Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
Why did Christ say he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword?
The sword was symbolic of a dividing object, like slashing something into two parts.

Well we can see that he did manage to divide the world into two parts, just as He said He would.

He has divided the world into Christians and non Christians, all of the non believers are in the same boat. Catholic's, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus and every other group are in the same boat and the Christians are in the other. So there are only two groups of people in the world, those who are going to heaven and those who are going to hell.

Christ came to bring division into the world, to set family members against each other. He never came to bring peace and unity, that's the Catholic and Islamic Jesus
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,287
4,238
113
Most Christians who adhere to scripture don't agree with the fact that I did not repent or have faith when God revealed himself to me. My testimony is very similar to Paul's. I was knocked off my high horse of spiteful unbelief by a very intense experience. One that became the Pinnacle of my unwavering faith and innability to ever deny the truth in the word of God. Can salvation happen like that?
You have mourns over your sins and repented since then, right?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,287
4,238
113
Was Demas saved, VCO? He was a fellowlaborer with Paul, then forsook him, "having loved this present world". Did his faith fade?
I did not see that HE forsook the faith. He forsook Paul, NOT THE SAME AS FORSAKING THE FAITH. Yes he could have made a better Choice. I suppose he could have love the world more than Jesus, but they do not give us enough information to know that. So I have to assume HE FORSOOK Paul, because it was the Mission field he was forsaken. If a missionary comes home from the Mission Field early, Yes He could be valuable to train other missionaries, or adult Sunday School in his local Church. So God can use him in either place.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
And your words sound very JEWISH rootish.....I am not under the Torah.....too bad you place yourself under it.....SO.....since you insist on placing yourself under the "TORAH" YOU must keep all 613 laws 24/7/365 without breaking one of the least....if you do...guilty and hell to pay.......good luck
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

New International Version 1984 2 John 1:5-11 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Romans 3:29-31 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, WE UPHOLD THE LAW.

Romans 1:28-32 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Titus 1:15-16 to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN
.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR " (Romans 3;3-4)
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
132
63
  • The only thing that makes us righteous and keeps us righteous is obedience.
  • The only way we love God and Love our neighbor is by obedience.
  • The only way we are justified is by obedience.
  • The only way faith functions is by obedience.

Disobedience = Unrighteousness
Disobedience = Hate
Disobedience = Lawlessness
Disobedience = Dead Faith




If you don't understand any or all of these things, then please ask me for the scriptures, that pertain to these statements and we will discuss them.



The Life of Jesus within us, desires to express obedience, and lead us in the way of righteousness and love.

The sin within our flesh desires to express itself through unrighteousness.


Our choice is be a slave to sin by obeying the sin in our flesh, or be a slave to righteousness, by obeying the Spirit of Christ within us.


  • Only Christians who have obeyed the Gospel, have this choice, in which they have a new nature that is compatible with righteousness and holiness, able to contain the Holy Spirit and be led by the Spirit, having dominion over sin that dwells in our physical body.


Everyone else is a slave to sin.


Your Lord, your master, is the one you obey:


  • “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:16-19


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,

  • whether of sin leading to death,
  • or of obedience leading to righteousness?




JPT
If you're relying on your obedience to stay saved you might want to rethink your plan. Since Heaven requires 100% righteousness and 0% sin our only chance at salvation is by being in Christ. All our obedience, good works whatever are as filthy rags. ONLY Jesus saves. Not Jesus plus obedience or Jesus plus anything else.

That is why muslims place such a high priority on obedience. They are trying to save themselves. Salvation is by Christ alone.

Not saying you or anyone else is a muslim, it was just an example.
 
May 20, 2018
225
117
43
Ohio
Jesus used the phrase “inherit the kingdom” in the Day of Judgement to determine who would be welcome in His kingdom with Him, and who be sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell along with the devil and his angels.


34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34


Or


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JPT
Jesus uses many examples of why one is not fit for and Paul says many reasons why one won't inherit the kingdom. I fall into some of those.
 
May 20, 2018
225
117
43
Ohio
If you're relying on your obedience to stay saved you might want to rethink your plan. Since Heaven requires 100% righteousness and 0% sin our only chance at salvation is by being in Christ. All our obedience, good works whatever are as filthy rags. ONLY Jesus saves. Not Jesus plus obedience or Jesus plus anything else.

That is why muslims place such a high priority on obedience. They are trying to save themselves. Salvation is by Christ alone.

Not saying you or anyone else is a muslim, it was just an example.
Now here is the bottom line truth in the saving grace of God. He didn't fire the starting gun and leave the race to the best of anything but his own mercy and Grace in Christ. For it to not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who sheweth mercy.
It is Christ and only Christ in which we trust in for the righteousness needed for eternal life in the presence of the Trinity.
Anything else and you leave room for endless leaven from many directions.
Rituals, self righteousness, legalism, etc.
In Christ Jesus period. THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Because she repented.


Now I will ask you a question.


