Not By Works

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ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
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I do not see a CLASH of the Covenants, just a misunderstanding.


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


That verse tells me that GOD's LOVE, MERCY, GRACE, and THE PLAN OF SALVATION, has always been the SAME.

You doubt that, then you are one of them that has MISUNDERSTOOD THE OLD COVENANT. They were NEVER SAVED BY THE LAW, but the purpose of the LAW has ALWAYS been to drive the Old Testament Assembly to their Knees, seeking a MESSIAH to SAVE THEM, just as it does for us.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.


Abraham Believed GOD would Send a Messiah.

We Believe GOD did Send a Messiah.


IT IS THE SAME FAITH THAT SAVED BOTH.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


Old Testament Saints are those who BELIEVED GOD would send a MESSIAH. And some of you thought they were Saved by Keeping the LAW.

I repeat:


Romans 3:20 (NRSV)
20 For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

I havent misunderstood anything , and
I agree Gods plan of salvation has always been thru belief !!


But there is a difference in Jesus's earthly ministry , and the new covenant

( you should still check out the book , none of us are too knowledgeable that we cant learn )
 

Dem

Member
Mar 7, 2018
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A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......there are NO verses in context that teaches a man can lose or forfeit salvation.....!!!!
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

once saved always saved is a false doctrine sending many to hell.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,251
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Life is crap, experience of our life is crap.

Crap shapes our lives and that crap affects our life with and walk with God.

Crap doesn't just happen now but may have done from the womb and in our early years.

It carries over, belivers bring baggage over that they know of, then God reveals baggage that they did not know.

It's hard folks, really hard so so hard.

Even positive thoughts and memories can be exposed as false memories.
The mind can block the negative.

Where is the compassion and love, where is the understanding where a person is at?

Does saying Bible says now go do work?
Is that walking with wounded hurting people?

People who struggle.

Walk with or dictate to?

Which is best?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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Jews as Well as Gentiles
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11for there is no respect of persons with God.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

16They profess that they know God; but IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.

14Wherefore he saith, awake thou that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.

11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to AWAKE out of sleep: for NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THÀN WHEN WE (FIRST) BELIEVED.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

...because THEY HAVE CAST AWAY THE LAW OF THE LORD of hosts, and DESPISED THE WORD of the Holy One of Israel. (isaiah 5:20-24)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,251
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2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

once saved always saved is a false doctrine sending many to hell.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Define the false doctrine of OSAS is the doctrine that sends many to hell?

And when doing so then post any quote from anyone on this thread who has posted anything that relates to this false doctrine.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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AMEN, it surely is a double standard. And the Fruit does not pop out as soon as a sprout comes out of that soil, so we have to watch for a while, until it matures, and the one will GOOD SOIL, WILL BEAR FRUIT. The ones will rocks and weeds that choke, will not last until they Bear Fruit.
Amen! Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer bore the fruit of salvation.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......there are NO verses in context that teaches a man can lose or forfeit salvation.....!!!!
OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)

SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)

OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.

THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.

JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)

WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?

WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)

IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?

JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?

GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)

NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?

Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.

ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?

DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..
"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,251
3,991
113
Amen! Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer bore the fruit of salvation.
Matthew 13:1-8

The Parable of the Sower
(Mark 4:1–9; Luke 8:4–8)
1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The wayside not saved, no root.
The stony ones no root.
The thorns no root.

None of the above indicate genuine faith, being in the vine.

As for the good ground.

They yielded a crop.
They can only do so because they are in the vine.
Yet Jesus says the crop yielded is varying.

But the fact is that a crop can only be yeilded if it has a root.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......THERE ARE NO VERSES IN CONTEXT THAT TEACHES THAT A MAN CAN LOSE OR FORFEIT SALVATION.....!!!!
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

(Ref: romans 12:1-8)


16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.


EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.


CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18


IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.


21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.


30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
 
Jul 26, 2018
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Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18),not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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IF YOU ARE A JEW WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW IT IS "NOT BY WORKS".(ephesians 2:8-deuteronomy 6:24-25)



WHETHER YOU'RE A GENTILE OR A JEW, IF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH FAITH , YOU ARE;

...God's workmanship created in
Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which He has PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO . ( ephesians 2:10)

James 2 : 26
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Click to expand...

AND HOW DO WE KNOW WHO ARE THE LIARS AND DECEIVERS?? ? ??? ??

1 John 2 : 3-5
3 We know that we have come to know him IF WE. OBEY HIS COMMANDS
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

2 John 1 : 6-11
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
9ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD AND DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God: whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.
11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.


