Not By Works

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Again you are attempting to speak for all Christians, which you cannot do. Further, you are ignoring the scriptures that inform as to what we are when we are reborn in Christ.
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " the Book of Hebrews chapter 10
Do you not understand plain English?

Anyone who says differently is classed as an adversary and will experience the punishment that goes with it.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
For those who may be interested in the full breadth of the Hebrews epistle, herein linked to the full commentary while verses 26 thru 31 are pasted below.

The Book of Hebrews chapter 10
Introduction

The insufficiency of the legal sacrifices to take away sin, Hebrews 10:1-4. The purpose and will of God, as declared by the Psalmist, relative to the salvation of the world by the incarnation of Christ; and our sanctification through that will, Hebrews 10:5-10. Comparison between the priesthood of Christ and that of the Jews, Hebrews 10:11-14. The new covenant which God promised to make, and the blessings of it, Hebrews 10:15-17. The access which genuine believers have to the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Hebrews 10:18-20. Having a High Priest over the Church of God, we should have faith, walk uprightly, hold fast our profession, exhort and help each other, and maintain Christian communion, Hebrews 10:21-25. The danger and awful consequences of final apostasy, Hebrews 10:26-31. In order to our perseverance, we should often reflect on past mercies, and the support afforded us in temptations and afflictions; and not cast away our confidence, for we shall receive the promise if we patiently fulfill the will of God, Hebrews 10:32-37. The just by faith shall live; but the soul that draws back shall die, Hebrews 10:38. The apostle's confidence in the believing Hebrews, Hebrews 10:39.


[...]

Verse 26
For if we sin wilfully - If we deliberately, for fear of persecution or from any other motive, renounce the profession of the Gospel and the Author of that Gospel, after having received the knowledge of the truth so as to be convinced that Jesus is the promised Messiah, and that he had sprinkled our hearts from an evil conscience; for such there remaineth no sacrifice for sins; for as the Jewish sacrifices are abolished, as appears by the declaration of God himself in the fortieth Psalm, and Jesus being now the only sacrifice which God will accept, those who reject him have none other; therefore their case must be utterly without remedy. This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate - one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system. It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the One, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected.


Verse 27
A certain fearful looking for of judgment - From this it is evident that God will pardon no man without a sacrifice for sin; for otherwise, as Dr. Macknight argues, it would not follow, from there remaining to apostates no more sacrifice for sin, that there must remain to them a dreadful expectation of judgment.
And fiery indignation - Και πυρος ζηλος· A zeal, or fervor of fire; something similar to the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed Korah and his company; Numbers 16:35.
Probably the apostle here refers to the case of the unbelieving Jews in general, as in chap. 6 to the dreadful judgment that was coming upon them, and the burning up their temple and city with fire. These people had, by the preaching of Christ and his apostles, received the knowledge of the truth. It was impossible that they could have witnessed his miracles and heard his doctrine without being convinced that he was the Messiah, and that their own system was at an end; but they rejected this only sacrifice at a time when God abolished their own: to that nation, therefore, there remained no other sacrifice for sin; therefore the dreadful judgment came, the fiery indignation was poured out, and they, as adversaries, were devoured by it.


Verse 28
He that despised Moses' law - Αθετησας· He that rejected it, threw it aside, and denied its Divine authority by presumptuous sinning, died without mercy - without any extenuation or mitigation of punishment; Numbers 15:30.
Under two or three witnesses - That is, when convicted by the testimony of two or three respectable witnesses. See Deuteronomy 17:6.


Verse 29
Of how much sorer punishment - Such offenses were trifling in comparison of this, and in justice the punishment should be proportioned to the offense.
Trodden under foot the Son of God - Treated him with the utmost contempt and blasphemy.
The blood of the covenant - an unholy thing - The blood of the covenant means here the sacrificial death of Christ, by which the new covenant between God and man was ratified, sealed, and confirmed. And counting this unholy, or common, κοινον, intimates that they expected nothing from it in a sacrificial or atoning way. How near to those persons, and how near to their destruction, do they come in the present day who reject the atoning blood, and say, "that they expect no more benefit from the blood of Christ than they do from that of a cow or a sheep!" Is not this precisely the crime of which the apostle speaks here, and to which he tells us God would show no mercy?
Despite unto the Spirit of grace? - Hath insulted the Spirit of grace. The apostle means the Holy Spirit, whose gifts were bestowed in the first age on believers for the confirmation of the Gospel. See Hebrews 6:4-6. Wherefore, if one apostatized in the first age, after having been witness to these miraculous gifts, much more after having possessed them himself, he must, like the scribes and Pharisees, have ascribed them to evil spirits; than which a greater indignity could not be done to the Spirit of God. Macknight. This is properly the sin against the Holy Ghost, which has no forgiveness.


