Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Here is the revelant scripture. Note the ones objecting were saying works not grace.

Matthew 7

NIV
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

AMPC
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [p]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great and complete was the fall of it.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
"put into practice these words" is striking.

here is a list of the imperative sayings in Matthew 7 leading up to verse 21:

  • do not judge ((v.1))
  • take the plank out of your own eye ((v.5))
  • ask.. seek.. knock ((v.7))
  • in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you ((v.12))
  • enter through the narrow gate ((v.13))
  • watch out for false prophets ((v.15))
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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ask the Spirit that wrote the Book and deemed it best to describe them as "believers"

God said they were believing. given the context this word 'believing' has a clear and specific connotation: they believe Christ, who He is and what He did.
if you think God got it wrong, He is the one you need to have a conversation with about this.

in fact..

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

you guys who say that 'believing Gentiles' must be commanded to keep the Law, y'all better hope you believe in the same God, otherwise this scripture right here condemns you, doesn't it?

I have no doubt they "believed in the Christ". So does the Pope. So did those who called Jesus Lord, Lord, in Matt. 7. But you rejecting the rest of the Bible, and preaching that Peter taught against God's Commandments using one sentence here, and one there, as you also do to my posts, is not an honest way to deal with people or with the Holy God.

The scriptures says these "believing Pharisees" were trying to place the same "Yoke" on the necks of the disciples that their fathers couldn't bear.

What did the Messiah say this "Yoke" was?

The Messiah Himself said of them.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God as you preach) bind heavy burdens (Yoke) and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders (Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

This "Yoke" had burdened the Pharisees and those who followed them for a long time.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

According to the Bible is was not the Law of Moses that the Pharisees burdened the Fathers with, even though they claimed it was. And the Messiah said they; "teach for doctrines the commandments of men".

So whether it's those who "believe" as those who called Him Lord, Lord, in Matt. 7, or the "believing Pharisees" who were trying to place the same "YOKE" that the fathers couldn't bear as did the Pharisees which didn't "believe". Either way, they were rejected because they didn't follow the "law of Moses" even though they claimed that they were.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

So Peter rebuked them to their face, and directed the gentiles to the true Law of Moses, and to the reading of the Law and Prophets on God's Holy Sabbath.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (All, not from the Jews religious traditions, but from the true Law of Moses, it's in your Bible)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Your preaching that Peter rejected the Law of Moses, then sent the Gentiles learn from the Law of Moses, is a perfect example of what happened to the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, (Like teaching that His Laws are against us as did the serpent to Eve) neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I understand you can not hear this.

Luke 16:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But there are others following this thread.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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All is well, I hold no ill will. I do want to say that I think that I do firmly stand in a position that promotes obedience to the Messiah, people may or may not agree with my view of how that is done, but however one views obedience I say the Messiah;s way is the path we should walk. And no I am not perfect, but I want to do His will.
I belong to no church, denomanation or any brand of religion, I seek to follow YHWH by prayer and diligently studying His word and I fellowship with those that also seek Yah. I dont mean to use uncommon terminology but I, in my own journeey have leraned much, and my entore life I was told common christian doctrine and did not know the Scriptures to know if it was true or not, after years of study I realized much of what I had been told is not Scriptual. I will use 2 examples. 1 I was told "God only accepts blind faith" after studying the word YHWH says to search His word, that He shows great signs and wonders, test the spirits, etc all to confirm our belief. 2. I was told "the Law is done away" Yet the Messiah says "unless heaven and earth pass the Law will not pass"

I believe He is going to return and gather His elect post-tribulation because this:

Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

The timing of this is the 7th trumpet:

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”


after this trumpet begins "the day of YHWH" or the wrath of YHWH, the vials of Revelation:

Revelation 15:1-8, “And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous: seven messengers having the seven last plagues, for the wrath of יהוה was ended in them. And I saw like a sea of glass mixed with fire,..the seven messengers having the seven plagues, dressed in clean bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven messengers seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of יהוה who lives forever and ever. And the Dwelling Place was filled with smoke from the esteem of יהוה and from His power, and no one was able to enter the Dwelling Place until the seven plagues of the seven messengers were ended.”






