Not By Works

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UnderGrace

Guest
Come on sis

I was born spirituall dead, i was never spiritually alive, so this line of reasoning is not accurate and to say it is against logic and reality just makes the argument look bad.
Come on EG :)....that is not what he is talking about .....he is talking to a Jewish group of believers who do not understand that they need to demonstrate their faith in a different way not by law keeping.....

We are talking about faith not our spirit, so lets stay on track.

Okay so for something to be dead it has to once be alive. Yes or no?

We are using ancient words translated to our language that looses its meaning....Context!!
Words have different intent and purpose, they can be descriptive metaphorical....this idea James is addressing false faith just fuels the people who are workers for salvation

b. universally, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative: τῇ ἁμαρτία, unaffected by the desire to sin (cf. Winers Grammar, 210 (199); Buttmann, § 133, 12), Romans 6:11; of things: ἁμαρτία, Romans 7:8; πίστις, James 2:17, 20 (R G), 26; ἔργα, powerless and fruitless (see ἔργον, 3, p. 248b bottom), Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14. (Cf. θνητός, at the end)

b) of things regarded as inoperative, devoid of power: ἁμαρτία , Revelation 7:8; πίοτις , James 2:17; James 2:26; ἔργα , Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14.
Thayer's Expanded Definition
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Dcon....wow you are tenacious.....Love it ....... but really we have been here before, there is nothing any of else can say....imho
Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD, that is My name; 'I will not give My glory to another', Nor My praise to graven images.

Romans1:17
17)
"For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel 'from faith to faith', just as it is written,
The righteous will live by faith.”

Hi Undergrace, we are saved "from faith to faith" as the bible say's, "The righteous will live by faith." Look down through history and it proves that God saves sinners by grace through faith. Our God will always get the glory and never you or I and it has always been this way. "Saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, lest anyone shall boast." no boasting allowed.

Beginning with God providing a blood sacrifice and covering for Adam and Eve, Gen3:21; And it was God who led the Israelite's through the Red Sea a miracle of salvation; It was God who provided a great fish for Jonah and his prayer "Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah2:10; Noah saved the human race by building an Ark, no boarding fee's. And our Father Abraham was credited as righteous because he believed years before offering his son to God.

Question: did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead because of "his works", no, the bible says it was "for the glory of God, so that Jesus may be glorified." There is no boasting in our salvation it is a, "gift of God." If there is any boasting allowed it is in what Jesus has done for us; God will always get the glory, "He will not share His glory with another", as it should be.

John11:4
14) No, it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Come on EG :)....that is not what he is talking about .....he is talking to a Jewish group of believers who do not understand that they need to demonstrate their faith in a different way not by law keeping.....
James is talking to the 12 tribes who have been scattered. It would be a mistake and assumption that he is just writing the truly saved believers. Many Pastors give the gospel and invite people to come to christ even if their are no visitors, because even they understand there is no way to know all who go to their church is saved.

[/quote]We are talking about faith not our spirit, so lets stay on track.[/quote]

I am talking about the faith that is able to save a person, vs the faith that can not save a person,

As is James, who asks the question “can this faith save them?”

Okay so for something to be dead it has to once be alive. Yes or no?
I just proved the answer to that is no, i was never spiritually alive before i was born again, i was born in a dead state. Many babies are born still born or dead, they were never alive. And these are just a few examples

We are using ancient words translated to our language that looses its meaning....Context!!
Words have different intent and purpose, they can be descriptive metaphorical....this idea James is addressing false faith just fuels the people who are workers for salvation

b. universally, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative: τῇ ἁμαρτία, unaffected by the desire to sin (cf. Winers Grammar, 210 (199); Buttmann, § 133, 12), Romans 6:11; of things: ἁμαρτία, Romans 7:8; πίστις, James 2:17, 20 (R G), 26; ἔργα, powerless and fruitless (see ἔργον, 3, p. 248b bottom), Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14. (Cf. θνητός, at the end)

b) of things regarded as inoperative, devoid of power: ἁμαρτία , Revelation 7:8; πίοτις , James 2:17; James 2:26; ἔργα , Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14.
Thayer's Expanded Definition
Using all these sources is great but as you said, we have to look ar context first

What is the context?


