Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 13, 2019
95
16
8
I can believe something

At the same time, lack faith in something,

True saving believe comes with the means of trusting in a hope which can not be seen, and having an assurance that thing is trustworthy

The demons believe in jesus, they however do not think he is trustworthy, nor do they trust jesus father, its why they departed to begin with

Belief does not always mean faith,
Incorrect belief saves no one; correct belief is to believe Jesus unconditionally.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
1,811
113
We don't need to know Greek to know what BELIEVE IN Jesus mean.

Jesus said we must be born from above.
John 3:3

He said to repent because the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mathew 4:17

IF we're born from above (born again) and we thus have repented it means that we have turned from walking toward satan and are now walking toward God.

IF we're walking toward God we now believe in HIM and in all that He has taught us.
God sent His only Son to teach us what He always wanted us to know all through the O.T. but it was necessary to "see" for ourselves how we are to be...and that is like Jesus.

So believing means that we trust everything Jesus tells us (and the N.T. writers who continued Jesus' ministry).

Now it becomes a matter of knowing what Jesus taught.
And here is where I see the problem in threads like this.
WHAT exactly DID Jesus teach?

John 14:21
John 14:23
John 14:24
John 10:27
John 8:51

What does believe mean in English?
It could mean believe someone exists....like the demons believed Jesus existed.
Or it could mean a heart belief...
To lean on
To trust
To have faith in
To follow
To obey (as a consequence of believing)
To be persuaded by that person (that he is right)

Any link on the internet will tell you the above...
there's no conflict of agreement on what the word believe means in the bible.
God sent His only Son to teach us what He always wanted us to know all through the O.T. but it was necessary to "see" for ourselves how we are to be...and that is like Jesus.

So believing means that we trust everything Jesus tells us (and the N.T. writers who continued Jesus' ministry).

Now it becomes a matter of knowing what Jesus taught.

Godsgrace101

Can you not see what you have actually said in these sentences? You are saying that obedience to the written words is how we become like Jesus. How is this different than the OT Jews following Torah?

You are eliminating the inner work of Holy Spirit which is what grace really means.

grace: OT


H2603​
חָנַן

chânan


khaw-nan'

A primitive root (compare H2583); properly to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): - beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.
Total KJV occurrences: 77

Grace: NT


G5485

χάρις

charis

khar'-ece


From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Total KJV occurrences: 156


OT grace of law is inability to produce righteousness but granted in kindness because of faith in sacrificial blood. Outward work.

NT grace is ability of Holy Spirit given within to produce the image of Jesus in our life through the new birth.
Inner work.

We cannot judge another Christians life unless we are perfect in our own. That's what Paul mean't. I think a lot of Christians get caught in works because of this. And none of us are perfect. But altogether in Him, we make up perfection in His body. Each of us excel in some quality He has given.
 
Feb 13, 2019
95
16
8
God sent His only Son to teach us what He always wanted us to know all through the O.T. but it was necessary to "see" for ourselves how we are to be...and that is like Jesus.

So believing means that we trust everything Jesus tells us (and the N.T. writers who continued Jesus' ministry).

Now it becomes a matter of knowing what Jesus taught.

Godsgrace101

Can you not see what you have actually said in these sentences? You are saying that obedience to the written words is how we become like Jesus. How is this different than the OT Jews following Torah?

You are eliminating the inner work of Holy Spirit which is what grace really means.

grace: OT


H2603​
חָנַן

chânan


khaw-nan'

A primitive root (compare H2583); properly to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): - beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.
Total KJV occurrences: 77

Grace: NT


G5485

χάρις

charis

khar'-ece


From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Total KJV occurrences: 156


OT grace of law is inability to produce righteousness but granted in kindness because of faith in sacrificial blood. Outward work.

NT grace is ability of Holy Spirit given within to produce the image of Jesus in our life through the new birth.
Inner work.

We cannot judge another Christians life unless we are perfect in our own. That's what Paul mean't. I think a lot of Christians get caught in works because of this. And none of us are perfect. But altogether in Him, we make up perfection in His body. Each of us excel in some quality He has given.
Grace is the means God gives us to choose to become obedient.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
1,811
113
Its a strange site this one

One person says the new covenant was written to jews who wanted an inferior way
Another says it may take you many years to truly love God
Someone else believes deep understanding is overturning the plainly written word in reputable English translations of the bible with concordances and the greek
And another claiming if you lose your justification/righteousness before God by only having belief/faith for a while you remain in a saved state.
And altogether we are lovely....:)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
10,549
113
As a child of God I choose to accept the gift of grace God has given me to continue in obedience.
i imagine the look on my face would be pretty weird if my son said he chooses me to be his father


John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
 
Feb 13, 2019
95
16
8
i imagine the look on my face would be pretty weird if my son said he chooses me to be his father


John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
God my father has chosen me and this is why I choose to accept the gift of grace God has given me to continue in obedience.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
1,811
113
God is producing Sons. The Sons inherit the house and lands. The slaves do not.