John 8 : 43-47
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47 HE WHO BELONGS TO GOD HEARS WHAT GOD SAY. The reason you do not hear is that you don't belong to God."

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 7 : 18
18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
 
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13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

(Ref: romans 12:1-8)


16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.


EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.


CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18


IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.


21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.


30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not.
Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. ⏪⏪And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure...
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

(Ref: romans 12:1-8)


16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.


EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.


CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18


IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.


21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.


30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)


6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
Behold, What manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not.
Beloved, NOW we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1John3:1-3
Ps 91:1, 14-16 He that DWELLS in the secret place of the most high shall ABIDE (meno) under the shadow of the almighty.
BECAUSE he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
He shall call upon me and I shall answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him.
With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.
 
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Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

once saved always saved is a false doctrine sending many to hell.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Hahahhaha yeah sure....keep believing you can lose it...proves you never had to to begin with.....It is a shame you have no understanding of the truth nor the definitions God inspired....! And the truth...all who believe it can be lost have not trusted into the saving faith of Christ and you have tossed Jesus and his work, power, promises in the trash can of religious ignorance...!
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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A sheep that wanders ia still a sheep and no where does scripture say arw turned backninto a goat...that view is idiotic...and the Prodigal was a son throughout the whole process and onle perceived as dead by his actions, yet was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process....

Define the following words applied to salvation

irrevocable gift
eternal life
everlasting life
saved to the uttermost
kept by the power of God

Your false dogma denies, rejects and sweeps under the table the above FACTS......there are NO verses in context that teaches a man can lose or forfeit salvation.....!!!!

d...,
None of the above is biblical.
Further, you spin...."irrevocable gift"...where did that come from in scripture? It is not a fact. Please show reference.
Why do you ignore scriptures to make such ill reputed statements against G-d's word?

You constantly speak of..."dogma"...well this whole post fits that image....+...bovine residue.

Anyone can lose their eligibility for eternal salvation. ...just ..."do not maintain"...it is gone.
If you don't know the scriptures ...let me know I will list them for you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
<><.🕆.><>

You see that CREATES a contradiction, if you take the verse LITERALLY:

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 3:20 (NRSV)
20 For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:22-24 (NRSV)
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;
24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 3:4-7 (NRSV)
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Because of that, Martin Luther wanted to THROW the Book of James OUT of the Canon. But someone convinced him that JAMES WAS ONLY SAYING, if you DOUBT my FAITH, look at the fruit it produced in me. IT IS NOT SALVATION that he is talking about, he want to point out the CHANGE IN HIM, is the PROOF THAT HE WAS SAVED by GRACE through Faith and NOTHING ELSE.

He is a Parallel Verse that makes it much more understanable. It is NOT PART OF SALVATION, but rather IT IS PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM and OTHERS.


1 John 3:14-19 (NRSV)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death.
15 All who hate a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.
16 We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us—and we ought to lay down our lives for one another.
17 How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help?
18 Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action.
19 And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him



IT IS PART OF LOVE, and IT IS GOD's LOVE in our hearts, so WE DO NOT GET TO CLAIM CREDIT FOR IT.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Genuine SALVATION will produce Loving Obedience, AFTER YOU ARE ALREADY GENUINELY SAVED. Therefore it is GOD's LOVE in us that CAN get us to LOVE LIKE THAT.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
No matter how many times James get yanked out of context to peddle a working for salvation like a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta it will NEVER EQUATE to a works based salvation....

Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law.....

wake up pal...works don't save, keep saved, embellish salvation and or top off salvation and ALL who peddle it are peddling a false dogma with NO POWER TO SAVE.....!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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d...,
None of the above is biblical.
Further, you spin...."irrevocable gift"...where did that come from in scripture? It is not a fact. Please show reference.
Why do you ignore scriptures to make such ill reputed statements against G-d's word?

You constantly speak of..."dogma"...well this whole post fits that image....+...bovine residue.

Anyone can lose their eligibility for eternal salvation. ...just ..."do not maintain"...it is gone.
If you don't know the scriptures ...let me know I will list them for you.
Everything I said was biblical regardless of your inability to get past your own false religion....study the bible and maybe you will get some understanding, but first you must lose the false religion...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These workss done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation.

If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:4-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

In Romans 2:13, Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to keep a perfect standard. *They were hypocrites. *This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law. *No one is able to keep a perfect standard of the Law. *If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of it all.

James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The Jews (and anyone else) can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. *A person can’t fail even once--ever. *But all have failed (Romans 3:23; 6:23), that is why we must be justified before God by faith (Romans 3:24-28, 4:2-6; 5:1).