Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Is there a difference between the two above mentioned in your thoughts?
Why unfortunately?
Interesting observations. A connection between faith and works has different ways of describing
the same concept. It is like saying a property of faith is works, and so without works the faith is
faith without works so is dead. Faith is the root, the effect is works, but you can only tell it is
working faith by the fruit it produces. It is like a seed. You know it is alive because of the shoot
it produces, without the shoot it is dead. Having a shoot without the seed is just a dead shoot with
no foundation, and does not prove there is faith in this case.

Unfortunately is just me saying things are not as some would like to suggest.
It would be nice to be agreeable and just agree with the "authority" being given, except that it is
not correct. God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
You’re Catholic? That explains everything.

No, I have never been part of that church or agreed with its basic positions.
I do though sympathise with aspirations of monks and teachers of the past who have been associated
with the church. It is hard not to, as most of our bible and traditions have come through this means.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,251
4,196
113
Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I preach His saving grace through faith, and condemn works salvationists. If you deem me an enemy, then you deem Jesus Christ your enemy. Buy your own words you are condemned.

Here is a supportive Scriptures for that simple logic:

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work [for his Salvation] but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,251
4,196
113
Please let me know where I said I didn't love His Grace.

GRACE FROM GOD = Receiving from GOD that which DO NOT DESERVE, or you can NEVER EARN or WORK FOR.

MERCY FROM GOD
= NOT Receiving from GOD that which you justly DESERVE.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
627
93
You’re Catholic? That explains everything.

No, I have never been part of that church or agreed with its basic positions.
I do though sympathise with aspirations of monks and teachers of the past who have been associated
with the church. It is hard not to, as most of our bible and traditions have come through this means.
Uh oh. Still a mystery. 😐
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,873
1,168
113
Salvation is free. The work was done by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He offers, we accept. Why do some try and make this into a complicated configuration? Simplicity. Christ did it all. Our only part is to Accept.
I think I know what you mean and I am not arguing the concept; except I think your word choice is poor -- I would say our part is to believe.

For me at least, "believe" has a very different feel than "accept."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the LORD Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
GRACE FROM GOD = Receiving from GOD that which DO NOT DESERVE, or you can NEVER EARN or WORK FOR.

MERCY FROM GOD = NOT Receiving from GOD that which you justly DESERVE.
Thank you, for pointing that out for us all again.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,873
1,168
113
I think I know what you mean and I am not arguing the concept; except I think your word choice is poor -- I would say our part is to believe.

For me at least, "believe" has a very different feel than "accept."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the LORD Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household
To me "accept" is like the brush salesman who comes to your house to sell you a broom. You don't need it but you buy one (accept) basically just to make him feel good and get him off your back.

To me "believe" is like the person dying (drowning) who grabs hold of the rope thrown out to save him.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
113
To me "accept" is like the brush salesman who comes to your house to sell you a broom. You don't need it but you buy one (accept) basically just to make him feel good and get him off your back.

To me "believe" is like the person dying (drowning) who grabs hold of the rope thrown out to save him.
May sound like a bit of a weird question, asked many times in Christian circles (note I'm not asking you this)

Have you accepted Jesus and made him Lord of your life?
If so why so?

If I look at the analogy you give above and it may sound crass and not meant to be.
So just a note I'm not trying to be offensive here.

But is not the salesman the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said he must return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being the the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

When the Holy Spirit knocks on the door of our hearts we accept that we have unbelief and come faith.

When we do that then we accept the fact that salvation is a free gift.

I think there is a difference between believing in Jesus and on Jesus.
Believe on Jesus saves us.

Acts 16:31
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Believing in Jesus as a result we seek to walk like he asked to.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,251
4,196
113
Thank you, for pointing that out for us all again.

You forget, the main reason is because in the old version, it gave statisics that verified this software we had 3 or 4 times as many views as those who are posters that we are talking to. So some times I post specifically for those Viewers, who are not comfortable actually Posting. That is the case here, where a young Christian who only views these posts, is not familiar with the difference between GRACE and MERCY.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,135
17,522
113
May sound like a bit of a weird question, asked many times in Christian circles (note I'm not asking you this)

Have you accepted Jesus and made him Lord of your life?
If so why so?

If I look at the analogy you give above and it may sound crass and not meant to be.
So just a note I'm not trying to be offensive here.

But is not the salesman the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said he must return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being the the sin of unbelief in Jesus.

When the Holy Spirit knocks on the door of our hearts we accept that we have unbelief and come faith.

When we do that then we accept the fact that salvation is a free gift.

I think there is a difference between believing in Jesus and on Jesus.
Believe on Jesus saves us.

Acts 16:31
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Believing in Jesus as a result we seek to walk like he asked to.
I think people forget there is a difference between belief and faith also

I can not have faith and also not believe

Yet I can have belief but not have faith.

We re saved by faith, Thus I can believe, and not be saved.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,135
17,522
113
I think I know what you mean and I am not arguing the concept; except I think your word choice is poor -- I would say our part is to believe.