Verse 30
Vengeance belongeth unto me - This is the saying of God, Deuteronomy 32:35, in reference to the idolatrous Gentiles, who were the enemies of his people; and is here with propriety applied to the above apostates, who, being enemies to God's ordinances, and Christ's ministry and merits, must also be enemies to Christ's people; and labor for the destruction of them, and the cause in which they are engaged.
The Lord shall judge his people - That is, he shall execute judgment for them; for this is evidently the sense in which the word is used in the place from which the apostle quotes, Deuteronomy 32:36; : For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone. So God will avenge and vindicate the cause of Christianity by destroying its enemies, as he did in the case of the Jewish people, whom he destroyed from being a nation, and made them a proverb of reproach and monuments of his wrathful indignation to the present day.


Verse 31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - To fall into the hands of God is to fall under his displeasure; and he who lives for ever can punish for ever. How dreadful to have the displeasure of an eternal, almighty Being to rest on the soul for ever! Apostates, and all the persecutors and enemies of God's cause and people, may expect the heaviest judgments of an incensed Deity: and these, not for a time, but through eternity.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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No, he is telling the truth, I don't know of a single true Calvinist here. Less than the Five Points of Calvinism, is not a true Calvinists, and most of us are evangelicals. I only believe in the 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism, and CALVINISTS do not want me in their ranks, because I do not believe in ALL of their 5 Points, and Armenians do not want me in their ranks because I do believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. To TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I like it that way. Because as far as I am concerned, we evangelicals BURIED that Argument between Calvinism and Armenians, in the 80's because it STUNK.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You want your sin and you want free grace. You want the "best of both worlds". You can't have them both.
And you are a deceptive liar....and by your own admission lost.....Hiw do I know this....you just failed your own gospel test by lying about me openly and accusing me of the above.....you cannot even keep your own false gospel of works deceiver!

Everyone pay attention to this deceiver Chris...he peddles a self saving gospel based upon obedience and in the same breath lies openly about me saying Inwant to live in sin and grace at the same time...and the three other false teachers that liked the post liked Chris sinning openly....good luck deceivers
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You want your sin and you want free grace. You want the "best of both worlds". You can't have them both.
1. Grace is not free,it was paid by the shed blood of jesus
2. you want your sin and to continue to live in your pride, and reject grace.

You forget who went home justified, the sinner who got on their knees, not the self righteous proud religious person who judged the sinner of loving grace and sin. Who Jesus claimed was A sinner himself, but blind to that fact
 
Nov 24, 2019
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Virginia
www.youtube.com
What genuine washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit does is awesome! "The Lord God is a sun and a shield; He gives grace and glory; no good thing does He withhold from him whose walk is blameless." Ps.84:11

If we walk in His light, His Word and His Spirit, He protects us. After all, "No harm befalls the righteous, but the wicked are filled with trouble." Pr.12:21. Thank God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ for a better covenant, enacted on better promises through which we are not only be forgiven, but set free! After all, "Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness" as David said.

Grace and glory. Let's peek at what grace is not intended to do. "Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the Lord. O Lord, Your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see Your zeal for Your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them." (It's amazing how much Isaiah talks about the New Covenant.)

Glory is one of the facets of the exchange of the cross. He bore our shame, that we would have His glory; they are opposites. In His "high priestly prayer" He offered, which we have recorded in John 17 (and which hasn't been remotely answered in 2,000 years), He says, "I have given them the glory that You gave Me, that they may be one as We are one. (As I related yesterday, we grieve and lament over the current state of "the church'.)

"Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He would sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He would present her to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, buy that she should be holy and without blemish." Eph.5:25-27 Of course, that's not how we behold her generally today. We behold what Isaiah foretold, "they go on doing evil", and why Christ has not returned. Millions of people pretending they are righteous, pretending they have faith, when it's a mirage. We see antichrist and a harlot. Thank God for the exceptions, though!

Peter spoke of the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3. In verse 11 he states, "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." This is reminds me of Jesus' statement to Sardis, where He promises to not blot out from the Book of Life the names of those walking in righteousness and holiness and who overcome (sin and the world). Just as His statement to not blot out names from His book is meaningless if it can't happen, so also the Holy Spirit's statement that the church was to speed the return of Christ though living holy and godly lives means that the church also has the ability to delay His return, and that's what has occurred. That is another of the countless ways we see the damage false ideology has damaged the whole of creation. People living unrighteous, unholy lives - living lives not by faith but by sight claiming they are righteous and holy. It is satanic.