Not promoting disobedience or unbelief by any means. But, wasn't your post the one that said we must understand the Word correctly? My words of course.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
113
Only so far, on the internet, when I find people who enjoy so much quoting the greek and concordances they seem most reluctant to get into such exegesis. Lets hope you are not just the same as nearly all of them. Spiritual enlightenment through the Holy Spirit is proved by being able to elucidate on scripture, without the need for concordances and the greek
Given that the NT was written in Greek under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit then there is nothing wrong with trying to get a correct understanding of meaning and nuances, that the writer is conveying.

A really simple example is when Jesus asked Peter if he loved him.

The first 2 times Jesus uses Agape to which Peter responds with Phileo.
The 3rd time Jesus uses Phileo and Peter gets upset and says yes I Phileo you.

Two Greek words for love, with different meanings.
But only one word in our Bible which is Love.

Given my experience when doing my research into the Greek and understood the correct meaning it has set me free but also challenged me.

One example being moving from Phileo to Agape.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
1,811
113
Given that the NT was written in Greek under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit then there is nothing wrong with trying to get a correct understanding of meaning and nuances, that the writer is conveying.

A really simple example is when Jesus asked Peter if he loved him.

The first 2 times Jesus uses Agape to which Peter responds with Phileo.
The 3rd time Jesus uses Phileo and Peter gets upset and says yes I Phileo you.

Two Greek words for love, with different meanings.
But only one word in our Bible which is Love.

Given my experience when doing my research into the Greek and understood the correct meaning it has set me free but also challenged me.

One example being moving from Phileo to Agape.
I have the weirdest machines in the ipad and computer. I can give likes and all the other symbols on the ipad but the ipad will copy posts by itself and add them to my replies. Then this computer only lets me give likes, and when someone posts a reply it takes me back to where I am replying, so I have to go to the end of the thread to finish my reply. Multiple times. "sheesh"

I say all this because your post Bill deserves more than like. Consider it a winner from me.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
113
You have to remember that someone is an unbeliever if they choose deny anything Christ taught us.
You done this?

Mark 10:21
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
113
What about these?