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Salvation is in context, not sanctification.

Using the sources you gave

A dead faith (mere belief) is powerless, is destitute of the proper force, is inactive and is inoperative as a means to save a person,

So in answer to james question, Can that faith save them?

The answer is no!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
A dead faith (mere belief) is powerless, is destitute of the proper force, is inactive and is inoperative as a means to save a person,

I think you are missing it.....

Okay ....still working you may yet see this......back to a new strategy

I love this picture but of course not a military operation just me trying to convince you what James is really writing about

Soon I will have just the right words......working....working


.gif
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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bill's question was not dumb.

neither was mine.

you say that we are saved by grace, then maintained by works.

o.k., if that is true, then what is the formula?

if I am to maintain my salvation by works/obedience then how many I am to do? how much disobedience will disqualify me?

I mean, if this is true, then there has to be a consistency , because God is no respecter of persons.

if your theology cannot answer questions , then it is not real theology. it's just an opinion.
Asking how many works are necessary is as dumb as asking how much faith is necessary.

Jesus said all we need is the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain.
I do believe that some have more faith than others...but any amount of faith will be accepted by God.

I do believe works KEEP us saved because in this way we are obeying what Jesus taught.
But in the same way, any amount of works we do will be accepted by God.

There are many concepts one could get into instead of arguing about this...
for instance: If we respond to God and do what He says immediately,,,is this better than waiting and doing it later or not doing it at all? Do we lose an opportunity to do some kind of good - whatever it may be. Do we lose an opportunity to further the Kingdom of God?

Some do a lot of works...missionaries.
Some do little....out of laziness or having no motivation, or maybe it's just their personality, maybe they're shy.
Some do none. There are reasons for this too. God knows us and He will never turn anyone away.

But to say that works DO NOT KEEP us saved is flat out wrong.

This is what Jesus and Paul and all the other writers taught.

Here are some verses....again:

Hebrews 4:3-7
Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11
Romans 6:11
Mathew 28:19-20
Galatians 6:9-10 and many more....

John 8:31, 51 JESUS SAYS:
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”


I think it would be wise to ask ourselves exactly what Jesus taught and wanted to pass on to us.
Could it really be that only faith saves when this was never said by Jesus?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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I think you are missing it.....

Okay ....still working you may yet see this......back to a new strategy

I love this picture but of course not a military operation just me trying to convince you what James is really writing about

Soon I will have just the right words......working....working


View attachment 193423
I fear YOU are the one that does NOT understand what James is saying.

And yet it's in simple English....
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,288
4,241
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Wow can you imagine giving this truth a boring...this thread is being maneuvered down the same path we saw once before.

Be wise friends


I am convinced she does that on purpose, thinking she WINS THE JOKE if one of us gets mad.

I have her on IGNORE, and so she posts negative feedback remarks, still trying to get my goat. What she does not realize, is that I AM TOO OLD to play such Childish Games, it only shows how immature she really is. Personally, I think she has never been born again.


Psalm 1:1 (ESV)
1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;

Proverbs 19:29 (NKJV)
29 Judgments are prepared for scoffers, And beatings for the backs of fools.

2 Peter 3:3 (NIV)
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,288
4,241
113
I think you are missing it.....

Okay ....still working you may yet see this......back to a new strategy

I love this picture but of course not a military operation just me trying to convince you what James is really writing about

Soon I will have just the right words......working....working


View attachment 193423


I like your SPEED READER CAT.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,260
113
Hi forum, the people who strut around bragging about "you need works to maintain your salvation" are pushing a self-righteous Pharisee type of counterfeit gospel. They deserve as much respect as Jesus gave the Pharisee's of His day's, they may, "look beautiful on the outside but inside they are full of dead man's bones." Woe, Woe, Woe unto you, said Jesus our Savior.

Matthew 23:27
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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If it be possible let this cup pass from me.....NOT what I will, but what YOU WILL.........

