Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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BINGO! Yet in Mark 16:16(b) it clearly says whoever does not believe will be condemned. Also, John 3:18 says he who does not believe is condemned already.. Yet NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." That would be strange if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation. :unsure:

No, it says he who believe and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized). It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, but if no water is available (particularly due to a death bed conversion) you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..

Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” in Mark 16:16. So once again, if water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics .

What did I distort? If I am not at least somewhat knowledgeable and articulate by now, then I'm in trouble. I've had these types of debates on multiple Christian forums since 2011.

So you believe that salvation is a process of faith + further elements of accomplishments? Works?

Believers are ALL in, in regards to trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

So believing in Jesus is not enough and remaining elements must be accomplished and added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save us? That is basically what it comes down to, using your logic.
It is really not nice to use only part of my post. I do not appreciate your tactic.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It is really not nice to use only part of my post. I do not appreciate your tactic.
What tactic? You said, "belief is the number 1 way to be saved...the most important part of the saving process...that has to be the number 1 reason for salvation. I maintain that when Jesus uses the word 'believe', he is thinking that a person is all in. And that person would then be expected to do all the remaining elements of salvation."

How many possible ways can you interpret that? :unsure: I am seriously considering what you are saying.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
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We should not assume that belief alone is the main requirement for salvation. In Mark 16 the context is Christ' crucifixion, resurrection, and appearance afterwards.

The word 'believe' actually sums it up well. It means to think to be true, to be persuaded, to place confidence in. Belief is intellectual faith, and the evidence of that should be living faith which translates to saving faith.

To say, "all you have to do to be saved is to believe' should come with a caveat. Vines words it this way,
"to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Thank you for answering my question, but can you see how what you said demonstrates that you believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, yet you are also trusting in "your accomplishments" as the means of your salvation?

In Matthew 7:22, we read - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?

My answer would be - "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless perfect life, pay for my sins in full on the cross and rise again from the dead on the third day. *I am trusting exclusively in YOU as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation." Praise God! :)
I know you feel comfortable with your answer. I feel comfortable with mine also. As long as the HS is my guide, my accomplishments will be seen as following the prompting of the HS and will be proven to be in the name of the Lord and what the Lord created for me to do.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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What tactic? You said, "belief is the number 1 way to be saved...the most important part of the saving process...that has to be the number 1 reason for salvation. I maintain that when Jesus uses the word 'believe', he is thinking that a person is all in. And that person would then be expected to do all the remaining elements of salvation."

How many possible ways can you interpret that? :unsure: I am seriously considering what you are saying.
You left off part of my post for a purpose.
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
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ben says

" my accomplishments "

and that is the problem , your relying on your DOING rather than on what Christ has done
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,998
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We should not assume that belief alone is the main requirement for salvation. In Mark 16 the context is Christ' crucifixion, resurrection, and appearance afterwards.

The word 'believe' actually sums it up well. It means to think to be true, to be persuaded, to place confidence in. Belief is intellectual faith, and the evidence of that should be living faith which translates to saving faith.

To say, "all you have to do to be saved is to believe' should come with a caveat. Vines words it this way,
"to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence.
The word translated "believe" in the Greek lexicon of the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is defined as follows: #4100; pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent belief," as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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When the scripture describes in John 15:2 "branches IN HIM", I assume these branches are people that have been born again, and have had the baptism of the spirit and the baptism of water. They have faith in Jesus and are IN HIM so they are obeying his commandments. Therefore since the branches are IN HIM, even these branches are subject to losing their salvation if they do not produce fruit.

Couldn't be any clearer.



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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ben says

" my accomplishments "

and that is the problem , your relying on your DOING rather than on what Christ has done

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


We will be judged on that Day according to what we do.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:6-8



  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;



JPT
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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So can a person be saved without having patience?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)



OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:



Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.



THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.



JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)



WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?



WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)



IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?



JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.



Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.



Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?



GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )



Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.



2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)



NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?



Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.



ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?



DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?



Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.



James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
Isn't the faith renewing one's mind in the Holy Ghost always growing in the knowledge of the word of God that we resist not the Spirit of truth nor vex his holy Spirit?

So how does one shew their faith without works?
And if you could show your faith by your works then what works with they be?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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DID JESUS STOP WORKING AFTER HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS (CHRIST’S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS)?


WHAT WORK WAS FINISHED ON THE CROSS?


DID CHRIST FINISH HIS WORKS OF SALVATION BY DYING ON THE CROSS?


John 5:17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”


...the reason the son of man appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 john 3:8)




John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


Luke 24:44-49 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”




IS SALVATION “VOID OF WORKS” OR “ NOT BY WORKS (OF OURSELVES)?


ARE SERVANTS CONSIDERED WORKERS?


ARE PREACHERS,TEACHERS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, MINISTERS, ADMINISTRATORS ETC. CONSIDERED SERVANTS AND WORKERS OF GOD?

WHAT IF THEY ONLY HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS, THEN LOOK DOWN ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY IN HYPOCRISY AS IF THEY'RE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PART OF IT? WILL THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?( 1 corinthians chapter 12)


WE ARE GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS(1 cor 3:9)

SENT OUT TO HARVEST WHAT WE HAVE NOT WORKED FOR...THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE.


Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. EVEN NOW the reaper draws his wages, EVEN NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ I SENT YOU TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”


ARE THERE WORKS NEEDED TO BE DONE FOR SALVATION?


WE ARE TO SERVE IN THE WORKS OF THE GOSPEL WHICH IS THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.


1 Thessalonians 3:2,5 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and GOD’S FELLOW WORKER in SPREADING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been USELESS.


Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL.


Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, “WE” MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


BUT WE ARE NOT WORKING FOR OUR OWN SALVATION BUT FOR THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHOM HE IS THE SAVIOR (eph 5:23),

WHERE HE PUTS THOSE THAT ARE BEING SAVED AND ARE MADE PARTS OF HIS BODY FOR WORKS OF SERVICE.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Romans 12:4-8 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.


1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS SELFLESS LOVE.


GOD GAVE US HIS ONLY SON.

JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US.

WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR OUR BROTHERS.


1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.


Philippians 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your OWN INTERESTS, but also to the interests of OTHERS.


Philippians 2:21 For everyone looks out for HIS OWN INTERESTS, not those of Jesus Christ.


Colossians 3:12-17 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Galatians 6:2,10 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Matthew 16:24-28 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, HE MUST DENY HIMSELFand take up his cross and follow me. For WHOEVER WANTS TO SAVE HIS LIFE WILL LOSE IT, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


2 Timothy 2:14-19 A Workman Approved by God Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against QUARRELING ABOUT WORDS; it is of no value, and ONLY RUINS THOSE WHO LISTEN. Do your best to present yourself to God as one APPROVED, a WORKMAN who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because THOSE WHO INDULGE IN IT WILL BECOME MORE AND MORE UNGODLY. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have WANDERED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and THEY DESTROY THE FAITH OF SOME. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST TURN AWAY FROM WICKEDNESS.”
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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121
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ben says

" my accomplishments "

and that is the problem , your relying on your DOING rather than on what Christ has done
If you read it closely, I am relying on the Holy Spirit to guide me. If I accomplish anything, it is because I listened to the HS and did what God created me to do.

You are way to hung up on the idea that somebody can accomplish something. If I listen to the HS and accomplish a task that the Lord has set before me, I am happy, heaven is happy and all is good, right? If I did not listen and did not accomplish the task the Lord set before me, I lose, heaven loses and all is not well. Repentance is needed, priorities reestablished and forgiveness is asked for a given, and we move forward.

I do not gloat over my accomplishments, nor am I prideful, but I am happy to be in the service of Jesus. He does need humans to accomplish things on this earth. He cannot be here 100% of the time at the time, so he needs help to take care of his sheep and administer his church etc.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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ben says

" my accomplishments "

and that is the problem , your relying on your DOING rather than on what Christ has done
I am relying on what Christ has done and will do, but I also am relying on what the HS tells me to do so that I am doing that which Jesus created for me to do. One without the other is death.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
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BINGO! Yet in Mark 16:16(b) it clearly says whoever does not believe will be condemned. Also, John 3:18 says he who does not believe is condemned already.. Yet NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." That would be strange if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.:unsure:....
m..,
You make absolutely no common sense here,
Are you saying that it is necessary.......but, not aboslutely necessary? What purpose is absolutely serving in that conclusion? It sounds a little like ...a little bit pregnant.

Water baptism is absolutely required for sin cleansing in the repentance process. The Bible says so.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You are reading the scripture wrong: those taken away are not the Non-Born Again, but they are the Born Again that are taken away. How do we know this, because those taken away are those branches that are IN JESUS. Those IN JESUS can not be
Non-Born Again.

Therefore we must conclude that those branches that are taken away are Born Again Christians that did not bear fruit and so were taken away. And you can equate these same people that are IN JESUS but produced no fruit with a bad tree that produces no fruit or it produces bad fruit. We know what happens to those trees.

You interpret this scipture wrong because you are OSAS and so the branches that produce no fruit have to be Non-Born Again branches vs those that produce fruit which are Born Again branches. But this is not what the scirpture says. It says those branches that are IN JESUS (Born Again persons) who produce no fruit will be taken away. Read it right and you will agree with me. But if you agree with me you have to give up your OSAS doctrine.

NO, I believe what the BIBLE SAYS, and you believe something else taught be a False Teacher.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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What false prophet? Are you talking about John the beloved apostles of Jesus Christ? He is the one that recorded John 15:2 from the mouth of Jesus. Are you calling Jesus a false prophet? Careful now.
Are you saying you don't even go to church ? ? ?

You have proven yourself to be quite an easy pray for a False Teacher.

Matthew 7:15-20 (CSBBible)
15 "Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. {
20 So you'll recognize them by their fruit.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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Are you saying you don't even go to church ? ? ?

You have proven yourself to be quite an easy pray for a False Teacher.

Matthew 7:15-20 (CSBBible)
15 "Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. {
20 So you'll recognize them by their fruit.
So can a sapros tree produce ponerous fruit?