Not By Works

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Sep 6, 2014
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That's right.
That's why we are exhorted to keep believing and trusting in such a great High Priest.

"14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

Since Christ's ministry is so much better (compared to the ministry of the Levites), don't give up on it. Keep believing in it. If your faith in Christ ends, his intercessory ministry for you will end to. Don't throw away your confidence in such a great hope.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
People tend to caricature those they disagree with. Just because you teach works don’t save, doesn’t mean your anti-holiness or anti-works.

We just need to put these in their proper place

And I will add that someone who teaches good works in a Christians life (already saved) is not anti-grace. Unless they put them in an improper place, ie means of justification or salvation

I know you know this, but speaking to the audience in general
Sorry @Discern but far more than a caricature that was a blatant lie and direct character assault.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
That's right.
That's why we are exhorted to keep believing and trusting in such a great High Priest.

"14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

Since Christ's ministry is so much better (compared to the ministry of the Levites), don't give up on it. Keep believing in it. If your faith in Christ ends, his intercessory ministry for you will end to. Don't throw away your confidence in such a great hope.
That's right.
"That's right" Ralph... funny how those expressions we all use just keeping coming up.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Such people sure make believing (especially continuing to believe) sound like a lot of hard work. :rolleyes:
The scriptures do not support your automatic Calvinistic believing.
If it did there would be no exhortations to continue to believe, and there would be no letters to the Galatians, Corinthians, and the Hebrew church in our Bibles.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The scriptures do not support your automatic Calvinistic believing.
If it did there would be no exhortations to continue to believe, and there would be no letters to the Galatians, Corinthians, and the Hebrew church in our Bibles.
False teaching ALERT.....

Salvation is dependent on faith plus dedication.... WRONG

No one saved under this false doctrine.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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This is a great scripture but it is an Election scripture. Only God knows the elect.

Therefore we are implored to...….

2 Peter 1
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is NOT DOUBT in GOD's Mind, HE IS ALL KNOWING, and DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING.


Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.


Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
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Oh, a DOUBTER no less. You do not believe in the ALL KNOWING POWER OF GOD. He knows EVERY DECISION you will make before the Foundation of the Earth. THUS HE CAN RIGHT OUR NAMES IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB BEFORE TIME BEGAN.


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
G
Of course not... why would you?

From what I have read of your posts you do not even know that "Christ Jesus" is God with us, both God and man.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James did not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. We discover this from the CONTEXT.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Sighs. The narrow-mindedness. The carnality.

Doing the will of God encompasses doing the works of God which is being obedient or living the way he wants you to live, etc.

someones way of life thru their works has more weight than someone with faithless works. Abrahams way of life was counted towards his belief which made him righteous.


faithless works are simply a confession or run of the tongue; especially in our day and age. Faithless works is great or be considered essential for motivation however that motivation should lead to some kind of works or then what is the point?
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
...unless you forsake Him.

The author is quoting from Deuteronomy 31...

"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." - Deuteronomy 31:8 (vs.6 too)

Now look at the condition for Him not forsaking you found right in the same passage:

"They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them" - Deuteronomy 31:

You did not know this, did you?
Once saved always saved teachers tend to leave that part out.


And in case you are high minded and think you will never forsake the Lord because you are saved, consider Paul's warning to those who stand by faith in this New Covenant:

"they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." - Romans 11:20-21

He's talking to people who stand by faith.
He says don't be arrogant, but fear.
Not my words.
Paul's words.
In holy fear, keep believing so you don't have to worry about being cast away and forsaken by the Lord.
Your once saved always saved teachers will hide or twist these truths to suit themselves and the itching ears of those who listen to them.

But there it is right in our Bibles.
Keep believing or be forsaken.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
G



Sighs. The narrow-mindedness. The carnality.

Doing the will of God encompasses doing the works of God which is being obedient or living the way he wants you to live, etc.

someones way of life thru their works has more weight than someone with faithless works. Abrahams way of life was counted towards his belief which made him righteous.


faithless works are simply a confession or run of the tongue; especially in our day and age. Faithless works is great or be considered essential for motivation however that motivation should lead to some kind of works or then what is the point?

Abrahams way of life was counted towards his belief which made him righteous.
This is a lie right here.
It is only through faith apart from works that one is justified by the grace of God.

The fact that you rely and teach works means you do not need a Saviour... just a good role model so then this brings me to the all important question....

Is Jesus fully God and fully human?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Sighs. The narrow-mindedness. The carnality.

Doing the will of God encompasses doing the works of God which is being obedient or living the way he wants you to live, etc.

someones way of life thru their works has more weight than someone with faithless works. Abrahams way of life was counted towards his belief which made him righteous.


faithless works are simply a confession or run of the tongue; especially in our day and age. Faithless works is great or be considered essential for motivation however that motivation should lead to some kind of works or then what is the point?

I proved to you that OBEDIENCE is part of Agape LOVE that HE poured in us, and NEVER was part of SALVATION.

