Not By Works

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Dec 28, 2016
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So many Greek scholars here.
How many initials do you have after your name??

Bye.
He doesn't need initials after his name to express a simple truth and remain valid. If he did have letters after his name, then you'd mock his scholarly credentials. Why not spread some of that "love" you were rebuking others for not having earlier, FranC?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Nice rejection or denial of the truth....what is the WILL of the HEAVENLY FATHER............?

TO BELIEVE on HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT.....but of course you must reject this and insert your own ideology and working for, self saving blather................to the detriment of ALL who read your posts and to your own demise I might add.
John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I think you believe is "another Jesus" which was not sent by God. I believe in the one spoken about in the Scriptures, it is His Word's I live by.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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He doesn't need initials after his name to express a simple truth and remain valid. If he did have letters after his name, then you'd mock his scholarly credentials. Why not spread some of that "love" you were rebuking others for not having earlier, FranC?
I haven't been mean to anyone.
I just don't think anyone here is a Greek scholar.
Am I wrong??

Guess you missed that long link I posted.
Does it not suit you?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Why do people under the NEW covenant of GRACE like to place themselves UNDER the OLD covenant of DEATH......

WHERE SIN abounds, GRACE abounds the more
Trouble is DC

Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Abounded.

g5248. ὑπερπερισσεύω hyperperisseuō; from 5228 and 4052; to super-abound: — abound much more, exceeding.
AV (2) - much more abound 1, exceeding 1;
to abound beyond measure, abound exceedinglyto overflow, to enjoy abundantly

So when we quote the above as you have, then we are accused of being greasy gracers.
We use it as an excuse to sin. Yay we can sin all we want and it's forgiven.

The assumption is and it comes across as if we stop at verse 21.
We haven't read

Romans 6:1-4

Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

God forbid we should use his grace as an excuse to sin.
But thank God when we do sin Jesus paid the price, and we repent when we do sin.

What is the work of God?
Off course we all know this, it's to believe in his son who died on the cross, took all our sins upon him to reconcile us to the Father.

When we do that then we have the Holy Spirit in us who reveals the whole package.

We want to sin less because we love him, we want to do works because we love him.

If it's out of any different motive then we have an issue.
If it's to be loved or accepted or be saved then the motive is wrong.
Jesus accepted the sheep because they did works of love, the goats did not, therefore rejected.

Jesus rejected those who did great works because he never knew them, along with those who did nothing.
Both sets called him Lord yet both rejected.

I wonder why?

Works will never ever save us.
They cannot otherwise Jesus would have said so, he would have said whilst on earth
"I've shown you how, no to do and I don't need to go to the cross, see ya later"

No he said believe in him, that's the work of God.
He also said "If you love me you will"

Even us greasy gracers want to sin less and do good works.
Out of love of course
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Yeah. Problem is that you used a bad analogy...
We MUST change the oil in our cars every now and then or they die.
you never listened to the 'car talk' radio show? Click and Clack?
one of them had a car they never changed the oil in. for decades. ran fine. just topped it off once in a while as it naturally burned off through use.

((go figure))
 

fizzyjoe

Well-known member
Oct 22, 2018
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Keeping D's alive still I see, how are things since I've been gone, have I missed trolls or anything? Lol 2goguq.jpg
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Yours is a very beautiful thought.
However, when GOD speaks, He does not make requests.
IF we're saved, we MUST obey God.
It could be from love, and it should be from love.

What if He tells us not to do something we want to do?
Do we love Him enough to listen?
So, does this mean we NEVER sin?

We DO sin. So how do YOU explain that?

We MUST obey God---whether or not we do is a different matter.


NOW PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS, but you are one of the most THICK HEADED people you I have ever seen.
And I SINCERELY want to get you to understand. REREAD MY LAST POST: #74,937

When you are Born Again, the Holy Spirit rushes in and performs several Ministries in the First Moment or Two:

1. He Indwells the Heart of the Believer forever.
2. He Pours GOD's LOVE directly into the Heart of that Person.
3. He Births the once dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, with a will to Obey Him.
4. He Empowers us to Repent and RECEIVE Jesus Christ as LORD meaning Master.
5. He Causes that born again human spirit to Hunger and Thirst for HIS WORD.
6. He Sets Himself up as a TEACHER to explain the WORD of GOD.
7. He Baptizes the Believer Into the Spiritual Body of Christ - and that is the BAPTISM THAT IS SALVATION.