For me at least, "believe" has a very different feel than "accept."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the LORD Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household
I will not accept his free gift unless I trust him (faith)

Sadly many try to work for it yet still call it of faith.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,251
4,196
113
I think I know what you mean and I am not arguing the concept; except I think your word choice is poor -- I would say our part is to believe.

For me at least, "believe" has a very different feel than "accept."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the LORD Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household

There is approximately 18 in between the two. The person can accept in his HEAD that something is true; HOWEVER BELIEF ONLY HAPPENS IN THE HEART (Human Spirit).

Here is a prime example of those of those who only accept the stories about JESUS are TRUE in their heads, and you will see that accepting the FACTS, is not SALVATION.

James 2:19 (HCSB)
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.


They only acknowledged the facts about JESUS were true in their heads.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,158
4,969
113
I believe there is evidence found throughout scripture that proves that the only one lost of the four is the first one.....the bible supports the following truths....

Some saved produce an abundant amount of good fruit
Some saved are worldly and even though they are believers produce stunted fruit that is small in size and amount
Some saved are immature and due to immaturity are easily offended and fall away while producing little if any fruit

JESUS speaks to all three above and even NATURE teaches this truth, gardens prove this truth, trees prove this truth

The churches are filled with people that are faithful, worldly, carnal, immature and EVER gambit of fruit can be found and even those who are saved so as by fire with NOTHING but faith into Christ....

one final word...

The IMMEDIATELY with JOY receive the word <----the word RECEIVE is the SAME word used in JOHN 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name
I truly hope you are correct. My problem with that is the parable is clear in stating that ONLY the good soil produced fruit.

Furthermore, where do you fit the seed that fell on hard ground? Definitely no fruit there.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
I truly hope you are correct. My problem with that is the parable is clear in stating that ONLY the good soil produced fruit.

Furthermore, where do you fit the seed that fell on hard ground? Definitely no fruit there.
I think someone is trying to push a parable too far.
The parable of the seed and the sower seems to have one important point.
The objective is to produce healthy growing plants that produce more seed.

Everything else is secondary and a failure. The parable explains our experience and to
expect that, while the focus is on the good healthy plants which succeed.

Jesus emphasised cost, hardship difficulty, persecution, abuse, pain and trouble, and
after the refining and pruning finally resolution and meeting the Lord. All along there
are warning of those on the boundary who fail. Not dressed right, not ready at the right
time, not investing enough in the gifts they have, abusing other believers, not showing
mercy, not showing love and support for the needy, not loving but avoiding need.

It is not as if Jesus has not advised us of the path and the dangers. To preach the opposite
appears to be opposing the very warnings and encouragements of Jesus.
 

Poinsetta

Well-known member
Nov 24, 2018
7,834
5,033
113
Philipians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Philipians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Philipians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philipians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philipians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Philipians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philipians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philipians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Philipians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philipians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Philipians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


Philipians 3:18 For many walk of whom I have told you often and now tell you even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ
Philipians 3:19 Whose end is destruction whose God is their belly and whose glory is in their shame who mind earthly things.
I have a belly. ☺️
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
If you believe Three of the Soils, have the potential to produce the some GOOD FRUIT. How do you square that with these verses, that is YET ANOTHER Verses of Scripture that is and ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUTH, that gives us the percentages:


Matthew 7:13-14 (CSBBible)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction [hades/hell, Mat. 10:28],
and there are
many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.


The only way you can have the Parable of the Gates in total agreement with the Parable of the Sower, is to have three of the SOILS that do not produce any good FRUIT. Otherwise you create by your interpretation, a major contradiction.
Now you are conflating two truths into one....HOW to be saved with bearing fruit.....NOT good man.....
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Now you are conflating two truths into one....HOW to be saved with bearing fruit.....NOT good man.....
Hi David,

When Jesus obviously links knowing Him to action, in an unbreakable way, why do you resist the word of God?
Sons hate the feeling their dad does not think I add up to anything. To be free of this feeling for some is liberation,
a burden laid down. The gospel could be looked at this way also. The Lord is just saying we are failures, unacceptable
so it is pointless to even try.

Jesus though said love opens the door, the cross gives the entrance and the path. Words like it is easy, the burden is
light, we know we have found Jesus because we obey His commands, should be a clue to its reality.

Ones own experience does not define the truth or otherwise of these words, rather it defines where one is.
Once the light is switched on, the question is then what is one going to do about it?

My life is full of such moments, and Jesus lead me through. I pray He does this also for you, God bless you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,251
4,196
113
Now you are conflating two truths into one....HOW to be saved with bearing fruit.....NOT good man.....

WOW, I just realize what you are talking about. THE FRUIT is not GOOD WORKS FROM MEN, which it NEVER HAS BEEN. They or the SPIRITUAL FRUIT produced by the HOLY SPIRIT inside you.

Matthew 13:9 (HCSB)
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!”


Galatians 5:22-23 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


I appears you are Conflating Good Works with FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

HIS very next sentence should tell you what he was talking about:


Matthew 13:10 (HCSB)
10 Then the disciples came up and asked Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Matthew 13:11 (HCSB)
11 He answered them, “Because the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know,
but it has not been given to them.