Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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I only have two questions.Do you believe what James wrote?

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Also;what happens to those


I only have two questions:

Do you really believe what James writes?It cannot be any clearer than this:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Do you understand what is meant when the passage says:

"...And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:..."

What alludes you is found in the following word.....

con·text
/ˈkäntekst/
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
"the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
synonyms:circumstances, conditions, surroundings, factors, state of affairs; Morethe parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning

Abraham was justified before GOD long before he offered Isaac......I fully expect you to reject this truth....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Works do not equal salvation but salvation does equal works. Faith without works is dead. The one who “does” the will of the Father...
Nobody disputes the fact that a saved child of God will bear fruit and or have at least one work......the conflict is found in those who embellish faith with works to gain, keep, top off, finish and or complete salvation.....the bible does not teach a faith plus works blend for or to keep salvation....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save the that believe!
 
W

WIbaptist

Guest
Nobody disputes the fact that a saved child of God will bear fruit and or have at least one work......the conflict is found in those who embellish faith with works to gain, keep, top off, finish and or complete salvation.....the bible does not teach a faith plus works blend for or to keep salvation....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save the that believe!
I agee that sanctification has nothing to do with salvation which the Roman Catholics push with their sacraments. But we should all strive for sanctification.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I agee that sanctification has nothing to do with salvation which the Roman Catholics push with their sacraments. But we should all strive for sanctification.
Sure......and sanctification is dual in usage......

a. Sanctified positionally in Christ eternally by faith (See Hebrews) <---based upon salvation/justification

b. Ongoing sanctification in our daily life by the transformational process described in Romans 12:1-2 and subject unto successes and or failures
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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False again....James is not peddling a cafe blend false gospel of faith plus work for salvation <--to gain, keep, top off, finish, embellish and or maintain salvation.....and the only one in peril friend is you.........right now in this post to me you are peddling the exact same thing the "plenteous in number" peddle......wake up

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life

He that believes on the SON is not condemned

For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast.

Galatians....

OH FOOLISH GALATIANS answer me this.....HAVING begun in the spirit (by faith) are you now made complete trough the flesh "works"
Who has bewitched thee......

Your gospel....

Lord Lord have we not done many wonderful works in your name.....

You claim JESUS as LORD (FAITH) and you fully believe and expect that you must maintain that position by your own works in order to remain saved and or enter the kingdom....FALSE

You are failing to deal with the plain /no interpretation/ no opinion needed writings of James.He actually puts all in proper perspective,in one place,that which Paul teaches over several chapters in various letters.However your use of the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus will prevent you from seeing/acknowledging this.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now. These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why REFUSE to take heed of them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
Actually, there are many of us here on this thread that know we are Saved Eternally, Born Again and Justified/Sanctified by God's Holy decree......and we barely argue and have very little division.

Why you may ask?

Because we absolutely know that we are Eternally Saved by Grace (a free gift) through Faith and it is NOT a man made doctrine, so there is nothing to argue about!!!!

Interesting eh?
...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about YOU HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

DO you reject this?
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA AN you totally pit James and PAUL against each other.....and you flat ignore context

PAUL said....WE CONCLUDE a man is justified BY FAITH without the deeds/works of the LAW.......you can read right?

James is not teaching a WORKS/FAITH salvation blend....

FAITH alone saves and justifies a man before GOD.....end of story....anything beyond that is the result of the faith and salvation one already possess eternally in Christ........