Grace and glory. Grace radically changes people, making the most unrighteous sinner, such as we see in the 1st of 3 sections of Psalm 18, to be rescued from defeated life, transforming him into the man in the 2nd section who boldly states: "The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in His sight." His conscience has been cleansed and he has been released from the power of sin over his life and he is no longer even informed of them [see Hebrews 10:2 in the greek.] Glory. Doxa in the greek. The presence of God that impacts the senses. Stephen possessed it that day before the Sanhedrin when they saw his face as the face of an angel. Grace takes us from sin to righteousness, then holiness, the result of which is eternal life and from the shame that accompanied the sin to glory. That does take faith!

"To the faithful you show Yourself faithful, to the blameless you show Yourself blameless, to the pure you show Yourself pure, but to the crooked You show Yourself perverse (Heb.)." Ps.18:25,26

"No good thing does He withhold from him whose walk is blameless." Average modern Western Christians are so like Jobs friends. God testified that he was blameless but they went on and on about how he surely had sinned. But Job saw Jesus and spoke of Him twice. His faith, God's own shield of victory (Ps.18:35) is how he did it. In the original language we see that Jesus said to His disciples, "Have God's faith." The righteous live by it and by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Meditate on His Word night and day. Love Him with all your heart. Jesus is the Word of God.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Calvinists also believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, bodily resurrection, justification by faith, etc.
Calvinism is a deceitful doctrine. The things you listed are the parts that help people think it's a safe doctrine. They are the dressing on the outside under which the creepy crawly deceitful things can more easily slip in.

Calvinism teaches "perserverance of the Saints". I don't think you know what that doctrine actually states.
I think it says the saved Galatians would not leave faith in Christ if they were really saved.
But we know that the saved Galatians did leave faith in Christ. Remember, the criteria in that doctrine is that they will not leave, not fall away for a while but come back.

People who properly understand grace do not use it as a fire insurance policy to sin or to be lax.
I agree.
Key being, 'understand'.
Those who don't understand grace are the one's saying they are saved no matter what they do or think. They are deceived into thinking grace is something it is not.

How many Calvinists do you actually know?

How many Calvinists have you actually read or listened to?

Do you judge them based on their words or what others that oppose them say about them?
I know about many Calvinists, meaning people who hold various degrees of Calvinist doctrine.
John McArthur seems to be the golden boy of Calvinist teaching, so I think I'm getting the straight scoop just from him alone.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
And you are a deceptive liar....and by your own admission lost.....Hiw do I know this....you just failed your own gospel test by lying about me openly and accusing me of the above.....you cannot even keep your own false gospel of works deceiver!

Everyone pay attention to this deceiver Chris...he peddles a self saving gospel based upon obedience and in the same breath lies openly about me saying Inwant to live in sin and grace at the same time...and the three other false teachers that liked the post liked Chris sinning openly....good luck deceivers
Some peoplel hate the Gospel...they have made that very evident.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Calvinism is a deceitful doctrine. The things you listed are the parts that help people think it's a safe doctrine. They are the dressing on the outside under which the creepy crawly deceitful things can more easily slip in.


I think it says the saved Galatians would not leave faith in Christ if they were really saved.
But we know that the saved Galatians did leave faith in Christ. Remember, the criteria in that doctrine is that they will not leave, not fall away for a while but come back.


I agree.
Key being, 'understand'.
Those who don't understand grace are the one's saying they are saved no matter what they do or think. They are deceived into thinking grace is something it is not.


I know about many Calvinists, meaning people who hold various degrees of Calvinist doctrine.
John McArthur seems to be the golden boy of Calvinist teaching, so I think I'm getting the straight scoop just from him alone.
sorry, but the criteria you listed in the Galatians quote, if I am reading you correctly, is incorrect. Calvinists do teach that a believer may lapse for a season, even a long season, and come back, or more properly, be restored by Grace.

John McArthur believes in practical holiness, as do all true Christians.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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"Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He would sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He would present her to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, buy that she should be holy and without blemish." Eph.5:25-27 Of course, that's not how we behold her generally today. We behold what Isaiah foretold, "they go on doing evil", and why Christ has not returned. Millions of people pretending they are righteous, pretending they have faith, when it's a mirage. We see antichrist and a harlot. Thank God for the exceptions, though!
Peter spoke of the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3. In verse 11 he states, "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." This is reminds me of Jesus' statement to Sardis, where He promises to not blot out from the Book of Life the names of those walking in righteousness and holiness and who overcome (sin and the world). Just as His statement to not blot out names from His book is meaningless if it can't happen, so also the Holy Spirit's statement that the church was to speed the return of Christ though living holy and godly lives means that the church also has the ability to delay His return, and that's what has occurred.
Two things.