The happens the Moment YOU genuinely BELIEVE.

After you are SAVED, He Empowers that individual to LOVE GOD BACK in the form of Obedience.

Now I challenge you to find those SEVEN things in Scripture the MOMENT you first genuinely BELIEVED.



It has NEVER BEEN "MUST OBEY".

For the born again believer, it has always been WILL OBEY from the first moment ON. You see, HE gave us a NEW LIVING SPIRIT, with the Desire to OBEY already in it. It is natural for our spirit to WANT to Obey HIM. Are we Perfect At It? NO! However, our human bodies has a sin nature in it. So we WILL want to confess Sin as soon as we identify it in our lives. As we MATURE Spiritually, our Human Spirit, will dominate over the Human Mind. We will Sin LESS, and LESS, and LESS.

Now can you see the WILL OBEY in the TRUE BORN AGAIN BELIEVER?

If this seems like all foolishness to you, the answer is you have not been born again, YET.
You NEED to sincerely repent, and ask JESUS to come into your HEART and Rule over your LIFE as LORD and Master.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Wow!!!!!, Fizzyjoe is back, where ya been dude.
and welcome back jack!

Where is fizzyjoe......:geek:

 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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MMD, We pretty much agree. You just don't like my wording or the word MUST.
IF we're truly depending on Jesus for our salvation, why would ANY word bother us?
We MUST obey, then if we do or not is a totally different question. We won't be perfect till we die.

As to your question... NO ONE here that I've read so far says that we're saved by works.
And my answer would be:
"because I trusted in you as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation?"

So does this mean I MUST NOT obey God?
No.
So where's the disconnect? There is none.
Did Jesus say "You must obey or did he say, if you love me?

I think the problem is when we say "We must"
The problem for me is that if we focus on that, then when we do not it can and does lead to a mindset that focuses on getting it wrong, which leads to I must work harder to be forgiven, loved and accepted, such then leads to doubt as to whether we can are saved or not, which then compounds the situation.

It's like having a loan that has an interest rate that is compound.
The debt just grows and grows and we can never pay it off.

Don't get me wrong.
There has been many a time when I have done something that I did not want to do but I have and not necessarily out of love, but I have been obedient.

Yet there are times I have not done when I should have done.
That includes sins of the flesh.
Now that lead me down the route of working harder, I added the compound interest, but did God?

I don't think so.

That is why we should be quick to confess our sins.
It restores relationship with God that we blocked because we did not do.
Yet we know that the temple curtain was torn in two, the full debt was paid on the cross when Jesus said "It is finished" therefore we can come before God as we are.

Even as someone who did not do a must.
That's why Jesus intercedes for us.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Any reason why you stopped at v11?

What about the next verses

1 Corinthians 3:12-16
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Your first line says it all.
If a person believes they will obey. If they don't obey, it is because they don't really believe.
It doesn't say it all.

In fact it's out of kilter.

Look at what was said.

If a person believes they will obey.
How can a person believe they will obey?
You either obey or not.
So there is no believing you will will obey.
Abram obeyed because he believed, he didn't believe he would.
So let's ask the question.
"What if you don't believe or do not obey?

Did Abram fully believe and obey?

Genesis 20:1-7

Abraham and Abimelech
1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this.”
6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

So given what you agree with.

If you don't obey is it that you do not truly believe or is it that you got it wrong?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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You know brother.....you and I have had good discussions in the past.....you have seen me post many things over the last 5 years almost....you tell me what do I think........seriously.....HAVE you EVER, ONE TIME seen me point at any other than Jesus/God as the source of everything spiritual?????
lol, I agree we have had great discussions and see eye to eye on most things. In post #74,844 when I began I explained that I was not arguing or disagreeing with you maybe how I worded things was bad on my part. It was something I wondered about and so not to distract from the op will not press it further. Peace to you brother...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, (Transgress God's Commandments) that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

"God forbid" means NO Decon.

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

According to the Bible it is the manner in Which God's instructions are administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven, that distinguishes the difference between to old and new covenants. There is nothing about the elimination of God's definition of sin, in fact, it implies that He will write HIS Laws on our hearts so will never forget them, not erase them from our hearts.

Who on this this forum is suggesting we find a Levite Priest and give him a goat to sacrifice for our sins? That is the old covenant way of atoning for sins. Who has ever implied we should return to that?