I get that but in our language it is different:

covenant
noun cov·e·nant \ ˈkəv-nənt , ˈkə-və- \


Definition of covenant
1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement : compact


… international law, which depends upon the sanctity of covenants between rulers. —George H. Sabine

2 a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action

the deed conveying the land contained restrictive covenants

b : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract
— covenantal play \ˌkə-və-ˈnan-tᵊl\ adjective



testament
noun tes·ta·ment \ ˈte-stə-mənt \


1 a : a tangible proof or tribute
b : an expression of conviction : creed
2 a : an act by which a person determines the disposition of his or her property after death
b : will
3 a capitalized : either of two main divisions of the Bible
b archaic : a covenant between God and the human race


This is COVENANT in Hebrew

- Original: בּרית
- Transliteration: Beriyth
- Phonetic: ber-eeth'
- Definition:
1. covenant, alliance, pledge
a. between men
1. treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
2. constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
3. agreement, pledge (man to man)
4. alliance (of friendship)
5. alliance (of marriage)
b. between God and man
1. alliance (of friendship)
2. covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2. (phrases)
a. covenant making
b. covenant keeping
c. covenant violation
- Origin: from H1262 * (in the sense of cutting [like H1254 *])
- TWOT entry: 282a
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine


it may seem like a minor difference, and it;s nothing I would break fellowship over, but there is a difference, if we really look at the meanings of the words, a covenant is a binding agreement, wheere a testament is a will that takes effect after the death of the testor. I see how it can be easily used in plae of covenant but I do not think it is proper to the original language and meaning of the text. but in modern times has been used for so long it is commonly accepted. Again nothing I would break fellowship over, but in this medium we are here to talk Scripture!

I want to apologize once again, that I confused you with someone else. I am pretty sure who, now; but to be on the safe side, I will not name him.

You have just given more Proof, that as I have claimed NUMEROUS TIMES before, ENGLISH is an POOR LANGUAGE at best to translate the Bible into. I came to that conclusion, ever since I first learned that Greek has 6 Primary Verb Tenses, and English only has 3 Primary Verb Tenses. I am sure Hebrew has more than English has, too.

I want to ask you about paragraph two. That being said that you do not belong to any Church or Denomination, "How can you be OBEDIENT the "One Another's" in the Bible?" To me you have to attend a New Testament Assembly of Believers to be faithful to verses like this:


Hebrews 10:23-25 (NIV)
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But you rejecting the rest of the Bible, and preaching that Peter taught against God's Commandments using one sentence here, and one there, as you also do to my posts, is not an honest way to deal with people or with the Holy God.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
(Ephesians 4:31)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The scriptures says these "believing Pharisees" were trying to place the same "Yoke" on the necks of the disciples that their fathers couldn't bear.
does Acts 15:5 say "the Law of Moses" or does Acts 15:5 say "the traditions and commandments of men"

?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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I want to apologize once again, that I confused you with someone else. I am pretty sure who, now; but to be on the safe side, I will not name him.

You have just given more Proof, that as I have claimed NUMEROUS TIMES before, ENGLISH is an POOR LANGUAGE at best to translate the Bible into. I came to that conclusion, ever since I first learned that Greek has 6 Primary Verb Tenses, and English only has 3 Primary Verb Tenses. I am sure Hebrew has more than English has, too.


No worries, not only are we supposed to forgive but I honestly feel respect for anyone who approaches with honesty to ones words rather than manipulation of their words, praiseYah! He is our Strength! and I agree the more I learn about greek and hebrew the more I feel I want to read directly from it... It funny because even modern languages don;t have direct counterparts in eanglish and whatever language but we want there to be when translating from ancient language...

I want to ask you about paragraph two. That being said that you do not belong to any Church or Denomination, "How can you be OBEDIENT the "One Another's" in the Bible?" To me you have to attend a New Testament Assembly of Believers to be faithful to verses like this:
Hebrews 10:23-25 (NIV)
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Yes but "not give up meeting together" has nothing to do with a "church" building. Believers can meet in homes, coffe shops, parks, they can e-mail, text, talk and gather anytime anywhere to encourage, dwell on the word, to Yah's will, etc. So... the past 2 churches I have been to in the last 10 years both offered me a job, well paying even, even though I had differences in doctrine they said they liked my knowledge in the word and whatnot, however i don;t believe in joining earth based denomanations bottom line, fellowship is fine, but again not "official" building is needed as in reality there is no such thing as an "official" meeting place/building, it's tradition. There was Bayith YHWH (the Temple) but that is no more, and since then there is not a single verse that says we should worhip and gather at a certian place. I hope that explins it well.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Do you believe that God's searches the Heart for the MOTIVE why we do what we do?