List of Commands of Jesus
  • Repent—Matthew 4:17
  • Follow Me—Matthew 4:19
  • Rejoice when you are persecuted for following Jesus—Matthew 5:12
  • Let Your Light Shine by good deeds—Matthew 5:16
  • Teach God’s Law given Moses & the Prophets—Matthew 5:17–18
  • Do Not Be Angry with your brother--Matthew 5:21-22
  • Do Not Insult Others By Calling Them Fools--Matthew 5:22
  • Be Reconciled with the one you offended—Matthew 5:24–25
  • Do Not Covet A Married Woman—Matthew 5:27–28
  • Repent from sin by cutting off the temptation, or go to hell---Matt 5:29-30
  • Don't say more than 'yes' or 'no' to prove you are truthful —Matthew 5:37 (outside court is implied)
  • Do Not Retaliate Against Evil Persons Who Strike You--Matthew 5:38-39
  • Sacrifice Beyond What Others Demand You Give—Matthew 5:38–42
  • Love Your Enemies—Matthew 5:44
  • Pray For Those Who Persecute You---Matthew 5:44
  • Be Perfect—Matthew 5:48
  • Give In Secret And Not Where Others Can See You Giving—Matthew 6:1–4
  • Do Not Pray Alone In Public Where Others Can See You--Matthew 6:5-6
  • Do Not Pray Repetitious Prayers--Matthew 5:7-8
  • Do Not Lay Up Treasures on Earth (that Sacrifices Treasures in Heaven)—Matthew 6:19–20
  • Seek Above All God’s Kingdom, and God will provide materially—Matthew 6:33
  • Do Not Judge By Standards You Cannot Meet—Matthew 7:1-3
  • Do Not Cast Pearls Before Mockers Who Are Not Listening—Matthew 7:6. (See our study.)
  • Be Persistent in Prayer - Ask, Seek, and Knock—Matthew 7:7–8
  • Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You—Matthew 7:12
  • Choose the Narrow Way That Leads to Life—Matthew 7:13–14
  • Beware of False Prophets Who Have Signs & Wonders But Work Lawlessness / Negation of the Law given Moses—Matthew 7:15
  • Pray God Sends Co-Laborers To Spread Good News—Matthew 9:38
  • Be Wise as Serpents—Matthew 10:16
  • Fear God, Not Man—Matthew 10:26 and Matthew 10:28
  • Take My Yoke (Training) Upon You (Obey)—Matthew 11:29
  • Do not blaspheme (insult) Yahweh's name for it is unpardonable — Matthew 12:31
  • Honor Your Parents (means Support in Poverty)—Matthew 15:4
  • Beware The Pharisees (Minimizing Law to Tithing and issuing Commands that "make of none effect" the Law given Moses)—Matthew 16:6; 23:23;15:6
  • Deny Yourself, Take Up Your Cross & Follow Me—Luke 9:23
  • Repent From Sin And Turn in Deep Sorrow For Justification--Luke 18:9-14
  • Despise Not Little Children —Matthew 18:10
  • Go to Those Who Wrong You And Confront Over Their Wrong—Matthew 18:15
  • Beware of Covetousness; life is not in the abundance you have—Luke 12:15
  • Forgive Those Who Wrong You, even if they keep wronging you over and over—Matthew 18:21–22
  • Stay Married Unless God Allows Separation For Adultery—Matthew 19:6; 5:31-32
  • Never Seek To Rule Over Other Believers—Matthew 20:26–28
  • Be A People Producing Fruit, Or You Will Not Receive the Kingdom--Matthew 21:4
  • Invite To Meals The Poor, the Lame, etc.—Luke 14:12–14
  • Render to Caesar What Belongs to Caesar—Matthew 22:19–21
  • Render to God What Belongs to God--Matthew 22:19-21
  • Love the Lord [Yahweh] with all your heart, mind and soul—Matthew 22:37–38
  • Praise, honor and worship the name of Yahweh. Matt 6:9 (Henry commentary on "Hallowed be thy name").
  • Make the name of Yahweh known to fulfill the will of Christ in His prayer to the Father. John 17:6
  • Love Your Neighbor—Matthew 22:39
  • Call no man father, e.g. father Abraham — Matthew 23:9
  • Await My Return; Do Not Listen To Imposters in the Wilderness or Private Places Saying It Is Me; My Return Will Be Universally Seen—Matthew 24:4-6, 23-27
  • Produce spiritual profits, and God's abundant blessings will flow. Otherwise, what you have in blessings will be taken away. (Matt. 25:29. Cf. Matt 13:12)
  • Try to understand my message, and more understanding will be given. If you don't, what little understanding you have will be taken away. (Matt 13:12.)
  • Be "Alive Again" / "Born Again" - Like the Prodigal Who Repented from Sin and Headed Back to the Father—John 3:7; Luke 15:11-32
  • Be Shrewd With Money, Using it to Gain Friends to lead them to the Kingdom. Luke 16:1-16 (discussed).
  • If You Love Me, Keep My Commandments—John 14:15
  • Watch and Pray—Matthew 26:41
  • Feed My Sheep—John 21:15–16
  • Baptize My Disciples—Matthew 28:19
  • Teach The Nations (including Gentiles) All That I Have Commanded--Matthew 28:19
  • Receive God’s Power—Luke 24:49
  • Make Disciples of All Nations, Teaching Them to Observe All That I Commanded You —Matthew 28:20
  • Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34.)
 
Feb 13, 2019
95
16
8
You done this?

Mark 10:21
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
I gave up everything for Christ. (y)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
113
Everyone who dies in unbelief is a heretic.
You asked and I responded with

I wouldn't say so.
Anyone who dies in unbelief is not a believer.
One who has not placed their faith in Jesus and made him Lord of their lives.

Heretic

a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

You may say baptism saves, I may say it does not.

But we both believe in Jesus, the son of God who died and rose again for the forgiveness of our sins, and placed our faith in him.

But one of us is a heretic when it comes to baptism.
I can't see a response to it.

Have I missed it?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,249
3,988
113
I have the weirdest machines in the ipad and computer. I can give likes and all the other symbols on the ipad but the ipad will copy posts by itself and add them to my replies. Then this computer only lets me give likes, and when someone posts a reply it takes me back to where I am replying, so I have to go to the end of the thread to finish my reply. Multiple times. "sheesh"

I say all this because your post Bill deserves more than like. Consider it a winner from me.
Thank you Stones