Not By Works

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Oct 25, 2018
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Man is saved by God’s sovereign grace, nothing more, nothing less. God did not look down the hallways of time and find those He knew would accept Him and elected them accordingly. That is open theism and favoritism speaking.

Election took place before He said, “Let there be light”, in Genesis 1:3. The same power it took to raise us from the dead is the very same power that created all that we see and do not see, and also the very same power that raised Jesus from the dead. No decision making could cause that power, but that power caused our decision making. He rose us from the dead and we came to life and lived again.
 
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Man is saved by God’s sovereign grace, nothing more, nothing less. God did not look down the hallways of time and find those He knew would accept Him and elected them accordingly. That is open theism and favoritism speaking.

Election took place before He said, “Let there be light”, in Genesis 1:3. The same power it took to raise us from the dead is the very same power that created all that we see and do not see, and also the very same power that raised Jesus from the dead. No decision making could cause that power, but that power caused our decision making. He rose us from the dead and we came to life and lived again.
Soli Deo Gloria!!!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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sorry it has taken some time before i had a chance to reply to you properly.. long week @work & a number of conversations here i was trying to semi-keep-up with

Chapter seven's use of the word mind is dealing with head knowledge; knowing the law and desiring to serve it because you know it is good and makes sense to you to do so. This did not work for Paul nor will it work for us. The only way is Jesus Christ.
"knowing the law and desiring to serve it"
"this did not work for Paul nor will it work for us"

that's kind of a theme throughout Romans. for example,

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath.
(Romans 4:13-15)

ch. 7 opens with a declaration that because we have died in Him ((ch. 6)) we are not under law; we are free from it, both in requirement of it and in condemnation of it

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:1-6)

then he goes on to describe how the law awoke sin in him, how it reveals sin and makes sin all the more sinful, and condemns him to death.
and he describes how that in himself there are two laws at work, a law of sin and death in his flesh - which condemns - and a law of spirit & life in his mind. bearing in mind that he has just explained that we are dead, and by being dead we are not under the law, which convicts of sin and pronounces death, but living instead by the Spirit, he says

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
(Romans 7:20)

there is this tension, a dichotomous relationship within us between our flesh which sins and deserves death and our soul which serves righteousness and has been granted life. who will save us from the body of death - which is dead because of sin, according to the law which brings death and reveals sin?

praise God for Jesus His Christ!

therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. dead in Christ and being dead, not under the law though the law condemns the flesh. therefore because the flesh has been crucified and the penalty taken upon Himself by our Lord, even though the flesh sins, it is no longer us but sin dwelling in us which sins, because we have died in Him and our life is hid in Him. our flesh may yet be convicted of sin - doing the evil that our soul does not wish to do - but our souls are set free, having died to what once bound us and living now by faith, through His Spirit, preserved by God's own power through this faith, unto salvation.

you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(1 Peter 1:4-5)

we have died in Him and received life in Him, a life not by law, because we have died also to it, but by Spirit - even though the flesh may desire and do what is contrary to the law, the life in us serves righteousness. therefore there is no condemnation in Him; the flesh has been put to death and is no longer liable to the righteous condemnation of the law of sin and death, it having been satisfied in the body of Him in whom our trust is, into whom we have been immersed.

does this make sense?
so all this "
do good or else, because, the law" -- it's not that we ought not do good or even that we don't desire to good that i object. it's because it is flawed reasoning: we aren't under the law. there is another reason for us to do what is right.
amen, amen, amen! there is no other way but through Jesus Christ :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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God does not choose anyone for hell my friend.
i believe Romans 9:19-21 does not say that He doesn't. it says, i ain't nobody to presume to judge God if He does -- just like Job didn't get an answer to his question, but instead got, 'who do you think you are to ask?' -- and in righteous reply Job put his hand over his mouth.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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"Yes, they were saved." The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, "but they can never be lost."

At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. "Even if they walk away later." They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so.
Hi Budman, the Prophet Jonah is one of God's very own who tried to, "walk away later", Quote: "Running away from God is like running into darkness; always run to God never away from Him." (Author unknown).

These are familiar bible verses to most but are ignored by those who believe in grace plus works/merit. When you hear the true gospel preached, "saved by grace through faith, in the Son of God and that not of yourself" it is like, "finding an oasis in the desert", an irresistible calling.

Quote: "God elects not by works but by His decree", Pastor John Piper

Romans5:20
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

1John1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1Corinthians
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yes, they were saved. The Bible says all who were there were believers. As I've said many times, God does chastise His children, even to the point of taking them home, but they can never be lost.

At the moment of conversion, one is saved forever. Even if they walk away later. They couldn't go to hell if they tried. If salvation is truly a gift, and grace actually unmerited, this has to be so.
People do not understand Salvation is not based on our reputation or goodness, But on Gods..

Either god can keep his word. Or he has failed.. those are the only two options.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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That's rather ridiculous, as once again, Paul speaks in the present tense. I am, I do. Not, I was, I did.

When Paul speaks of being free from the law of sin, he means free of the consequences of sin - meaning eternal condemnation.

Of course, as Paul stated, we should not walk after the flesh and sin. Because the "Old Man" (our old, sinful nature) is not destroyed. If it were, we would never sin. But I do. And you do too. The Old Man will be destroyed at the moment we leave this earthly life.

We possess an old and a new nature. God judges us by the new. That's imputed righteousness. That's why God can declare that we are already holy, sinless, righteous, and seated with Christ in heaven.