Why do you think Jesus said to this same woman "Go and sin no more"?


She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:11




JPT
No record oh her repenting.
Furthermore Jesus could not condemn her because there were no witnesses which was required under the law and neither was the man bought to Jesus either which would have been required.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Because she repented.


Now I will ask you a question.


Why do you think Jesus said to this same woman "Go and sin no more"?


She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. John 8:11




JPT
With regards to your second question. He wasn't talking about sinless perfection. He obviously knew she was guilty otherwise he would not have told her go sin no more.

He was telling her to stop committing adultery.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
"OSAS, "FAITH ALONE",TITHINGS OF CHRISTIANS, PROSPERITY GOSPEL ARE FALSE DOCTRINES

Matthew 19 : 16-17
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Romans 6 : 16
16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

THE VERSES ABOVE CLEARLY SHOW THAT OBEDIENCE IS REQUIRED TO GET ETERNAL LIFE.

ACCORDING TO PAUL, OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. (Romans 6:16-22)

Matthew 13 : 22
22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

THE RICH MAN WALKED AWAY SAD AFTER RECEIVING INSTRUCTIONS FROM OUR LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE CANNOT WALK AWAY FROM HIS OTHER MASTER WHICH IS HIS WEALTH.

Matthew 6 : 24
24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

THE RICH MAN JUST LIKE JUDAS RECEIVED THE WORD (THE SEED) AND BELIEVED (HAD FAITH) IN JESUS BUT THEY WERE DECEIVED BECAUSE OF THEIR LOVE FOR MONEY (WEALTH). THEY WERE LIKE THOSE WHO RECEIVED THE SEED THAT FELL AMONG THE THORNS.

1 Timothy 6 : 9-10
9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

THESE TWO SITUATIONS DO SHOW H
OW THE CHRISTIANS IN THIS AGE OR GENERATION WILL WALK AWAY AND BETRAY OUR LORD JESUS.

Luke 12 : 15
15 Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Hebrews 13 : 5
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

1 Corinthians 5 : 11
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

WHO THEN INTRODUCED THE COLLECTION AND GIVING OF TITHES?

AREN'T THEY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO TAUGHT FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINES SUCH AS "OSAS" AND "FAITH ALONE SAVES"?

Matthew 7 : 15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 24 : 10-13
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

GREED IS SELFISHNESS BUT THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS "SELFLESS LOVE".

NO GREEDY PERSON SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
With regards to your second question. He wasn't talking about sinless perfection. He obviously knew she was guilty otherwise he would not have told her go sin no more.

He was telling her to stop committing adultery.

yup
(y)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
I did not see that HE forsook the faith. He forsook Paul, NOT THE SAME AS FORSAKING THE FAITH. Yes he could have made a better Choice. I suppose he could have love the world more than Jesus, but they do not give us enough information to know that. So I have to assume HE FORSOOK Paul, because it was the Mission field he was forsaken.
Without a doubt, Demas forsook Paul.

If a missionary comes home from the Mission Field early, Yes He could be valuable to train other missionaries, or adult Sunday School in his local Church. So God can use him in either place.
The Bible says Demas forsook Paul "having loved this present world". There is no hint that he went home to train other missionaries or teach Sunday School.

I think your understanding of Rom 5:5 is flawed. It is not saying that the love for God is forced upon us, and that we will absolutely always love God because we become born again.
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
18,010
113
No record oh her repenting.
Furthermore Jesus could not condemn her because there were no witnesses which was required under the law and neither was the man bought to Jesus either which would have been required.
Yep, i never read she showed any remorse or said she was sorry or even changed her mind,
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
18,010
113
Without a doubt, Demas forsook Paul.


The Bible says Demas forsook Paul "having loved this present world". There is no hint that he went home to train other missionaries or teach Sunday School.

I think your understanding of Rom 5:5 is flawed. It is not saying that the love for God is forced upon us, and that we will absolutely always love God because we become born again.
Which type of love would you be referring to? Peter could not actually tell jesus he loved (agape) him when jesus asked, does it have to be agape love for us to be children?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
Which type of love would you be referring to?
"Love" in Rom 5:5 is agape. Agape is not based on feelings, but commitment.

Peter could not actually tell jesus he loved (agape) him when jesus asked, does it have to be agape love for us to be children?
No. The Pharisees had agape love for the praise of men (John 12:43).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Yep, i never read she showed any remorse or said she was sorry or even changed her mind,
If she had repented why would Jesus tell her to stop doing?
There would be no need to do so.

After all she wasn't standing in front of Jesus by choice either.
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
18,010
113
"Love" in Rom 5:5 is agape. Agape is not based on feelings, but commitment.


No. The Pharisees had agape love for the praise of men (John 12:43).
Agape is sacrificial love, peter could only tell jesus he had phileo (brotherly love) love, yet jesus said go feed his sheep. So i agree, agape is not required, in fact, i think it takes alot to find true agape love. The pharisee had love of self, amen.