Not By Works

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Oct 31, 2015
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yeah

those who have no root

no new heart < not born again

You don’t even understand the simple fact that the reason these in this second group were being persecuted is because they were in fact believers.


  • he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


These in this group did believe, and received it with the joy of salvation, and went around witnessing and were eventually persecuted by unbelieving Jews in an attempt to cause them to return to Judaism.

The fell away, which means they stumbled and turned away from Christ.

They returned to unbelief.


JPT
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
They believed.

Jesus said the condition for being saved is to believe.

These in this group did in fact believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

lol

how many times have you ignored the fact there is a huge difference between mental acceptance through choice <-

and the indwelling belief which endures <- response to being shown truth backed up by proof


if two men will wrestle
i may believe that either would win based on information i have already recieved
and up until the match
my belief can change without any reason other than doubt or suggestion

^
flimsy belief
no trust
no confidence


but i can also believe fire is hot....
and this is not something i can doubt

this is not something i can choose to "change my mind" about


i can TRUST fire is hot
i have CONFIDENCE fire is hot

and i couldnt change my mind even if i wanted


you may think just understanding in your head "ya ok there probably is a God and my family believes in Jesus i guess ill go to church too... He is probably God"

then later in life

this same person may say "no i lost my faith in Jesus... now i believe in allah"

but the bible says THIS person was NEVER of us


no matter how much you fight the scriptures
they speak for themself
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
4102. pistis
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness​
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.​
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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Jude 1:5-19 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE. In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them. Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "IN THE LAST TIMES there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

James 2 : 26
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Matthew 24:10-13 AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

Romans 15:4 FOR EVERYTHING THAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE PAST WAS WRITTEN TO TEACH US, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures WE MIGHT HAVE HOPE.


6LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
i think something you fail to realize

is the relationship God has with His children, Gods gifts are without repentance and the fact those who are made new and born again are not only have a quickened spirit < made alive
and a new heart < desire for righteousnes

but also recieve the Holy spirit <- testifies of the truth within us

on top of that

we as His now saved children recieve blessings
encouragement
and chastening


God working in someone does not lead to unbelief


yes many are called
and few are chosen


but if youre called (the seed has been planted)


you are not chosen unless you are born again (by grace through faith)


i dont believe this includes a dead faith, the faith of demons, or a faith without trust, or confidence in Him


it includes those who TRUELY BELIEVE Jesus Christ is their lord and savior BY His call
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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They believed.

Jesus said the condition for being saved is to believe.

These in this group did in fact believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12
  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
They believed... for a while.

The ones on the road did not believe, however that’s not the case with these.

If there is more to being saved than believing, then please explain what that would be.
JPT
Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil,who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED? :unsure:
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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A WORTHY SERVANT


“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"


Matthew 10:37-39 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who DOES NOT take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.


Philippians 1:27-28 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.


Colossians 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,


Thessalonians 2:12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.


Thessalonians 1:5-6,8,11 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you HE WILL PUNISH those who do not know God and DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you WORTHY OF HIS CALLING, and that by HIS POWER he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.


Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


Revelation 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY ARE WORTHY.


ARE YOU “WORTHY” OF SALVATION BY CLAIMING TO HAVE A FAITH “ALONE”? ONE THAT IS VOID OF WORKS OR WHICH IS A “DEAD FAITH” ACCDG. TO JAMES.


Matthew 25:20-21,24-30 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you ENTRUSTED me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ “


Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ “His master replied, ‘YOU WICKED, LAZY SERVANT! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that WORTHLESS SERVANT outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Philippians 1:27-30 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by SETTING FORTH THE TRUTH PLAINLY we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

2 Timothy 3:12-17 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

1 Corinthians 4:4-7 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

1 Peter 2:1-12 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Romans 16:17-20 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
 

Dem

Member
Mar 7, 2018
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Salvation is free no works there but discipleship will cost you. If you love Him you will be compelled to do good works for Him.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
Salvation is free no works there but discipleship will cost you. If you love Him you will be compelled to do good works for Him.
good works? eew, gross, yuck, bleck, and ...

... ok, enough
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 FOR THÈY LOVED THE PRAISE OF MEN MORE THAN THE PRAISE OF GOD.

44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Somebody said that they thought the fact that the Persecuted Christians, meant they were ALL SAVED; even though some of them when out from us.

NOT NECESSARILY, because the Terrorist with a knife at the throat of a person claiming to be a Christian, is NOT GOING TO CARE IF HE IS IS ACTUALLY BORN AGAIN, or just pretending, or even does not even know you NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN, to be a REAL CHRISTIAN by Biblical Standards.