What are you even talking about?
HAHAHAHHA now wait a minute....YOU are the one peddling that we should live by EVERY WORD of or from GOD...make up your mind pal....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
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Did Jesus say "You must obey or did he say, if you love me?

I think the problem is when we say "We must"
The problem for me is that if we focus on that, then when we do not it can and does lead to a mindset that focuses on getting it wrong, which leads to I must work harder to be forgiven, loved and accepted, such then leads to doubt as to whether we can are saved or not, which then compounds the situation.

It's like having a loan that has an interest rate that is compound.
The debt just grows and grows and we can never pay it off.

Don't get me wrong.
There has been many a time when I have done something that I did not want to do but I have and not necessarily out of love, but I have been obedient.

Yet there are times I have not done when I should have done.
That includes sins of the flesh.
Now that lead me down the route of working harder, I added the compound interest, but did God?

I don't think so.

That is why we should be quick to confess our sins.
It restores relationship with God that we blocked because we did not do.
Yet we know that the temple curtain was torn in two, the full debt was paid on the cross when Jesus said "It is finished" therefore we can come before God as we are.

Even as someone who did not do a must.
That's why Jesus intercedes for us.
I don't have a problem with the word MUST obey.
I'm sorry for those who do because apparently God is not Almighty to them.
All I know is what Jesus said over and over again. Here's one more verse:

Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? "

When God speaks, it's not a request.
It's a MUST.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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If a person believes they will obey. If they don't obey, it is because they don't really believe.

1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

These are not words spoken by the Pope or some religious man, this is the Word of God, and it says I play a part in my own salvation.

Phil. 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Cor. 5:
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Unbelief = Greek "apistia" means "Faithlessness" unfaithfulness (disobedience) :- disbelief. From the word "apisteo" to be unbelieving, disbelieve, or by implication to disobey:- to believe not.

"Because of unbelief (Disobedience) they were cut off.

Same for those "Christians" in Matt. 7 that the Christ warns us about.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity Greek - "anomia" means illegality, violation of law or wickedness:- transgress the law, unrighteousness. from the word "anomos" means lawless, not subject to (jewish) law (by implication a gentile), or wicked:- without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

GG 101 is not embellishing at all, she is doing what the Christ tells ALL His people to do. "Live by EVERY WORD of God".

But if a person doesn't "believe" the Word of God which became Flesh, then they won't obey the Word of God which became Flesh, just like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.
Take it up with her and God....she is the one that embellished the actual definition of faith.....similar to your drivel I might add....and your quote of Matthew is directed at people who claim to know the LORD and expect to enter based upon all the wonderful works done in his name<--same blather you peddle....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, (Transgress God's Commandments) that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

"God forbid" means NO Decon.

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

According to the Bible it is the manner in Which God's instructions are administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven, that distinguishes the difference between to old and new covenants. There is nothing about the elimination of God's definition of sin, in fact, it implies that He will write HIS Laws on our hearts so will never forget them, not erase them from our hearts.

Who on this this forum is suggesting we find a Levite Priest and give him a goat to sacrifice for our sins? That is the old covenant way of atoning for sins. Who has ever implied we should return to that?

What are you even talking about?
The above is 100% correct.
The difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is that the law is still present but is now written on the heart. And, we have the Holy Spirit to be our paraclete. Jesus said it was good that He should go away so the Holy Spirit could come to be by our side.

As you've stated, the law must still be kept, but the METHOD has changed.
God is the same and does not change His directions and commandments.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Take it up with her and God....she is the one that embellished the actual definition of faith.....similar to your drivel I might add....and your quote of Matthew is directed at people who claim to know the LORD and expect to enter based upon all the wonderful works done in his name<--same blather you peddle....
Wow. @Studyman even explained how BELIEVE means to OBEY.
In the actual GREEK!
Too bad some are not willing to listen or have an open mind.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Good. You know how to use a Greek lexicon.

Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Jesus said that those who practice lawlessness will be lost.
To practice lawlessness means that we do not obey God.
The lawless do not obey God.


I fear that YOU are peddling a false gospel.
And while we're here, do this....
Find out if the concept of salvation as we know it today was present in Jesus' time or if it's a new idea which started in the 1,500's.
Find out if Jesus cared more about your "salvation" or if He cared more about your entrance into the Kingdom of God here on earth.

How do you get in?
How do you get to stay there?

You seem pretty well-versed; I'm sure you could find out the above on your own.
Greek lexicon......you are reminding me of Fran.....all mouth and no substance......NO longer with us I might add