Now you can take your false opinions of your mind, and go away.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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faithless works are simply a confession or run of the tongue; especially in our day and age. Faithless works is great or be considered essential for motivation however that motivation should lead to some kind of works or then what is the point?
Example:

"15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?" - James 2:15-16

"17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth." - 1 John 3:17-18

See it, people? Loving in action, and not just in tongue is how you know that you are saved and have the love of God in you and that you are not just deceived. A point made even more clear here in the next chapter:

"17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus." - 1 John 4:17

Faith without obedience is the faith that can NOT save you:

"14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" - James 2:14

That answer is 'no', of course. Works-less faith can not save you. The person who thinks it will is deceived--deceived by once saved always saved teachers and their doctrines that say your faith 'alone' will save you. That's the kind of faith demons have. Faith that is 'alone' is not the faith that justifies apart from works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Sighs. The narrow-mindedness. The carnality.
The irony.

Doing the will of God encompasses doing the works of God which is being obedient or living the way he wants you to live, etc.
There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

You mix it all together and teach salvation by faith PLUS WORKS, just as I suspected from the start. :cautious:

someones way of life thru their works has more weight than someone with faithless works. Abrahams way of life was counted towards his belief which made him righteous.
We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) By Abraham's way of life/conduct/works, he was shown to be righteous (James 2:21) yet Abraham was accounted as righteous through faith and not by works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years BEFORE he was shown to be righteous in Genesis 22.

faithless works are simply a confession or run of the tongue; especially in our day and age. Faithless works is great or be considered essential for motivation however that motivation should lead to some kind of works or then what is the point?
Those who trust in works for salvation (AND NOT IN CHRIST ALONE) may be "religious, but are not right with God," and have just that -- "faithless works," as we see with these many people in Matthew 7:22-23.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The irony.

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

You mix it all together and teach salvation by faith PLUS WORKS, just as I suspected from the start. :cautious:

We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) By Abraham's way of life/conduct/works, he was shown to be righteous (James 2:21) yet Abraham was accounted as righteous through faith and not by works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years BEFORE he was shown to be righteous in Genesis 22.

Those who trust in works for salvation (AND NOT IN CHRIST ALONE) may be "religious, but are not right with God," and have just that -- "faithless works," as we see with these many people in Matthew 7:22-23.
He has denied Jesus is God in other places on CC in the past.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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2 Peter 1
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Nice try Sherlock. FAITH is COMPLETE in the BEGINNING and FAITH IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, Eph. 2:8-9. All HE is saying is a Living Faith will Mature, as you feed on the WORD.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


WHY DO YOU WANT TO ROB JESUS CHRIST OF THE GLORY THAT SOLELY BELONGS TO HIM?

Here is a quote that
Tinkerbell725 posted.


 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
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I proved to you that OBEDIENCE is part of Agape LOVE that HE poured in us, and NEVER was part of SALVATION.

Now you can take your false opinions of your mind, and go away.
I don't read every post. why would i go thru 6000 pages of intellectual rubbing oneself.

Love is striving to fulfill a role. Someone who loves his wife strives to be a good husband by fulffilling the role of a husband. Someone who loves being a firefighter strives to show up at work. If his works show that he is constantly late and leaves early then his works show that either he does not love being a firefighter or has a greater love taking away his time.

Even under the fullness of Grace those who sincerely love and appreciate will be loved in return.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Works is a universal concept. One cannot use interpreations of Paul or any other books to say otherwise.

A Salvation with dead works faith seem lukewarm unless an infant or weak in the gospel. Growth and Maturity are also universal concepts which should be striving forth perfection. Yet it seems many want to stagnate on the milk or their interpretations of Paul to even go as far as the conform or bring the whole gospel into the submission of those interpretations.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


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Lastly If their is no work then their will also be no accountability or standards so don't complain about the monster you have been complicit in creating. "not towards anyone specifically"

oh and one does not need to know greek philosophy to to understand universal concepts such as love just saying.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I don't read every post. why would i go thru 6000 pages of intellectual rubbing oneself.

Love is striving to fulfill a role. Someone who loves his wife strives to be a good husband by fulffilling the role of a husband. Someone who loves being a firefighter strives to show up at work. If his works show that he is constantly late and leaves early then his works show that either he does not love being a firefighter or has a greater love taking away his time.

Even under the fullness of Grace those who sincerely love and appreciate will be loved in return.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Works is a universal concept. One cannot use interpreations of Paul or any other books to say otherwise.

A Salvation with dead works faith seem lukewarm unless an infant or weak in the gospel. Growth and Maturity are also universal concepts which should be striving forth perfection. Yet it seems many want to stagnate on the milk or their interpretations of Paul to even go as far as the conform or bring the whole gospel into the submission of those interpretations.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


---------------

Lastly If their is no work then their will also be no accountability or standards so don't complain about the monster you have been complicit in creating. "not towards anyone specifically"

oh and one does not need to know greek philosophy to to understand universal concepts such as love just saying.
But you did state this

Concerning the volume of the book and on a macro level he is not God.
So then you do not know Jesus as Lord God and Saviour God.

Since you are a faithful worker and filled with integrity own up to your philosophy please1
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Can you link that? If that is true everything else he says is worthless, and likely means he is not a brother.

There are many places you will find typical "first born" notion about Jesus. As we all have talked and witnessed to JW's over the years you know that this is very much their language... along with a few other cults.

#17
https://christianchat.com/threads/d...ross-and-before-the-cross.189439/post-4120767

#23
https://christianchat.com/threads/i...ns-and-jehovahs-witnesses.189465/post-4121966