And I left out nothing....--->hence the all inclusive and or exclusive statement.....
EXACTLY!

Gosh D, please read carefully.

Jesus said NOT MY will
but YOUR WILL be done...exactly as I said...
Jesus HAD to die...it was the Father's will.

And, excuse me, but you DID leave out that Jesus opened the gates of heaven for access to all that were saved.

WHERE did saved persons go BEFORE Jesus died??
I even gave you the scripture.
Luke 16:19......
Mark 15:37-38

Perhaps someone else would like to look this up?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I fear YOU are the one that does NOT understand what James is saying.

And yet it's in simple English....
Oh sure, simple English, someone who speaks other language(s) like you and I, and have knowledge of Mediterranean culture know that meaning and essence of written or oral expression when translated is not always easily captured or understood by others

Even when it is written in a familiar known language like English authors can be difficult to understand. You ever read John Stuart Mill?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
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Galatians 6:9-10 and many more....
Where does Paul say they works keep us saved?

Galatians 6:9-10
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

I cannot recall where Paul has said works keep us saved.

But he did say

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Hi forum, the people who strut around bragging about "you need works to maintain your salvation" are pushing a self-righteous Pharisee type of counterfeit gospel. They deserve as much respect as Jesus gave the Pharisee's of His day's, they may, "look beautiful on the outside but inside they are full of dead man's bones." Woe, Woe, Woe unto you, said Jesus our Savior.

Matthew 23:27
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
You have the right approach Truth Talk....thank you for reminding me. There are times to shake the dust and walk away.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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The comparison is made between a MERE belief in GOD and a corpse......and again you cannot grasp the truth that JAMES is addressing a MERE BELIEF IN GOD WHICH the JEWS had, and to THIS DAY HAVE....they BELIEVE in GOD, but have NO SAVING FAITH.....this is what YOU cannot grasp because your religion has led you into this false belief that YOU, through works, must MAINTAIN that which is already ETERNALLY given dia faith......

nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
Dcon,

I didn't ask you to again explain it and incorrectly at that.

Stop worrying about me and my religion.

I asked you to POST THE VERSE you were referring to because it DOES NOT CONTAIN THE WORD
"like is"......

IF you care to answer my question and not what YOU LIKE to answer...
please post what you were referring to in your post no. 81,899.

Here it is:

He said "LIKE A".....NOT "IS"...........and again....conflating ideas = false gospel...his address is a MERE belief in GOD...not saving faith!!

Wake up Fran to the truth and be set free from your legalism.....

Therefore, we conclude that a MAN is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I think you are missing it.....

Okay ....still working you may yet see this......back to a new strategy

I love this picture but of course not a military operation just me trying to convince you what James is really writing about

Soon I will have just the right words......working....working


View attachment 193423
You habe to get past this

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

That is the context, that is the question james asked, everything he said after this is him answering the question. Can that persons particular faith save him.

I believe everything you said concerning the church today and how people lack faith in other areas, etc etc.

Just in the context of james asking and answering this question about two types of faith and each ones ability to save a soul, i can not aplly those things to james in this particular passage
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Where does it say that works keep us saved?

Romans 6:11
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Whoa!
Excuse me...
Did I make A MISTAKE!!!
May it never be.

The other verses weren't enough for ya?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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Where does Paul say they works keep us saved?

Galatians 6:9-10
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

I cannot recall where Paul has said works keep us saved.

But he did say

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
We shall reap IF WE DO NOT LOSE HEART and WEARY IN DOING GOOD.
What are we waiting for to reap?
I'm waiting for my salvation.

Let us do good to all....
THIS is what Jesus taught and Paul, and Peter and James and John and even the O.T.

Mathew 5:16

Just read the N.T.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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517
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Oh sure, simple English, someone who speaks other language(s) like you and I, and have knowledge of Mediterranean culture know that meaning and essence of written or oral expression when translated is not always easily captured or understood by others

Even when it is written in a familiar known language like English authors can be difficult to understand. You ever read John Stuart Mill?
You ever read Shakespear?
What difference does it make?

Do you think the bible is not properly translated and thus cannot be trusted?