Here is an excellent example:

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Every One of these were shut out, because the NEVER HAD A INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE, RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS as LORD of their Lives; despite the fact they thought they were a REAL CHRISTIAN.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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lol

how many times have you ignored the fact there is a huge difference between mental acceptance through choice <-

and the indwelling belief which endures <- response to being shown truth backed up by proof


if two men will wrestle
i may believe that either would win based on information i have already recieved
and up until the match
my belief can change without any reason other than doubt or suggestion

^
flimsy belief
no trust
no confidence


but i can also believe fire is hot....
and this is not something i can doubt

this is not something i can choose to "change my mind" about


i can TRUST fire is hot
i have CONFIDENCE fire is hot

and i couldnt change my mind even if i wanted


you may think just understanding in your head "ya ok there probably is a God and my family believes in Jesus i guess ill go to church too... He is probably God"

then later in life

this same person may say "no i lost my faith in Jesus... now i believe in allah"

but the bible says THIS person was NEVER of us


no matter how much you fight the scriptures
they speak for themself
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Jesus did not mention that they had some “mental” believing.

He said they believed.

They were persecuted because they were BELIEVERS.

Rather than twisting and redefining what Jesus said, why not just read what He so plainly said.
Somebody said that they thought the fact that the Persecuted Christians, meant they were ALL SAVED; even though some of them when out from us.

NOT NECESSARILY, because the Terrorist with a knife at the throat of a person claiming to be a Christian, is NOT GOING TO CARE IF HE IS IS ACTUALLY BORN AGAIN, or just pretending, or even does not even know you NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN, to be a REAL CHRISTIAN by Biblical Standards.

Here is an excellent example:

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Every One of these were shut out, because the NEVER HAD A INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE, RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS as LORD of their Lives; despite the fact they thought they were a REAL CHRISTIAN.

Since Jesus is the One who qualified that they believed, and were being persecuted because they did in fact believe, then you “explanation” is moot.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


JPT
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

(Ref: romans 12:1-8)


16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.


EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.


CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18


IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.


21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.


30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,645
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Jesus did not mention that they had some “mental” believing.

He said they believed.

They were persecuted because they were BELIEVERS.

Rather than twisting and redefining what Jesus said, why not just read what He so plainly said.

Since Jesus is the One who qualified that they believed, and were being persecuted because they did in fact believe, then you “explanation” is moot.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
I see that you completely ignored post #67886. :(

It's interesting to see how people who are quick to point out "faith without works is dead" in James chapter 2 suddenly disregard that in the parable of the sower. Double standard? :unsure:

Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "pisteuo" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. Again, there is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation," as I already explained in my previous post. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

*Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Never was.

In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,450
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113
Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil,who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED? :unsure:

I agree, the Parable of the Sower, is about 1 who is a true believer, and 3 types of soil, that represent Unsaved, non-Born Again, that the best of them NEVER believed in their hearts, and only in their human brain that lies between their ears.

They are of these types of soil:


Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day
many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ 🖜 { NOTE: They think they are Christians, but Christ Himself refutes that CLAIM below.}
23 Then I will announce to them,I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’



That is a reference to the Inner, Personal, LOVE, Relationship with JESUS CHRIST, that we know as BORN AGAIN.
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
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im reading a great book right now called " Clash of the Covenants "
I seriously think alot of people posting on this thread should read it :)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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im reading a great book right now called " Clash of the Covenants "
I seriously think alot of people posting on this thread should read it :)

I do not see a CLASH of the Covenants, just a misunderstanding.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


That verse tells me that GOD's LOVE, MERCY, GRACE, and THE PLAN OF SALVATION, has always been the SAME.

You doubt that, then you are one of them that has MISUNDERSTOOD THE OLD COVENANT. They were NEVER SAVED BY THE LAW, but the purpose of the LAW has ALWAYS been to drive the Old Testament Assembly to their Knees, seeking a MESSIAH to SAVE THEM, just as it does for us.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.


Abraham Believed GOD would Send a Messiah.

We Believe GOD did Send a Messiah.


IT IS THE SAME FAITH THAT SAVED BOTH.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


Old Testament Saints are those who BELIEVED GOD would send a MESSIAH. And some of you thought they were Saved by Keeping the LAW.

I repeat:


Romans 3:20 (NRSV)
20 For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Please copy and paste from my post what points and verse you disagree with, so we can discuss.


WE all have opinions, so by you just stating your opinion with no scriptures, makes no sense.


A sheep who wanders away from Him, because they stopped hearing and obeying His voice, will become lost.


Jesus taught this very plainly.

I know you have heard of the prodigal son and the parable of the lost sheep.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

  • likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
    than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


The same language is used to describe the prodigal son.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’
Luke 15:32


  • How do you define “lost”?



JPT
A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......there are NO verses in context that teaches a man can lose or forfeit salvation.....!!!!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,450
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I see that you completely ignored post #67886. :(

It's interesting to see how people who are quick to point out "faith without works is dead" in James chapter 2 suddenly disregard that in the parable of the sower. Double standard? :unsure:

Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "pisteuo" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. Again, there is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation," as I already explained in my previous post. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

*Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Never was.

In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
AMEN, it surely is a double standard. And the Fruit does not pop out as soon as a sprout comes out of that soil, so we have to watch for a while, until it matures, and the one will GOOD SOIL, WILL BEAR FRUIT. The ones will rocks and weeds that choke, will not last until they Bear Fruit.