And according to you this is all Paul wrote?No matter how much you try to ignore it James is very clear.Faith alone cannot save.When you take into consideration all that Paul wrote you will see he says the same thing.
 

safswan

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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What alludes you is found in the following word.....

con·text
/ˈkäntekst/
noun
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
"the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
synonyms:circumstances, conditions, surroundings, factors, state of affairs; Morethe parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning

Abraham was justified before GOD long before he offered Isaac......I fully expect you to reject this truth....
I will accept what James says,will you?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I will accept what James says,will you?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)
if you keep reading. James also said there is one Judge and one Lawgiver, then asks " who are you to judge" ?

seems like you could a little less of a judgemental attitude...
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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Nobody disputes the fact that a saved child of God will bear fruit and or have at least one work......the conflict is found in those who embellish faith with works to gain, keep, top off, finish and or complete salvation.....the bible does not teach a faith plus works blend for or to keep salvation....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save the that believe!
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:40-41,45-46

...“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23

...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10
 

EmilyFoster

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2018
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Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
We are obedient to the truth, to the Gospel, we are obedient in that we are persuaded that God has made a complete plan for salvation in the finished work of Jesus upon the cross and His resurrection which defeated death.

By the way do you know that there is no word for "obey" in Hebrew in the sense that we use it in English?


Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
I do know that your teachings nullify the work of the cross and the finished and completed work of our Saviour.

You think you can add to what He has accomplished, by adding in your own works, truly shameful theology, completely unBiblical.

Indeed the gate is narrow that leads to life and few find it, because the natural propensity of man is towards his own self-righteousness and works of the law.

To the "worker" the free gift of salvation which cannot be taken back, denied or forsaken, is of course offensive, why....... because suddenly you have to admit your supposed obedience is a minscule speck, smaller than a photon, compared to the obedience of Jesus.

You cannot understand New Testament obedience until you understand Grace.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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Seriously this is shocking...:eek::(:cry:
You will be shocked when He comes at a time you don't expect Him.

...I know your deeds;you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, i will come like a thief and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelations 3:1-3
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
So if the gospel,,,,,,which means good news.....was present in the OT....
WHAT is the good news??????


Maybe you can answer with no snide remarks?
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Christ in us the Hope of Glory!
(Deu 30:6;Col 2:11; Rom 2:29 KJV)



If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, (the word) and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word (Christ) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. (The circumcision made without hands.)
(Deu 30:11-1)

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Word) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For Christ (through which the word is in the Heart and mouth) is the end of the law (written on stone and ink on parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. The circumcision made without hands; Christ in us the Hope of Glory.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(Rom 10:6-8,4; Heb 10:14-16)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Lets start at the beginning.:)

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

If we accept that dead here means "no faith" then a person who does not have works cannot be born again

Is that what you believe?
How can a person who has true saving faith not do one thing the savior asks? not change one area of their life? not do something (we may not see it, but God can ) a babe does something, he responds to his parents. He does not just ignore his parent.

So no, if a person has no work, seen or unseen, i do not believe that person ever had saving faith, his faith was dead, a dead faith can not save.

Now just because we can not see work does that prove a person is. It saved? No, and i do not think this is james point, james whole letter up to this point was to get his readers to test their own patience, their own walk and ther own faith, that is what james is doing here, askimg the people who are hearers not doers to test their own faith, you claim to have fsith great, is that faith real or dead?

As well

Before something can be dead, would it not have to be alive first?
I was born in adam, dead to God, i had never had life, so no, i disagree with this point.

James himself defines this dead faith as a faith that “does not have works” and is “by itself.”

Now I am not big on bible.org but this chap explains it well

If the Critical Text of 2:20 is accepted, faith without works is considered “useless” (argos). But regardless of the reading in v 20, James has implied this uselessness of faith without works by calling into question its “benefit” (ophelos, vv 14, 16). James, however, does not insinuate that faith without works cannot give eternal life. His interest resides in pragmatic matters. He has prepared for the thought of a useless, “dead” faith in 1:26-27. In those verses he faulted a devotion to the Lord that did not control the tongue or care for the needy. He concludes that, “this one’s religion is useless (mataios).”
https://bible.org/article/how-energize-our-faith-reconsidering-meaning-james-214-26

Everything James is preaching is about energizing our faith. Thinking that these are false converts really just feeds into what GodGrace101 preaches and this is why she is wrong.

Okay your turn:)
Dead faith is lifeless, paul preached a living faith, and called into question those claimed faith but did not show it in their actions and words, even the man to whome came to jesus and said he believed, but help him with his unbelief showed a living faith, proven by the fact jesus answered his request.