I believe after we are SAVED the moment we first genuinely Believe, GOD has the HOLY SPIRIT pour His LOVE into our hearts, Rom 5:5.

It is that LOVE that will produce the desire to Obey Him. Therefore obedience is not part of SALVATION, it is Part of our LOVE.

lol, not many actually ask what it is that i believe but since you did i believe the same as you and all the others in that the law is put in our minds and written in our hearts just as all of you and i all speak and have said the same things for 3496 pages and seeing we all agree there is your proof...
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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(Jer 31:31 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"I will" is future tense. New Covenant means not the Old Covenant.

(Jer 31:32 KJV) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
It will NOT be according to the covenant made with the fathers.

(Jer 31:33) It will be written on their hearts and NOT on paper.
It will be written on their hearts and NOT on paper like the Old Covenant was.

This is according to the one who made it. Follow Him
You still refuse to accept how His people "received the Law" in the Old Covenant. The medium the Law was written on is not the issue here. It is how the Law is placed in our mind. That is what is new. There is no mention of a "New Law", only how His Law is placed in our mind.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

No longer do folks have only one way to "receive the Law" which was to go to the Levite and the Scribe, which as the Scriptures tell us, had corrupted His Laws, or any religious preacher, like the "Believing Pharisees" in acts 15.. The Messiah replaced the Old Priesthood with the New Priesthood in which He will place His Laws directly on our hearts. Not religious man's traditions and Doctrines, not new laws, but His Laws that were once written in Stone, are now placed on Fleshy tables of our hearts.

2 cor. 3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

No mention of different Laws, only how they are administered.

And how do we know we received His Laws from Him and not some religious tradition from other spirit?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You also refuse to accept how sin's were forgiven in the Old Covenant.

One had to take and animal to a Levite Priest, who then performed "works of the Law" for the justification of sins. Some Jews continue this practice to this very day. but in Paul's time, it was the practice of the Mainstream Preachers of the time.

They, like you, couldn't accept that the New Covenant was the Change in the Priesthood.

But Jesus was not a Levite, and the "Law of Moses" said these sin cleansing rituals could only be performed by Levites. So God's Law was changed by necessity so that the Perfect Man could become the High Priest.

Heb. 7:
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And what was this change? The elimination of the Law and Prophets? The destruction of His Sabbaths? The re-writing of His Commandments?

In your church and many others yes, this is exactly what you preach. But not the Word's of God.

Heb. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; (Not Levi) of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Before Jesus could become the High Priest, and take over the duties of the Priesthood, the Law stating the Tribe of Levi was the only bloodline that could be God's Priest's HAD to be changed. And it was.

No more Levite Priests just as He Promised.

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb. 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Priests of the Old Covenant) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


2 cor. 4:
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Starting with the Catholic church and adopted by all her protestant and non denominational daughters, religious man has taught that the Old Covenant and the Old Testament are the same thing. And that the Messiah came to eliminate the Law and Prophets. This is a great deceit. It actually started with the serpent and Eve.

But religious tradition is a powerful evil and if one doesn't "Believe" His actual Word's, then they reject the Armor God created to protect us from it.

At any rate, this stuff in written in your Bible, you just need to have Faith that they are true and religious man is not.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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why would God write this:

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the Law of Moses.”
(Acts 15:5)
if the truth is that they said "the gentiles must keep the traditions and commandments of men" ?

are you calling God a liar?

sorry dude. fact is that the scripture very clearly completely opposes your thinking here; you are misapplying things Christ said to non-believing pharisees.
suggest you look into "
metanoia" :)
You are completely ignoring the answer the Bible gives every time He gives it to you.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able

In your religion, this "Yoke" is God's Laws, you have made that clear. But according to the Righteous Word's of the Christ, this "Yoke" was the religious traditions of man that transgressed the Commandments of God.

Why were the "Believing Pharisees" trying to place the same deception and Traditions the Pharisees placed on the "Shoulders" of men for centuries.

Gen. 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

You have been convinced that you can't be in Error because you are already saved, all set, already immortal. So it doesn't matter what the Christ says, what Peter says, and God Almighty says. It can't be you who are mistaken.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, the Pharisees, were convinced of the same thing. They and their religious traditions were right, and it didn't matter what the Prophets said, what Moses said, what some ONE who came back from the Dead said. They would not hear.

