If you wish not to participate, then you have your free agency, but to kick against it, I don't know why you would do that, with all the biblical instances of baptism by water.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
It is VCO who has set up a strawman. Jesus made it very clear that this cerimony is to be accomplished in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS. If you wish not to participate, then you have your free agency, but to kick against it, I don't know why you would do that, with all the biblical instances of baptism by water.
wrong
Jesus made it clear He is the only way😏

and we are saved by grace through faith


not your silly additions the bible in no way suggest aid in salvation
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
wrong
Jesus made it clear He is the only way😏

and we are saved by grace through faith


not your silly additions the bible in no way suggest aid in salvation
It is VCO who has set up a strawman. Jesus made it very clear that this cerimony is to be accomplished in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS. If you wish not to participate, then you have your free agency, but to kick against it, I don't know why you would do that, with all the biblical instances of baptism by water.
another strawman (youre going 2 for 2) is you turning this into a wether or not someone should partake in this physical cerimony which only represents something spiritual


the point is water baptism (does not save nor make your faith genuine) is not the same thing as the baptism of The Holy Spirit (a response to a genuine saving faith)


and your false understanding on this issue

causes some of your many issues in regards to being able to rightly divide the Word
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Free will is a fallacy. It is not biblical (except for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden). It is IMPOSSIBLE to have "free" will because you will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do. And before we are saved we have no desire to follow God.... "There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." Romans 3: 11. Not even God has free will... because He could not and will not EVER sin, or else He would cease to be God.

Free will is a system invented by men full of pride not wanting to believe that God is in complete control of everything, especially our eternal salvation. We are so flawed and this is a prime example of our foolishness. FREE WILL IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. Yes, God commands us to do things but that does not mean we are ABLE to do so without God's intervention and power. It is not about us. An example is the ten commandments....... do you think God ever thought any person would be able to keep the commandments perfectly their whole life? Of course not. But He still commanded us to obey and still does. He commands us to believe, but many do not believe. Not because of a flawed human's free will, but because of God's PERFECT WILL.
So God's perfect wil, wills that some do not believe in him? I don't think so. Free will is the centerpiece of Godhood. Without the ability to choose, you become nothing more than a puppet of God. And if you believe that, then you believe that God wills good things on some and He wills evil things on others.

The idea that we will NEVER do something that you do NOT desire to do is the fallacy. There are many things that I desire to do, which I do not do because I choose to do the things that are pleasing to God, instead of giving in to my animal instincts that can be destructive to my salvation. So I choose God, not my animal instincts, and then God, seeing that my choice was good, lends His Spirit and we become partners in the path to salvation.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Joshua <----CHOOSE you this day WHOM you will serve.
GOD to DAVID <---I offer you three choices, CHOOSE one <--for numbering the people

TWO of many......Choice indicates the will to chose and your very last two examples = will and the right to chose....wow man...slow down and think about what you actually say....
We agree. Hurray. Thanks for these examples. Right on target.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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What a bunch of drivel about the issue. We do what we choose to do. We make decisions many times a day. Some of those decisions have consequences down the road. Are you trying to tell me that we have no choice? Did God program us to make only certain decisions like a programmed robot? Paul stated he had the law of sin in him. His mind wanted to do God's will but that law of sin caused him to choose sin. He admitted he chose it. That is the dilemma all Christians face. We keep CHOOSING sin. The fact that we choose means we have free will. God at judgement time will judge all non Christians on what they choose to do!!! Are you saying God Christians are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That removes the penalty of the law from us. The law we freely chose to break. I have been watching Netflix videos of WWII on my android tablet. The people of Germany willingly followed Hitler into the bloodbath they suffered from following him. They rejoiced in his early victories. They kept following him even as they were being invaded from the east and west. They never gave up. They chose that path. Even as Berlin was being invaded those civilians that he came in contact with treated him like a hero. They still chose to follow him.

We get to freely choose what we do and God will judge non Christians on their choices.

Choosing means we have free will!!!
You are right. To me free will is the centerpiece of who God is.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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God would draw all men unto Him so they could hear the Gospel. Whether they/we accept God's free gift of salvation is down to our free will.
Exactly, if God eliminated free will, and it was His will that pervaded everything we do, He would not be able to judge us. No judgement, no heaven or hell. Just a frustrated creation.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You don't think repentance and faith are works?

NOT AT ALL , NO ONE CAN COME EXCEPT FOR THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It is NOT A WORK OF THE INDIVIDUAL. IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


John 6:44 (CSBBible)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 (CSBBible)
65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (CSBBible)
3 Therefore I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," {with Genuine, Truthful MEANING} except by the Holy Spirit.


SEE IT? It is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT SELF.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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wrong
Jesus made it clear He is the only way😏

and we are saved by grace through faith


not your silly additions the bible in no way suggest aid in salvation
Baptism is not a silly add on. If Jesus tells us to be baptized, is that silly to you?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Baptism is not a silly add on. If Jesus tells us to be baptized, is that silly to you?
third strawman ben
youre on a roll
3 for 3

the cerimony of water baptism is not silly in itself <- your strawman suggestest that is what i implied

it's silly that you add requirements in the form of works to Gods free gift


just like it's silly when He promises His gift to us is eternal life

you think He takes it away based on works


this would make it not grace
nor gift
nor eternal


from how i see your false understanding

Gods "offer" (not gift) would be more like "and you are saved by deeds and wisdom if you learn enough of my standards ... not of grace lest any man have complete assurance and i promise to you i will eventually decide if i want to bestow upon you eternal life... so long as you do enough constantly you will still have access to this deal... but you do not recieve any of your share for this deal until much later if i feel you did enough for me"
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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NOT AT ALL , NO ONE CAN COME EXCEPT FOR THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It is NOT A WORK OF THE INDIVIDUAL. IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


John 6:44 (CSBBible)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 (CSBBible)
65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (CSBBible)
3 Therefore I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," {with Genuine, Truthful MEANING} except by the Holy Spirit.


SEE IT? It is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT SELF.
Do you see it? You want to put everything on God and Jesus and nothing on self. If God and Jesus do everything, then according to that doctrine, They will save some and they will cause others to be cast into hell. I believe self has to be involved in the saving process or else there could be no judgement, because God does to us according to his will. And if it is according to his will, it is done and finished and there could be no judgement. No judgement, no heaven or hell.

Besides there are many examples in the bible, where people have been drawn to Jesus by God, and have been saved, but have rejected and left Jesus. Was that God's will?

Yes, you can always say they were never saved in the first place. Then it comes to interpretation and judgement, and not on any factual evidence, but just say so. If someone rejects Jesus it is not likely that you will ever know whether they were saved before they rejected or not. Only God knows the heart of a person. He will judge, except if he has decided to send this person to hell, there will be no judgement other than His good pleasure.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,569
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North Carolina
NOT AT ALL , NO ONE CAN COME EXCEPT FOR THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It is NOT A WORK OF THE INDIVIDUAL. IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


John 6:44 (CSBBible)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 (CSBBible)
65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (CSBBible)
3 Therefore I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," {with Genuine, Truthful MEANING} except by the Holy Spirit.


SEE IT? It is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT SELF.

Amen