Faith of a mustard seed is living faith, with it we can move mountains, dead faith can not even do this.

As for this passage i would start from the begining,

James started by asking the question, what benefit does it have for a man if he claims to have faith. But has no work, can that faith save him?

The words bolded are what James is adressing, so salvation is in question.

True faith works

Abraham was saved when he believed (gen 15) his faith was justified, when he declaired his faith in Gods promise by offering his son many decades later.

Hebrews has a faith hall of faith where people who trusted in the hope god gave by acting on that living faith.

How can i claim i have faith in God that i am a sinner and because of my sin, and justly condemned, when i continue to serve self continually as if i had never been born again?

If you claim you have faith, but have not changed in any area, you need to retest or rethink if your faith was living, or was it dead.

I think this was james idea when he wrote these words
 
Mar 14, 2011
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As well, the issue in James 2:14-26 is not about gaining or proving that one has eternal life, but rather, living as a profitable servant of Jesus Christ. James mentions profit several times (cf. 2:14, 16) and the opposite of profit–being dead or useless (2:17, 20, 26).
Again sis, James asked, can this claimed faith save? His answer was no.

At least this is how i see it :p
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I only have two questions.Do you believe what James wrote?

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Also;what happens to those


I only have two questions:

Do you really believe what James writes?It cannot be any clearer than this:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Do you understand what is meant when the passage says:

"...And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:..."
2:20 James calls the person who separates faith and works (see v. 18) foolish, meaning “empty-headed.”
2:21 James clearly teaches justification by faith, for he quotes Gen. 15:6 in v. 23, which obviously connects the crediting of righteousness, that is, salvation, to Abraham’s belief (see Paul’s explanation of Gen. 15:6 in Rom. 4:1–12). The justification by works of which James is speaking is a different type of justification. This type of justification is before other people. In other words, James is using the word justified to mean “proved.” We prove to others our genuine faith in Christ through our works. But the justification that comes through faith is before God, and we do not “prove” ourselves to Him; instead, God declares us righteous through our association with Christ, the One who died for our sins (Rom. 3:28).
2:22 Faith and works should be together; there is a close relationship between the two. Faith produces works; and works makes faith perfect, meaning “mature” or “complete.”

Faith and works are not enemies. True faith and righteous works go hand in hand. They are two parts of God’s work in us. Faith brings a person to salvation, and works bring that person to faithfulness. Faith is the cause, works are the effect. James believed it, and so did Paul.

2:23 By offering Isaac (see Gen. 22:1–12), Abraham endured the test and demonstrated his complete trust in God. His obedience made him a friend of God (see John 15:14).
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Oh as well...

Even demons believe is a statement made by the objector.....

The objector is stating that he believes there is no connection between faith and works. James says that if we have faith, we should do something with it to live profitable and useful lives. The objector says,
"The two are not connected at all. Take the cardinal theological belief of Judaism as an example: the belief that God is One. The demons believe this, but it doesn’t affect their behavior. All they do is shudder, but beyond this, this still rebel against God.” So their faith does nothing for them."

But James very cleverly responds to Mr. Objector in James 2 20-26 by referring to Abraham the father of faith.

This is the true way to understand James. The false converts/mental assent theory causes a lot of problems in the church.... imho
What problems?

I think it helps the church, for too long the church has been a church which has people pray some sinners prayer and declair they are saved forever because they said a few words, without any understanding that the one who claimed to have faith had truly repented or had any real faith at all, one the greatest evangelists in our generation Said before he died, one of his greatest regrets was he did not make sure all those people who walked forward had people they could help teach them and help them understamd the true gospel. I know quite a few who said a sinners prayer at one point, yet did not understand what they were doing, and certainly had not repented, they were saved many years later when they truly repented, and went from a claimed faith to a living faith.

Where paul wrote and strove against legalism, James here is striving against easy believism or licentiousness. Which is just as damning.