Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I am not unused to a little hostility Lol! I was on End Times for a long time and moderator some of that time. That was a lively group! So Studyman doesnt bother me.
I beleve like I said that salvation is a process ,saved in a sense when we are covnverted, saved as we progress on this salvation road and truly completing that salvation at the first resurrection. That includes grace , faith and obedience to Gods laws. His laws are living laws that guide our everyday life, how we treat others for one thing. We dont have other Gods before Him,we dont lie, steal covet and etc A life of outgoing love toward God and man
I Jhn5 vr 3
You are MIXING Salvation with Sanctification, which is a separate Process.

Acts 2:47 (YLT)
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly.

Romans 8:24 (HCSB)
24 Now in this hope we were saved, yet hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:5 (HCSB)
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Titus 3:5 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


See how your false theory CREATES contradictions?

Salvation is Instant we Genuinely Believe.

Sanctification is the Life Long Process of conforming our bodies to be MORE and MORE, like Jesus Christ.
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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You are MIXING Salvation with Sanctification, which is a separate Process.

Acts 2:47 (YLT)
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly.

Romans 8:24 (HCSB)
24 Now in this hope we were saved, yet hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:5 (HCSB)
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Titus 3:5 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


See how your false theory CREATES contradictions?

Salvation is Instant we Genuinely Believe.

Sanctification is the Life Long Process of conforming our bodies to be MORE and MORE, like Jesus Christ.
You are MIXING Salvation with Sanctification, which is a separate Process.

Acts 2:47 (YLT)
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly.

Romans 8:24 (HCSB)
24 Now in this hope we were saved, yet hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:5 (HCSB)
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Titus 3:5 (HCSB)
5 He saved usnot by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


See how your false theory CREATES contradictions?

Salvation is Instant we Genuinely Believe.

Sanctification is the Life Long Process of conforming our bodies to be MORE and MORE, like Jesus Christ.
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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[/QUOTE

Were saved, being saved and shall be saved= a process VCO not yet completed until the resurrection Being set apart is part of that salvation process , not a separate thing.

shall be saved many times in NT Acts 15:11 Romans 5: 9-10 Past, Present, and Future
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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You are misapplying the hebrews Passage, it does not say what you think it is saying, It is talking about people who have heard the word. Claim they believe the word. Like many of Jesus disciples. Walked with the church having never actually having faith in the word (Claimed faith only) and when push came to shove they lived their true faith out. Which was no faith at all.

As for overcoming, Who is he who overcomes?

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Those born of God can not be blotted out. Because they are born of God. Everyone is written in the book of life, The ones blotted out are those who did not overcome by faith, Faith which saves a soul. Where Gd adopts us as his children, Born of Him. Where he becomes our Abba Father.

Hope you had a good break.
NO,EG these were those who had been enlightened and had been enlightened and been made partakers of the HS, they definitely were Christian people who willfully sinned after having been given the HS .
People who have been written in the book of life can be blotted out and have his part taken out of the book of life!
We have a life time of overcoming this world, Satan and our own human nature and faith is a big part of that but hand in hand with works
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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NOW YOU HAVE ARRIVED AT THE TRUTH.
THAT'S THE POINT. Sanctification IS SEPARATE FROM Salvation.

SALVATION is the FREE GIFT from GOD, with absolutely NOTHING FROM US. THAT IS what GRACE IS. We receive that which we CANNOT EARN and DO NOT DESERVE. Our Human Spirit was brought to ETERNAL LIFE by the Holy Spirit, and the human spirit was born DEAD, because of the inherited sin nature from ADAM.

Sanctification, is a Product of LOVE, and it says that HOLY SPIRIT poured GOD's LOVE directly into our GOOD SOIL in our Hearts (human spirit). After we are SAVED BY GRACE ALONE, we will want to Please GOD out of the Harvest of that LOVE that was sown in your Heart (human spirit). Therefore our Obedience spawns out of GOD'S LOVE IN US. And Sanctification is the Process where we in our bodies become more and more like CHRIST. So Sanctification will NOT BE COMPLETE until we get the Glorified Body at the Resurrection, WHILE SALVATION is Complete the MOMENT we genuinely repent, and receive HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.

You see SALVATION is related to our HUMAN SPIRIT.

And SANCTIFICATION is related to our BODIES, becoming more like Christ.

When you try to mix the Two, you CREATE ALL KINDS OF CONTRADICTIONS in Scriptures.


Titus 3:5-8 (HCSB)
5 He saved us [note the past tense verbiage]not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace [note the past tense verbiage], we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

Romans 5:1-10 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith [note the past tense verbiage], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand [note the past tense verbiage], and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance,
4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope.
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit
[note the past tense verbiage] who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood [note the past tense verbiage], we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son [note the past tense verbiage], ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!

