Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, can't imagine, but it's happening right now in the church. Big time!

30 years ago it was not even remotely considered that a person could stop believing and still be saved. A believer was saved and an unbeliever was not saved, period. No need to even talk about once saved always saved. Everybody understood and agreed that an unbeliever was in no way, shape, or form saved.
A believer does not stop believing

john said so, you keep fighting g against John.

your fighting God.

god does not give people reason to stop entrusti g their eternity to him

parts of our life? Yes, but that is not essential for salvation, what kids trusts any parent completely
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
I wouldn't say all are pigs and dogs. Some Christians go through what James White calls a "cage stage". I think Christians of many persuasions might go through this stage. Hopefully, not very long
I agree.
But in the mean time, I am free to consider them dogs and pigs and not have anything to do with them, just as Jesus says. I don't have to let them tear me up and mock me. Jesus is actually saying to not let them do that. Don't keep tossing pearls to those who don't appreciate the pearls and trample them and then turn on you and tear you to pieces.
Christ said that, not me.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The real problem in this thread are the people who think real faith, in the end, doesn't have to have works attached to it. To .
discern I know your trying to be kind and all, but this is a bold faced lie from this person and needs to be called out.

this guy bases his whole faith on lieing about what other people say or believe.

this is why some people get angry because it has been going on for too long
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I agree.
But in the mean time, I am free to consider them dogs and pigs and not have anything to do with them, just as Jesus says. I don't have to let them tear me up and mock me. Jesus is actually saying to not let them do that. Don't keep tossing pearls to those who don't appreciate the pearls and trample them and then turn on you and tear you to pieces.
Christ said that, not me.
Better if you preached the correct Gospel of Grace and not works.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This subject touches the apple of so many people's eyes. And, honestly, I think it's because they're not living victorious Christian lives. And if that's true, it doesn't have to be that way. But adopting an ear tickling doctrine about sin and salvation is not the right answer to the problem. Luke 18:13-14 is.

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

But I know there are people who simply will not humble themselves this way. They will go the way of Cain and hate and kill the person who's actions are righteous (by God's grace) while their's are not.

"Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous." - 1 John 3:12

It's an absolute mystery to me that I take to God in prayer all the time how people can know the problem, and yet, out of what appears to be sheer pride not be able to humble themselves the way the tax collector did, and receive mercy, and power to live for him.
Another false accusation based on facts unknown,

NO ONE here is teaching or living this,
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
The passage in discussion is a somber warning to those who can sin with impunity and not get "thumped". If you are a Christian, and you try to sin with impunity, you're going to get thumped.
By the way, the passage is not just applicable to being punished for sinning. It applies to being disciplined, for righteousness sake, too. God will purposely bring adverse conditions into your life--sickness, poverty, harsh relationships, etc.--that force you to discipline yourself to walk the narrow path of righteousness. This kind of discipline is reserved for His sons. I was never forced into the discipline of practicing musical scales by any neighbor I had. Only my own father would and could do that. If we submit to the disciplines placed on us by our Father in heaven the result is peace and holiness...

"Later on, however, it (the disciplines of faith) produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." - Hebrews 12:11
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Hebrews 12 -
God Disciplines His Sons


4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons:
“My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,
nor faint being reproved by Him.
6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves,
and He scourges every son whom He receives.
7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

[note this does not say, "then you have lost your salvation [or forfeited it]"]




[edit: going to go find my last post to add here, too]

See especially the bottom half of this post:

https://christianchat.com/threads/awake-to-righteousness-and-dont-sin.189369/post-4116659
You should read stories of people who stopped believing in God and went back to the world and how they say that they were released from all things miserable about God. To them it showed that God was not real. But what really happened is they came to the point where God did not deal with their backsliding anymore and let them go and stopped disciplining them. And because he did that he has no more obligation as a Father to discipline them. They left, and refused all calls to come back. They will tell you themselves, life gets a lot easier when you do that. So, not being disciplined does not have to mean you were never a son whom God attempted to discipline.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
E

EleventhHour

Guest
@RebuildJesussChurch

Allow me to be offensive once again before I go on sabbatical and you can give me another thumbs down.

Salvation is secure and complete in Christ Jesus and wholly and completely apart from merit or works, works never saved, do not prove salvation and do not secure salvation.


images.jpg download.jpg
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,033
4,456
113
BINGO! ;)

That's kind of what I was gettin' at.
They talk a good talk about how they can live in sin if they want. But that they'll get thumped if they do......but they never do. :unsure:
And if they never do get thumped?

As Discern said which you have responded to above

If we sin with apparent impunity and don't get chastised, we are not sons.
They are sons, I would propose they were never sons because they are not disciplined.

Ps, I don't recall anyone on here who says what you accuse of above.
They can live in sin if they want???
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
And if they never do get thumped?

As Discern said which you have responded to above



They are sons, I would propose they were never sons because they are not disciplined.

Ps, I don't recall anyone on here who says what you accuse of above.
They can live in sin if they want???
Why do you suppose people act like ungodly jerks in on line forums and they never get chastised by God for doing that? They just continue being a jerk. The times I've acted that way I couldn't continue because of my Dad lowering the hammer on me. But so many in on line forums that does not happen. We know because they keep acting the way they do.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
That's the very fatalism I'm talking about.
Surely, God has more than just a degree of control in things, but to say we are purposely made, or not made ahead of time a person who will believe is destroying Christianity altogether for me. That's where I check out, thank you. What a meaningless gospel.
This is because, they never "press onwards to the "prize"", of the "High Calling of God." And, are content with sitting on their free gift. So, they never come to a "remembrance", of what, or who they are/were!