Yes, we have been delivered from sin (God remembers our sin no more) and (the second) death. Just as Paul was. But that does not mean, while in the flesh, we will not sin. And if even a single sin is attributed to us, we have broken all of God's Laws and are forever lost because the Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The Bible also says the sacrifice of Jesus will never again be repeated. So, either all of our sins have been forgiven - past, present, and future - or we are doomed if we owe a debt for even a single sin after conversion.
Its sad how people will twist scripture to prove to themselves they are right, instead of taking it for what it says.

Paul also called himself the chief of all sinners. This is how paul looked at himself.. For anyone to look and think they are no longer a sinner, they have some major issues.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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God does not choose anyone for hell my friend.
So people do have free will to be broken by God and recieve his gift? And others have free will to be broken by God and go down screaming and still reject him?

Because other than this, How can you say God did nto chose anyone for hell? (Just asking)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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But how can we understand if we omit so much of God's Words? Paul was fighting with Jews who were still following the Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification of sins. This is just Biblical truth. His argument was that Abraham didn't even have this Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. So Abraham's sins (Transgression of God's Laws he had) could not, and were not cleansed by the "Works of a Law" that was added 430 years after him.

He had God's Laws.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But he didn't have the Levitical Priesthood and their sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins that was "ADDED" Till the Seed should come.

His sins were forgiven, not by the "works of the Law" of a Priesthood specifically designed to cleanse sin "until the seed should come", but because when God Spoke to him, He "believed" Him and showed this belief by his works. As opposed to Eve, who was convinced to not believe Him, which she also showed by her works.

How can one have a honest conversation about "Works of the Law" and omit these relevant Biblical Facts?
Gods grace saved him because he had faith...xox...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Gods grace saved him because he had faith...xox...
Some people do not seem to understand, men of all times has been saved by Grace through Faith. Paul was arguing against all forms of self righteousness. Not just the law. People thnk that just because they do nto follow the law. Their self righteousness is ok. It is not.. Our self righteousness as scripture says is like bloody rags. If anyone thinks they will go to God and when God says, why should I let you into heaven, and they say my works. Look at all I did for you, It is the same as pulling out a bunch of bloody filthy rags, and saying here God this is why!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Works is where it's at.
Works is what it's all about.
Works will save you.

Would anyone want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge?
I can sell you a title to it cheap. NY is short of money so they are willing to sell it.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Some people do not seem to understand, men of all times has been saved by Grace through Faith. Paul was arguing against all forms of self righteousness. Not just the law. People thnk that just because they do nto follow the law. Their self righteousness is ok. It is not.. Our self righteousness as scripture says is like bloody rags. If anyone thinks they will go to God and when God says, why should I let you into heaven, and they say my works. Look at all I did for you, It is the same as pulling out a bunch of bloody filthy rags, and saying here God this is why!
Filthy rags

The term “filthy rags” is quite strong. The word filthy is a translation of the Hebrew word iddah, which literally means “the bodily fluids from a woman’s menstrual cycle.” The word rags is a translation of begged, meaning “a rag or garment.” Therefore, these “righteous acts” are considered by God as repugnant as a soiled feminine hygiene product (Got questions)

I say only filthy when we stand before God and claim works to be saved.

Yes we are to do good works.
The Bible states that clearly.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

Anything out of v8-9 that we do to earn salvation is basically the same as holding a rag that contains the fluid from a woman's menstrual cycle and want to God "Look at what I did"

It's disgusting in the eyes of God, makes a mockery of those hours that Jesus hung on the cross.

He shed his blood and it's his blood that saves us.

Martin Luther said, “The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man is that somehow he can make himself good enough to deserve to live forever with an all-holy God.”
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Some people do not seem to understand, men of all times has been saved by Grace through Faith. Paul was arguing against all forms of self righteousness. Not just the law. People thnk that just because they do nto follow the law. Their self righteousness is ok. It is not.. Our self righteousness as scripture says is like bloody rags. If anyone thinks they will go to God and when God says, why should I let you into heaven, and they say my works. Look at all I did for you, It is the same as pulling out a bunch of bloody filthy rags, and saying here God this is why!
The first line of your signature reminds me of the hymn "Saved by Grace". It contains the line "saved a wretch like me". The author was the captain of a slave ship. At times during a bad storm captains would have some cargo thrown overboard to keep the ship afloat. He did this with some of the slaves he was carrying at times. Later he became a Christian and then wrote this song about himself.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Filthy rags

The term “filthy rags” is quite strong. The word filthy is a translation of the Hebrew word iddah, which literally means “the bodily fluids from a woman’s menstrual cycle.” The word rags is a translation of begged, meaning “a rag or garment.” Therefore, these “righteous acts” are considered by God as repugnant as a soiled feminine hygiene product (Got questions)

I say only filthy when we stand before God and claim works to be saved.

Yes we are to do good works.
The Bible states that clearly.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

Anything out of v8-9 that we do to earn salvation is basically the same as holding a rag that contains the fluid from a woman's menstrual cycle and want to God "Look at what I did"

It's disgusting in the eyes of God, makes a mockery of those hours that Jesus hung on the cross.

He shed his blood and it's his blood that saves us.

Martin Luther said, “The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man is that somehow he can make himself good enough to deserve to live forever with an all-holy God.”
The given reason for the filthy rags concept is God can see into our sinful nature while doing our good works and sees we are not pure in our motives.