John 5:24 (HCSB)
24 “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life [note the past tense verbiage] and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.


So SALVATION IS SPIRITUAL and happens the moment you genuinely Believe, and SANCTIFICATION is conforming the Body to be LIKE CHRIST's which will take a lifetime until the resurrection.

NOTE these last two verses, may well explain how long ago you were SAVED:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Revelation 13:8 (HCSB)
8 All those who live on the earth will worship him [Antichrist], everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
I finally found this,sorry to be so late answering.
Ok to start our human spirit is not brought to eternal life until the resurrection when we no longer have the human spirit and are totally a spirit being.Satan tried that tactic in the garden when he said You shall not surely die to Eve , that we have an immortal soul lie first proclaimed to mankind, There is no such thing as inherited sin Ezek tells us plainly we do not die for the sins of our father, but for our sins
Yes we do not earn our salvation, no works can ever earn salvation! But as part of our salvation we are to keep Gods laws, to obey Him,to walk in His Way and there is a definite Way spelled out in the Bible!
What you call sanctification is part of the process of salvation, not a separate thing at all. Again yes salvation is a past, present and future thing, a process!*

This belief is in total error to somehow try and do away with obedience to God,another ploy of Satans!
 

Suzy37

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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NO,EG these were those who had been enlightened and had been enlightened and been made partakers of the HS, they definitely were Christian people who willfully sinned after having been given the HS .
People who have been written in the book of life can be blotted out and haveth his part taken out of the book of life!
We have a life time of overcoming this world, Satan and our own human nature and faith is a big part of that but hand in hand with works
sorry I forgot to give you scriptures on that
Hebrews 6Vrs 4-6
Rev 22vr19
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Here is where we come to the word born or is it begotten? Same word but understanding and context explains it Also notice , vr4 of this chapter, this is the love of God that we keep His commandments,We show Gods love by obeying Him, by expanding that love as Christ did by keeping the law (commandments) in the spirit

. The word translated as born or begotten is gennao g1080 in Strongs notice in Jhn 5 vr 1 it is used both ways, A person born of God is a spirit being , that happends at the resurrection when we are born into Gods Family . At this time we are begotten of God and like an unborn baby we grow in the mother (Church ) until born at the resurrection and get our spirit bodies! If we were born of God now we could not sin.I Jhn3 vr9. This born again idea at conversion doesnt hold up well when we read Jhn3 vr6-8 .If we are born again where it says if born again we will be spirit we will be like the wind , like the air no longer flesh but spirit!

Yeah, I know how that will go over !
You know how it will go over? And how is that?

Born again means what it means, Born again, Jesus had a term for it He called it life, and gave us the length of that life. Eternal.

As for being born again producing fruit, or his children obeying his commands. I am not sure why you think this is an issue, Faith produces works, Lack of faith, or mere belief may cause people to go through the motion. But produces no works, and no fruit. As Paul said, We are saved by the means of grace through our faith. Not of works. But those saved are CREATED ANEW (there is that new birth thingy again) in Christ jesus FOR GOOD WORKS.

Unlike their old nature, which could not produce works because it was forign to them and against their nature, Their new nature has a nature which produces works as its norm, where not doing works is now against their nature (it is harder to not do work than to do work, and work ALWAYS satisfies)

Broan again, regenerated, Done by the spirit. As jesus said, Whoever believes in him WILL NOT be put to shame, For they will never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst, have the food which endures forever, Will be raised (nbot might) on the last day, and given this assurance, they will never be lost.

John 3-6 would be a good place for you to start and learn what this new “eternal life” Which John said we have right now.looks like and how we get it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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So when the ones defines pisteuo as a " personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ," That doesn't require any effort or what you call work . You just think because you say something or Google something it's true . Well , it's not .
I previously asked you a question - "So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up?” Yet instead of answering my question, you instead chose to deflect and resort to a straw man argument which is very telling. :cautious:
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You do realize that is the word for word definition of the Greek word pisteuo out of the Vines Greek dictionary ?

Are you saying that Greek dictionarys definition is a false gospel ?

And what are your qualifications to say the Vines is wrong and you are right ?
Which Bible committee are you on again?

Give us the link to the vines stuff you keep twaddling about, and the text as well.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Ladies and gentleman, Pisteuo came on this site telling us all it was "the wake up call for the church" he is preaching with his new doctrine.

(Well, it's not new really. It's Catholic teaching wrapped up in faux exegesis).
 
Mar 14, 2011
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NO,EG these were those who had been enlightened and had been enlightened and been made partakers of the HS, they definitely were Christian people who willfully sinned after having been given the HS .
People who have been written in the book of life can be blotted out and have his part taken out of the book of life!
We have a life time of overcoming this world, Satan and our own human nature and faith is a big part of that but hand in hand with works
Enlightened does not mean saved, It just means the truth has been revealed. The disciples who walked with Christ, even judas, Who was the devil, partook of the Holy Spirit. By being witnesses and experiencing the power of the HS, even thouogh they were not saved.