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

What part of the "Law of Moses" would a Pharisee be pushing? Their Priesthood right? "Works of the Law" for the atonement or justification of sins. Tithes and other Priesthood duties.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Are you preaching Peter taught against these things? But the "believing Pharisees" taught in favor of these things?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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OUR LORD JESUS GAVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTO ALL NATIONS.


TO BAPTIZE AND TO TEACH OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. (matthew 28:18-20)


romans 10

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”


THOSE WHO DO NOT TEACH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDS WERE NOT SENT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL.


1 john 4

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

revelations 21
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.


For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF GOD?



He will punish those who do not know God and DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS.



"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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does Acts 15:5 say "the Law of Moses" or does Acts 15:5 say "the traditions and commandments of men"

?
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter was pretty much convinced that their version of the Law of Moses was the same version that plagued the "fathers" for centuries.

And the Messiah made it very clear that they taught a Law, they called it God's Law, but it was not.

Peter then led them away from their version of the Law of Moses, and directed them into the true Law of Moses.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (All parts of the Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What would they learn from Moses and the Prophets? The "Yoke" these religious men placed on the shoulders of men?

Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the LordAlmighty
and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
9,204
4,940
113
You still refuse to accept how His people "received the Law" in the Old Covenant. The medium the Law was written on is not the issue here. It is how the Law is placed in our mind. That is what is new. There is no mention of a "New Law", only how His Law is placed in our mind.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

No longer do folks have only one way to "receive the Law" which was to go to the Levite and the Scribe, which as the Scriptures tell us, had corrupted His Laws, or any religious preacher, like the "Believing Pharisees" in acts 15.. The Messiah replaced the Old Priesthood with the New Priesthood in which He will place His Laws directly on our hearts. Not religious man's traditions and Doctrines, not new laws, but His Laws that were once written in Stone, are now placed on Fleshy tables of our hearts.

2 cor. 3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

No mention of different Laws, only how they are administered.

And how do we know we received His Laws from Him and not some religious tradition from other spirit?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You also refuse to accept how sin's were forgiven in the Old Covenant.

One had to take and animal to a Levite Priest, who then performed "works of the Law" for the justification of sins. Some Jews continue this practice to this very day. but in Paul's time, it was the practice of the Mainstream Preachers of the time.

They, like you, couldn't accept that the New Covenant was the Change in the Priesthood.

But Jesus was not a Levite, and the "Law of Moses" said these sin cleansing rituals could only be performed by Levites. So God's Law was changed by necessity so that the Perfect Man could become the High Priest.

Heb. 7:
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And what was this change? The elimination of the Law and Prophets? The destruction of His Sabbaths? The re-writing of His Commandments?

In your church and many others yes, this is exactly what you preach. But not the Word's of God.

Heb. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; (Not Levi) of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Before Jesus could become the High Priest, and take over the duties of the Priesthood, the Law stating the Tribe of Levi was the only bloodline that could be God's Priest's HAD to be changed. And it was.

No more Levite Priests just as He Promised.

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb. 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Priests of the Old Covenant) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


2 cor. 4:
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Starting with the Catholic church and adopted by all her protestant and non denominational daughters, religious man has taught that the Old Covenant and the Old Testament are the same thing. And that the Messiah came to eliminate the Law and Prophets. This is a great deceit. It actually started with the serpent and Eve.

But religious tradition is a powerful evil and if one doesn't "Believe" His actual Word's, then they reject the Armor God created to protect us from it.

At any rate, this stuff in written in your Bible, you just need to have Faith that they are true and religious man is not.
it is written in the Bible that we are saved by grace through faith for good works. you do not believe this.

it was said by Jesus " whosoever believes in Him ( me ) shall have eternal life. you do not believe this.

the Father said of the Son" hear Him . you refuse to obey the Father . you insist His words at Sinai are superior to the Son.

the Son said all authority has been given to Him. the Son said he had the power to forgive sins on earth. you refuse to believe He could forgive the thief then and there.

the Bible clearly proves the Trinity. the words of the Son himself- " I ( 1 ) will pray the Father ( 2 ) and He will send the Comforter ( 3 ).