No, Paul made it quite clear that election is based on God's predetermined plan for salvation to be through faith, not through works.
Of course it's by faith, and NOT through some "entitlement/works program", that one becomes saved!

It is however "works BY/THROUGH faith", where one becomes "Spiritually mature!"

But, post after post, thread after thread? "This "free gift of salvation?" Is as FAR as EVERYONE seems to wish to ASPIRE TO! :cry:

So "don't even DARE" in teaching/testifying/baring witness to ANYTHING BEYOND the "principle doctrines of Christ! "DON'T EVEN THINK IT!!" :cry:

Because, YOU will then be "pigeon-holed", and tossed into the "works FOR salvation", or "works in maintaining salvation" "round file!"

After all? The Disciples and Apostles of Christ in the N.T.? Are the ONLY ones that HAVE "Knowledge of God!"
And NOBODY ELSE DOES! :cry:


Which begs the question, then, "Why have so many Israelites not believed?"
After all, they are the 'chosen' (elect) people of God.
Answer:
1) Because of their GROSS UNDERESTIMATION concerning the strength of "the adversary!"

PLUS?

2) God's JEALOUSLY! = Wrath!

With "that" combination? There is NO WAY OUT! NONE! NADA! ZILCH! ZERO!

And?

NO ESCAPING!

The really sad part of this is? It's HAPPENING to the gentiles NOW! :cry:

NayborBear said:
But?
Not ALL believers and confessors of Jesus Christ, are "elect!"


Pass

NayborBear said:

The "elect" are proven warriors from a previous period of time, or "everlasting." One COULD even "liken" them to Michael's angels:
Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

The only difference being, that the "elect" are in flesh bodies.
Okay, you're scaring me now.
You ain't seen "SCARY" Yet! It will be as "scary", as it will be SO INCREDIBLY SAD!

There's a tiny shred of truth in what you're saying here.
God does know ahead of time who will, in the end, be among the elect, that is, he knows who in this life will be born as a result of the promise, not as the result of works. And he knows how to position them in history ahead of time to accomplish his ends. But to say he purposely made the soil of your heart believing soil, and someone else's not believing soil, well, that's where I get off the bus. That for me is the most meaningless of gospels.
Perhaps, you should "get back on the bus."
Then, you may realize there's more then "just a tiny shred" of truth!

And there's that "ambiguous" term "works" again.

Are you speaking the "works" of a "man?" So that he might obtain "acts ATTRIBUTABLE towards "righteousness?" Such as that which Abram did, upon encountering Melchizedek? :unsure:
Appears God thought PRETTY HIGHLY concerning Abrams WORKS!
Ever SINCE then? "Religionosity", has "ASSUMED CONTROL" over that which God HIMSELF deems as "RIGHTEOUSNESS!"
A pretty sad "state of affairs", Christendom has sunken into. Ain't it? :cry:


NayborBear said: If you be a thinkin' there's not a whole lotta differences between that which "the serpent" (Adam and Eve) done, what the "Pharoah" (Moses) did, what Herod (Jesus) did, and what "abortions" are doing?
You'd be a thinkin' correctly!


Well? I'm not 100% correct all the time. And am willing in the acknowledgement, of when I may "carry a tangent too far?"

I stand corrected, on the "abortion" issue.
The Previous "acts?" Were "committed", because they were SCARED!
The "abortion" issue, on the other hand, is committed, in OUTRIGHT DEFIANCE, and GODLESSNESS! With just a little less fear concerning the "stopping" OF God's WILL!
Rest assured though! "Fear", is "IN THE MIX!"


















 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Ps, I don't recall anyone on here who says what you accuse of above.
They can live in sin if they want???
Oh, yeah. They plainly say that....I mean when you're not directly confronting them about it, then they deny they believe that.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,033
4,456
113
Post #119,148 is our discourse.
You asked, among other things, "What about people who do not trust in what God has shown them to be true?"
I told you. You disagreed.
People who do not trust in the truth about Jesus that God has shown them are not saved.
I don't care why EG disagrees with that. But why do you disagree with that? :unsure:
Wow what a twister you are.

Let's look at what I said and the focus

What about people who do not trust in what God has shown them to be true?

Jesus said "God loves you as much as he loves me"
He prayed to the Father that they may know that.
Yet many I walk with do not get it, even when I show them the verse.
Why would that be?

What is the result?
Would God he cast them out because they do not believe to be true for them?
My focus was that some people who believe in Jesus may not believe that God loves them as much as he loves Jesus.

The focus being the Agape love that God has for his children.

You said such people are not saved.
That's why I disagreed with that comment.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Perhaps, you should "get back on the bus."
Nope, not going to.
God himself will have to put me on that bus. Hasn't happened yet. Don't expect it to.
It's too ridiculous of a gospel.
He could have just skipped right to the glorified part if all of this is just a game of 'let's make robots'.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Wow what a twister you are.

Let's look at what I said and the focus



My focus was that some people who believe in Jesus may not believe that God loves them as much as he loves Jesus.

The focus being the Agape love that God has for his children.

You said such people are not saved.
That's why I disagreed with that comment.
Why did you change the subject of what we were talking about?
You need to let people know when you do that.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,033
4,456
113
Why did you change the subject of what we were talking about?
You need to let people know when you do that.
And you did not read what I said.

How did I change the subject?

Give me the posts before so I can see how I changed the subject.
To me my post was the subject in hand.

If I feel I have then I will hold my hands up.