Willful sin is rejecting Christ, Because you were enlightened to the truth and rejected that truth, and refused to repent.

I can ot overcome sin, If I could. I would not need Jesus, We would not have needed the cross. And we would not have the continued status of relying on Gods grace being sufficient, Because I continue to fail. And will until the day I die, I will mature, and as paul said, continue to run the race. But I will never be sinless in this lifetime. Thus I will never meet Gods demand required for me to save myself by my own actions.
 
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Three or four times I addressed her fallacies....she, like all workers for, rejected it and dug deeper theological working for hole void of context, truth and biblical understanding.......
She is new, I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she is open to learning..
 
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As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. James 2:26

...teaching them to OBEY WHATEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU… Matthew 28:18-20

...And this is his command: TO BELIEVE in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and TO LOVE one another as he commanded us.1 John 3:23

...And this is love: that WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that YOU WALK IN LOVE. 2 John 1:6

...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, but also TO SUFFER FOR HIM.
,Philippians 1:29

,,,Although he was a son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM..Hebrews 5:8-9

It is clear that Jesus is the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him and suffer for Him. Those who obey Him are the ones who have genuine saving FAITH unlike those who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH and know God but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. Titus 1:16


Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6
Your talking to the wrong people

No one here emphasises or believes that a child of God will not be changed, and live out their new life. Our beef is th ebelief this personal change and act of working has anything to do with maintaining our salvation.

We believe as the scripture days, He who BEGAN a good work WILL COMPLETE it until THE DAY OF CHRIST.

The work God started in us, he will complete on ressurection day.. It does not say might, it says will. Our hope is in this GOSPEL TRUTH. Not in our ability to change or do good works.
 
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It seems like you reject everything that goes against your FALSE MAN MADE doctrine that NULLIFIES God's WORD, laws, commands, teachings and instructions (math 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24) but what did John say about this?

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.1 John 2:3-6

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

King Solomon in His WISDOM wrote and said;

...Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

While in Hebrews it says;

...Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Hebrews 9:27

And Paul said;

..l Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16

And the Lord Jesus Christ himself said;

...Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21,23-24

Are your words more trustworthy?

...He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. John 7:18

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 5:6
Lol. Said in ignorance.
DC does not disagree with ANY of those passages. Your continued insistence he and others do just goes to PROVE you have no idea what our faith is in.

Why do you not sit still for awhile. Open your eyes and your heart, and actually listen to people for a change. Maybe then you will not make false accusations against people based on your ignorance of what they believe.
 
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sorry I forgot to give you scriptures on that
Hebrews 6Vrs 4-6
Rev 22vr19
Already answered and responded to.

The dead are delivered to christ, not the living. I am not dead. I have overcome, Because I have believed in the name of Jesus and been born of God.

Hebrews is talking about people returning to the law. Because although they were enlightened and tasted Gods word and grace, their faith was always in the law. And if they return after being enlightened and tasting the truth, there is no hope of them ever returning to truth again.


Neither teach salvation must be earned by our works..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Try the New Strongs Expanded with cross references from Thayer's and brown, driver, Briggs.

And the Vines Expository .

Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe."
I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. In the saving sense of Pisteuo, I agree with that. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (y)

BUT, don't lose sight of the fact that depending on the CONTEXT, Pisteuo can mean just to believe. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/confidence/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust/confidence/reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *Keep in mind the Greek for "believe" in James 2:19 is Pisteuo. ;) No personal surrender to Christ there or a life inspired by such surrender.

Vines : "pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
In Hebrews 11:1, we read that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Now let's break down "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." It sounds to me like Vines is mixing the fruit of faith with the essence of faith and "on the surface" that may appear to support salvation by works, which would explain why works-salvationists are very fond of that definition. :unsure:

When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance upon Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him.

The life inspired by such surrender which "follows" is the "fruit" of faith. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. As I stated before. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. In the saving sense of Pisteuo, I agree with that. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (y)

BUT, don't lose sight of the fact that depending on the CONTEXT, Pisteuo can mean just to believe. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/confidence/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust/confidence/reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *Keep in mind the Greek for "believe" in James 2:19 is Pisteuo. ;) No personal surrender to Christ there or a life inspired by such surrender.

In Hebrews 11:1, we read that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Now let's break down "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." It sounds to me like Vines is mixing the fruit of faith with the essence of faith and "on the surface" that may appear to support salvation by works, which would explain why works-salvationists are very fond of that definition. :unsure:

When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance upon Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him.

The life inspired by such surrender which "follows" is the "fruit" of faith. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. As I stated before. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
I guess he somehow got that from a new version. I would love to see that version. Not just his talking about it