I could go on and on about all the anti-Christian stuff you preach.

but, you do not care. you are here to push your religion and care nothing about any Scripture that proves your garbage theology wrong.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
it is written in the Bible that we are saved by grace through faith for good works. you do not believe this.

it was said by Jesus " whosoever believes in Him ( me ) shall have eternal life. you do not believe this.

the Father said of the Son" hear Him . you refuse to obey the Father . you insist His words at Sinai are superior to the Son.

the Son said all authority has been given to Him. the Son said he had the power to forgive sins on earth. you refuse to believe He could forgive the thief then and there.

the Bible clearly proves the Trinity. the words of the Son himself- " I ( 1 ) will pray the Father ( 2 ) and He will send the Comforter ( 3 ).

I could go on and on about all the anti-Christian stuff you preach.

but, you do not care. you are here to push your religion and care nothing about any Scripture that proves your garbage theology wrong.
You got that right.......He is a Cainologist pushing a man made religion.....nothing more......
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,586
10,560
113
You still refuse to accept how His people "received the Law" in the Old Covenant. The medium the Law was written on is not the issue here. It is how the Law is placed in our mind. That is what is new. There is no mention of a "New Law", only how His Law is placed in our mind.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

No longer do folks have only one way to "receive the Law" which was to go to the Levite and the Scribe, which as the Scriptures tell us, had corrupted His Laws, or any religious preacher, like the "Believing Pharisees" in acts 15.. The Messiah replaced the Old Priesthood with the New Priesthood in which He will place His Laws directly on our hearts. Not religious man's traditions and Doctrines, not new laws, but His Laws that were once written in Stone, are now placed on Fleshy tables of our hearts.

2 cor. 3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

No mention of different Laws, only how they are administered.

And how do we know we received His Laws from Him and not some religious tradition from other spirit?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You also refuse to accept how sin's were forgiven in the Old Covenant.

One had to take and animal to a Levite Priest, who then performed "works of the Law" for the justification of sins. Some Jews continue this practice to this very day. but in Paul's time, it was the practice of the Mainstream Preachers of the time.

They, like you, couldn't accept that the New Covenant was the Change in the Priesthood.

But Jesus was not a Levite, and the "Law of Moses" said these sin cleansing rituals could only be performed by Levites. So God's Law was changed by necessity so that the Perfect Man could become the High Priest.

Heb. 7:
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And what was this change? The elimination of the Law and Prophets? The destruction of His Sabbaths? The re-writing of His Commandments?

In your church and many others yes, this is exactly what you preach. But not the Word's of God.

Heb. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; (Not Levi) of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Before Jesus could become the High Priest, and take over the duties of the Priesthood, the Law stating the Tribe of Levi was the only bloodline that could be God's Priest's HAD to be changed. And it was.

No more Levite Priests just as He Promised.

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Heb. 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Priests of the Old Covenant) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


2 cor. 4:
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Starting with the Catholic church and adopted by all her protestant and non denominational daughters, religious man has taught that the Old Covenant and the Old Testament are the same thing. And that the Messiah came to eliminate the Law and Prophets. This is a great deceit. It actually started with the serpent and Eve.

But religious tradition is a powerful evil and if one doesn't "Believe" His actual Word's, then they reject the Armor God created to protect us from it.

At any rate, this stuff in written in your Bible, you just need to have Faith that they are true and religious man is not.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter was pretty much convinced that their version of the Law of Moses was the same version that plagued the "fathers" for centuries.

And the Messiah made it very clear that they taught a Law, they called it God's Law, but it was not.

Peter then led them away from their version of the Law of Moses, and directed them into the true Law of Moses.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (All parts of the Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What would they learn from Moses and the Prophets? The "Yoke" these religious men placed on the shoulders of men?

Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

uh huh.

Acts 15:5 -- does it say "
teachings and commandments of men" or does it say "the Law" ?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
it is written in the Bible that we are saved by grace through faith for good works. you do not believe this.

it was said by Jesus " whosoever believes in Him ( me ) shall have eternal life. you do not believe this.

the Father said of the Son" hear Him . you refuse to obey the Father . you insist His words at Sinai are superior to the Son.

the Son said all authority has been given to Him. the Son said he had the power to forgive sins on earth. you refuse to believe He could forgive the thief then and there.

the Bible clearly proves the Trinity. the words of the Son himself- " I ( 1 ) will pray the Father ( 2 ) and He will send the Comforter ( 3 ).