As to the bold ^ , here's how I see it... I believe the word "hasting unto" (kjv) or "hastening" speaks of our "heart posture" rather than our ability to "speed up the [actual] timing of His coming" which I believe is at a "set time".

Consider the following:

[quoting from BibleHub]

"hasting unto / hastening [G4692 - speudontas]"

"2. to desire earnestly: τί, 2 Peter 3:12; (Isaiah 16:5; examples from Greek authors are given by Passow, under the word, 2 vol. ii., p. 1501; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, II.))."

[and]

"Probably strengthened from pous; to "speed" ("study"), i.e. Urge on (diligently or earnestly); by implication, to await eagerly -- (make, with) haste unto."

[and]

"From the oriental practice of placing the foot upon the vanquished (Joshua 10:24), come the follow expressions: [...] In saluting, paying homage, supplicating, etc., persons are said πρός τούς πόδας τίνος πίπτειν or προσπίπτειν: Mark 5:22; Mark 7:25; Luke 8:41; Luke 17:16 παρά); Revelation 1:17; εἰς τούς πόδας τίνος, Matthew 18:29 (Rec.); John 11:32 (here T Tr WH πρός); πίπτειν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 19:10; προσκυνεῖν ἔμπροσθεν (or ἐνώπιον) τῶν ποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 3:9; Revelation 22:8; πεσών ἐπί τούς πόδας, Acts 10:25. [...]"

[bold and underline mine]



Additionally, three times in Daniel is the phrase [or related] "the end shall be AT THE TIME APPOINTED [H4150]".

That, along with other "time-related prophecies," makes me hugely disinclined to believe any person [or group of persons] is causing some kind of delay. ;)



As to the underlined ^ (in your quote, above),

[quoting an old post of mine]

...here's how I'm leaning (toward understanding) with regard to "the book of life":

⦁ it seems to me that "the book of life" pertains to all who have LIVED (one's name can be "blotted out" of this book [this seems to be the implication per Rev3:5- "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but […]"])

"the Lamb's book of life" pertains to all who are SAVED (one's name cannot be "blotted out" of THIS book... one's name is [shown as] only "written in" or "not written in" the Lamb's book of life [see Rev21:27 for the former ("having been written [perfect participle] in"); Rev13:8 for the latter ("not have been written [perfect tense] in") of these two]---and I believe the way that the esv has Rev13:8 is not correct; it should read "slain FROM [apo G575]" not "written BEFORE [pro G4253] the foundation of the world"; and 17:8 speaks of "the book of life" instead [see first point])

⦁ I see a distinction in the two phrases of Psalm 69:28 [that is, two separate actions (seemingly in two separate "books"/"records" [SEE ALSO Ex32:32-33])], "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Just my two cents on this particular point... (subject to "change," I suppose... :D )

[end of quoting my post]
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
You want your sin and you want free grace. You want the "best of both worlds". You can't have them both.
False ....wrong and an ignorant statement.....shame on those that agree.

You malign and slander someone who earnestly contends for the truth.

I know why you do this....because you have tremdous difficulty accepting the Gospel where there is no self.

Believe me sir I have tempered my language significantly so as to not be banned....but I find your words absolutely appalling and insulting to @dcontroversal and all of us who uphold the correct, true Gospel.

You peddle...... we uphold....big difference!
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Calvinism is a deceitful doctrine. The things you listed are the parts that help people think it's a safe doctrine. They are the dressing on the outside under which the creepy crawly deceitful things can more easily slip in.


I think it says the saved Galatians would not leave faith in Christ if they were really saved.
But we know that the saved Galatians did leave faith in Christ. Remember, the criteria in that doctrine is that they will not leave, not fall away for a while but come back.


I agree.
Key being, 'understand'.
Those who don't understand grace are the one's saying they are saved no matter what they do or think. They are deceived into thinking grace is something it is not.


I know about many Calvinists, meaning people who hold various degrees of Calvinist doctrine.
John McArthur seems to be the golden boy of Calvinist teaching, so I think I'm getting the straight scoop just from him alone.
I am not a calvinist, but I have read and listened to them, and they do not teach what you claim they teach

As far as “ you’re saved no matter what you do or think”, read post 118,734 very carefully. And get back to me