I could go on and on about all the anti-Christian stuff you preach.

but, you do not care. you are here to push your religion and care nothing about any Scripture that proves your garbage theology wrong.
Thanks once again for another scripture filled, loving and thoughtful reply to a post you completely ignored.

Praise Yah!!
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
uh huh.

Acts 15:5 -- does it say "teachings and commandments of men" or does it say "the Law" ?
The Pharisees which believed said "Law of Moses".

But as the post you ignored proves, Peter didn't buy it. And correctly identified their religion as the "Yoke" the Pharisees placed on the shoulders of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens (Yoke) and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders (Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is why it is important to study "Every Word" of God and not just pick a word here and a word there to preserve religious traditions.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
9,204
4,940
113
Thanks once again for another scripture filled, loving and thoughtful reply to a post you completely ignored.

Praise Yah!!
and, as usual, you ignore all the Scripture and Scripture based information, and attack and mock me.

you know, usually when someone does not address what someone says, and just attacks the person saying it, it means that the person cannot refute what was said.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,262
4,202
113
No worries, not only are we supposed to forgive but I honestly feel respect for anyone who approaches with honesty to ones words rather than manipulation of their words, praiseYah! He is our Strength! and I agree the more I learn about greek and hebrew the more I feel I want to read directly from it... It funny because even modern languages don;t have direct counterparts in eanglish and whatever language but we want there to be when translating from ancient language...



Yes but "not give up meeting together" has nothing to do with a "church" building. Believers can meet in homes, coffe shops, parks, they can e-mail, text, talk and gather anytime anywhere to encourage, dwell on the word, to Yah's will, etc. So... the past 2 churches I have been to in the last 10 years both offered me a job, well paying even, even though I had differences in doctrine they said they liked my knowledge in the word and whatnot, however i don;t believe in joining earth based denomanations bottom line, fellowship is fine, but again not "official" building is needed as in reality there is no such thing as an "official" meeting place/building, it's tradition. There was Bayith YHWH (the Temple) but that is no more, and since then there is not a single verse that says we should worhip and gather at a certian place. I hope that explins it well.


I hope you are faithful to meeting together, you see the Spiritual Gifts are NOT FOR SELF EDIFICATION, they are to edify OTHERS. And no, I am not a Charismatic, I do not believe their slant on the gifts. God will take care of our needs as long as we are faithful to edifying others. I just attend Indian Hills Community Church, and I never Joined, but I am faithful, and I attend a Bible Study at one of the Church Members home too.


1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify. Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.

That word good is not in the original language, and it just confuses the translation. The last thing HE was talking about in the previous sentence even, was EDIFICATION. If anyone would thinks there needs to be a clarification there, it should be edification.

I have one more topic I want you encourage you with. The word Church, is not in the Bible anywhere. When Jesus said "I will built my", HE did not say CHURCH. He actually said "ASSEMBLY". Look that up. So did the Apostles, however, I do not know when the added meaning of Church came about, but I assume they thought it was okay because the local Christians were calling themselves the Church. I think they did us a great disservice. With that definition, look at the following verses:

John 10:16 (NASB)
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

I am convinced, though many will argue with me, the Sheep HE is talking to, are the last of the OLD TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY.
And I am equally convinced that the other sheep not of this Fold, is our NEW TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY.
Which become ONE FLOCK at the Calling Out of the BRIDE.

Would that NOT make Both groups of Saints co-equally the BRIDE OF CHRIST?

Think about it. That is why I think they did us a great disservice by changing the Word from ASSEMBLY to Church.

I need to get back on topic again.
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
417
77
28
Most lawyers and Pharisees fail to understand that Christ was born, lived and died under the law which ratified the New Covenant...his words MUST be interpreted in light of this truth....HE also had many NEW things to say, but they COULD NOT BE SAID until the NEW had been ratified by his blood which CHANGED the way GOD deals with men according to a NEW COVENANT RELATIONSHIP......the very words of PAUL as applied unto true NEW TESTAMENT churches ARE the words that Christ speaks about when he states that he has many things to say, but the disciples were not ready to receive them.....
Amen, the New Covenant was ushered in after his death. He taught much of the Law as a rabbi, to show the Jews how hopeless is was. And that they would only truly achieve the Kingdom of Heaven by Gods grace and mercy. Not by their outward appearance of good works. Even some of the disciples had a hard time understanding this after Christs death. Chronology and context are so important as God testifies to us the magnitude of His love for us.